nudge me in right direction

hi,
First of all---thanks for all the response Ive received on the NG. You have
been VERY helpfull and patient.
But I am SO frustrated.
Here is my situation:
Back in the 80`s, my wife and I enjoyed a great 45 gallon marine tank. It
ran on a cannister filter, and an undergravel filter with powerheads.
Without me being a real scientist type, the tank STILL did great for about 5
years until a summer vacation power-outage disaster.Let`s just say that the
only thing we found alive was the Snowflake Moray.
Now, 20 years later my wife gave me a great 65 gallon tank and wants it to
be a Marine tank like the old days.
I have gotten so much conflicting advice on filters from my local pet shops
that my head is literally swimming.
From what I have seen on the internet---it seems the preffered method to
have a marine aquarium these days is to use Live Rock (in collaboration with
a protein skimmer)as the filtration system. This sounds very intriguing to
me, but is SO outside my paradigm for a fish tank!---
What usually provides the water current in these systems? Hidden powerheads?
Or do Skimmers provide some water Current? Does the rock work so well that
the water quality is high and appears clear?
This Live-Rock angle seems like the right thing to try. What are some
pitfalls?
Please direct me to FAQs, etc.

thanks for your time and patience

It's not that you can't do it the way you previously did
it, it's just that it's not the best way.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wayne@WaynesPets.com


StringerBell wrote on 8/24/2006 11:22 PM:
> hi,
> First of all---thanks for all the response Ive received on the NG. You have
> been VERY helpfull and patient.
> But I am SO frustrated.
> Here is my situation:
> Back in the 80`s, my wife and I enjoyed a great 45 gallon marine tank. It
> ran on a cannister filter, and an undergravel filter with powerheads.
> Without me being a real scientist type, the tank STILL did great for about 5
> years until a summer vacation power-outage disaster.Let`s just say that the
> only thing we found alive was the Snowflake Moray.
> Now, 20 years later my wife gave me a great 65 gallon tank and wants it to
> be a Marine tank like the old days.
> I have gotten so much conflicting advice on filters from my local pet shops
> that my head is literally swimming.
> From what I have seen on the internet---it seems the preffered method to
> have a marine aquarium these days is to use Live Rock (in collaboration with
> a protein skimmer)as the filtration system. This sounds very intriguing to
> me, but is SO outside my paradigm for a fish tank!---
> What usually provides the water current in these systems? Hidden powerheads?
> Or do Skimmers provide some water Current? Does the rock work so well that
> the water quality is high and appears clear?
> This Live-Rock angle seems like the right thing to try. What are some
> pitfalls?
> Please direct me to FAQs, etc.
>
> thanks for your time and patience
>
>
>

Circulating the water is not that difficult of a problem. The traditional
hidden power head works well. Skimmers don't really move a whole lot of
water, you need something else. I've had in the past as many as 3 smaller
power heads and found I wasn't moving enough water. I got rid of them and
now use a Mag 7 power head in my 7g gal FOWLR, and so far its working just
fine.
Some other ideas http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html If done
correctly, this works real well.

"StringerBell" <StringerBell@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:C1uHg.573$Sw3.359@newsfe11.lga...
> hi,
> First of all---thanks for all the response Ive received on the NG. You
> have
> been VERY helpfull and patient.
> But I am SO frustrated.
> Here is my situation:
> Back in the 80`s, my wife and I enjoyed a great 45 gallon marine tank. It
> ran on a cannister filter, and an undergravel filter with powerheads.
> Without me being a real scientist type, the tank STILL did great for about
> 5
> years until a summer vacation power-outage disaster.Let`s just say that
> the
> only thing we found alive was the Snowflake Moray.
> Now, 20 years later my wife gave me a great 65 gallon tank and wants it to
> be a Marine tank like the old days.
> I have gotten so much conflicting advice on filters from my local pet
> shops that my head is literally swimming.
> From what I have seen on the internet---it seems the preffered method to
> have a marine aquarium these days is to use Live Rock (in collaboration
> with a protein skimmer)as the filtration system. This sounds very
> intriguing to me, but is SO outside my paradigm for a fish tank!---
> What usually provides the water current in these systems? Hidden
> powerheads? Or do Skimmers provide some water Current? Does the rock work
> so well that the water quality is high and appears clear?
> This Live-Rock angle seems like the right thing to try. What are some
> pitfalls?
> Please direct me to FAQs, etc.
>
> thanks for your time and patience
>
>
>

StringerBell wrote:

> Now, 20 years later my wife gave me a great 65 gallon tank and wants it to
> be a Marine tank like the old days.

