ich? or not?

[guinnessguy]

I've just recently (2 mo. ago) set up my 30 usgal salt water aquarium... let it cycle w/ a couple damsels, then slowly added from there. Now it seems to me that my royal gramma is "scratching" on the sand/rock/whatever, whenever it can. Its not a constant thing, but it seems to really be bothering it I think. The damsel will scratch too, but hardly ever. When I first noticed this, I thought "Ich!! oh no!" so I researched on the best possible med for ich that is reef save and got a bottle of Ruby Reef Kick-Ich. I was hoping to get this case knocked out early, before it got bad. Now its 2 weeks later and the gramma is still "scratching" like before, maybe not as bad, but still. I'm not supposed to treat the tank anymore according to the directions, and I am not about to scorch my tank! So I was wondering, is this some kind of nervous behavior or something? I have never seen any white spots on any of my fish. My water parameters are great, temp is 78-79 and check on the salinity every few days to keep up with evaporation. My tank includes the gramma, damsel, a cleaner goby, a coral banded shrimp and a pencil urchin. with the usual compliment of liverock (and a baby snail of some sort that I just noticed today! woo!) any help would be appreciated, if more info is needed just say so and ill happily post it here.

also... I would like to get another cleaner goby but I've heard they wont get along in pairs unless its a mated pair... is this true?

[bkv1997]

What is the alkalinity of your water?

[guinnessguy]

I have fine aragonite and sand for a substrate, and it's about 3" deep, so it shouldn't be much of a problem. But I'll have to find that one out... I've got a basic test kit with high rng pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. but no alkalinity. (thats how hard the water is right?) anyway. the fish store I've come to trust can test for just about everything ever thought of. I'll have them check it out. thx!!

[jhnrb]

Oodinium (coral fish disease) - The effect of the parasite manifests itself by destroying gill tissue. ohter affected organs are not damaged. Oodinium enters the epithelial tissue of the gills, forming visible white knots on the gill tissue. severe cases lead to respiratory problems and end in death. OBSERVE THE RESPIRATION RATE OF THE FISH. IF THEY RESPIRE FASTER THAN YOU CAN COUNT, THERE IS A PROBLEM STEMMING FROM DAMAGED GILLS (LACK OF OXYGEN) OR, LOW PH. Treatment - Copper Sulfate (0.8 to 1 mg/l) this medication is totally unsuitable for invertebrates, and it disrupts the biological equilibrium of the aquarium, therefore, it should only be administered in quarantine tanks that can be totally cleaned afterwards. MarinOomed (tetra) is significantly milder and safe for invertebrates.

Cryplocarion (Marine Ich) - Cyptocarion tomites attack the fishes by attaching to the skin, however, these are significantly larger than Oodinium tomites and therefore, easier to see. Treatment - 1) prepare high quality sea salt for a partial water exchange, airate 24 hrs. 2) Remove 1/2 of the tank water and discard 3) The new seawater (or well matured water of a lesser quality brand of salt) is placed into the tank until it is 3/4 full 4) top-up the aquarium with freshwater (tap,water or water processed through ro system) that is free/low in nitrate until the aquarium water has a specific gravity of 1.017 to 1.018. 5) add Tetra MarinOomed. Lowering the salinity is usually safe for invertebrates, only crustacea such as shrimp and lobsters are sensitive.

Cryptocarion is always latent in an aquarium (and on fish). The outbreak occurs "overnight" under stressful conditions, e.g, when the Ph falls below 7.5. If the water quality problem is corrected, the disease usually disappears without further treatment.

hope something here helps. WELCOME TO THE FORUM.

[guinnessguy]

thanks for the welcome. im happy to be a part of a huge helpful forum!

anyway... im positive its ich. as my damsel is now dead. and im seeing the same spots on my gramma too. ive been keeping a close eye on my water parameters, and ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are acceptably low and constant. BUT my ph is slowly rising (its at 8.4 now) ive also got an abundance of a rust colored algae, in patches over the sand and all over the rocks and some on the sides of the tank. my pencil urchin is helping a little, but it seems to be concentrating on the small patches of coralline algae that i hoped would be growing more.

so back to the subj. of ich. ive done a 40% water change to get ph back to norm. but its slowly on the rise again. and ive started treating with "ruby reef kick ich" again. and im also using the "ruby reef rally" for any bacterial infection caused by the ich. i really want to wipe this out, but i cant think of why its running for so long. my parameters and temp. are all fine. ive got healthy bio filtration going on, a decent protein skimmer running full blast, and i removed my carbon for the treatment like i should. what am i doing wroooonggggg!!?? hehe. i know im most likely missing something, as i am fairly new to saltwater. and even my most trusted aquarium shop is just telling me to buy more expensive bottles of med. to add to the water. i want to fix this for good. so any ideas from anyone would be greatly, deeply, and wholly appreciated. thanks to all!

added 1029pm est. 14/08 <<ive decided to use a hospital tank for my gramma... i know its just a cheap royal gramma, but its my buddy. ill just start it on some copper and an antibacterial something... melafix maybe. then let it rest up and heal for about a month. thats how long i hear the ich cysts can live in the gravel/substrate of the main tank is one month. if im wrong please PLEASE someone correct me. im assuming the urchin and coral banded shrimp will be fine and happy in a fishless aquarium for a month. as long as i keep food in their mandibles. hehe.>>

[jhnrb]

well the cure is listed in my 1st response. if neither are doable for you, then remove fish to a quaranteen tank and medicate as you indicated you will do. keep the main tank free from fish for 6 weeks. after a medication period watch fish for signs of parasite return. if none reintroduce to the main tank at the end of the 6 weeks. you should then be free of ich in the main tank and would have to reintroduce it to have another problem. I agree the treatment for baterial is a good move for secondary infections. Also i noticed you are new to the salt water hobby about 2 months? how old is your system. it takes at least 3 to 6 months for your system to settle in. if you system is not very old, i would recommend not adding anything else (additional bioload) until your system is stable, PH, alkalinity, etc. good luck keep us posted.

[guinnessguy]

my gramma doesn't have to worry about the ich anymore, it died overnight. after removing it from the tank i saw it managed to scratch moderately large portions of scales/skin completely off. i feel like a real failure. but i know what to do if/when i have an ich breakout in the future. for now ill starve out the ich and keep my shrimp happy. thanks you guys for the advice. i've definitely learned a lot in the past few days. thanks again.

[minireefer]

sorry to hear about your loses I had my ich battles to.As JHNRB stated keep your tank without fish for the next 6 weeks and with nothing to restart the cycle you should be good to go.reefing takes time to see the beautiful changes that can happen.What type of lighting do you have?I am using seachem test kits wich you find for good prices on ebay.another brand that people seem to like seifert.

[Reefaholik]

Try feeding it FormulaOne marine pellets w/garlic..Garlic some times gets
rid of ich.Its worked for me.

[guinnessguy]

i was using the formula 2 flakes with added garlic for the fish, and the shrimp would scrape up the leftovers from the rocks and sand, then quickly scuttle to its hiding spot. now i just sprinkle a very small amount in the morning for the shrimp and let it sink as he grazes non stop now (as far as i can tell). as for lighting, i gave in to the pressure and purchased one of the orbit lighting fixture w/ 2 dual 65w daylight/actinic bulbs and night/moon lighting. it really works well i think... i have no coral or polyps yet so i don't absolutely need this type of lighting, but i plan on experimenting with polyps later (much much later). i miss my gramma