I would recommend that you pick up a copy of "The Conscientious Marine
Aquarist", by Robert Fenner. Here's a short synopsis of the first section.

There are three basic types of marine tanks these days; fish-only, fish and live
rock, and reef. There are variants of all of these. You had a FO tanks in the
old days, and you can do that again. The old filter designs still work like they
did in the 80s.

With FOWLR tanks, part of the biological filtration function is handled by live
rock and additional circulation in the main tank. One disadvantage is that you
cannot treat the main tank for most diseases without harming your main filter
(the live rock). One advantage is that the rock looks more natural to most
people and brings in lots of interesting critters that you don't see in FO tanks.

Reef tanks attempt to recreate part of the coral reef inside the home. The
equipment is very different from the stuff you used in the 80s. As you can see
from the title of this group, many of the posters here have these tanks.

If you and your wife are really interested in recreating what you had in the
80s, go for that. Or go one better (IMO) and try the FOWLR method. Reef is going
to be a big learning experience and wallet drain.

What I would do in your shoes is to buy an Eheim 2224 wet/dry filter, a good
protein skimmer, crushed coral substrate, about 30 pounds of cured live rock, a
powerhead or two to circulate the water around the rock, basic fluorescent
lighting, and whatever dead coral decorations you like. That will make a decent
FOWLR tank.

Undergravel filters still work as well (and as poorly) as they did back then; a
wet/dry is much better.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

> What I would do in your shoes is to buy an Eheim 2224 wet/dry filter, a
> good protein skimmer, crushed coral substrate, about 30 pounds of cured
> live rock, a powerhead or two to circulate the water around the rock,
> basic fluorescent lighting, and whatever dead coral decorations you like.
> That will make a decent FOWLR tank.

Thank you Mr. Patterson---this is EXACTLY the type of info I am looking for.
I have that book and "Natural Sea Aquarium" on order. I think FOWLR is right
for me. I feel more comfortable having some kind of external filter aiding
biological filtration. Specific follow-ups:

1) I will be cycling a new tank with Live-Rock. The TONGA rock looks amazing
to me, but also looks like it has more sensitive stuff which should be added
AFTER the initial cycling. Is there an "extra-hearty" type of Live-Rock that
should be used for cycling?

2) Can a FOWLR tank sustain inverts such as feather
dusters,crabs,Stars,urchins, shrimp etc?

3)I have about 25 lbs of dead coral and rock left over from the good-old
days. Just curious---will organisms adopt it and start making it LIVE-ROCK
also, thereby increasing the natural filtration?

4) What is this Bio-Spira stuff? I dont feel comfortable with it. My wife
picked some up when she bought the tank. Will it aid in stabilizing the
tank? Is it "may help,may not, but cant hurt"---or should I just avoid
using it completely?

thanks for your time and patience

>> What I would do in your shoes is to buy an Eheim 2224 wet/dry filter,

hi---again---thanks for your advice. I searched the `net and the Eheim 2224
doesnt seem to be wet/dry. Did you mean the 2227 or 2229?

If you go with an under gravel filter (definitely not
recommended), then use the crushed coral gravel, otherwise
*don't* use crushed coral gravel, but use a calcium based
sand.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wayne@WaynesPets.com


George Patterson wrote on 8/25/2006 10:06 PM:
> StringerBell wrote:
>
>> Now, 20 years later my wife gave me a great 65 gallon tank and wants
>> it to
>> be a Marine tank like the old days.
>
> I would recommend that you pick up a copy of "The Conscientious Marine
> Aquarist", by Robert Fenner. Here's a short synopsis of the first section.
>
> There are three basic types of marine tanks these days; fish-only, fish
> and live rock, and reef. There are variants of all of these. You had a
> FO tanks in the old days, and you can do that again. The old filter
> designs still work like they did in the 80s.
>
> With FOWLR tanks, part of the biological filtration function is handled
> by live rock and additional circulation in the main tank. One
> disadvantage is that you cannot treat the main tank for most diseases
> without harming your main filter (the live rock). One advantage is that
> the rock looks more natural to most people and brings in lots of
> interesting critters that you don't see in FO tanks.
>
> Reef tanks attempt to recreate part of the coral reef inside the home.
> The equipment is very different from the stuff you used in the 80s. As
> you can see from the title of this group, many of the posters here have
> these tanks.
>
> If you and your wife are really interested in recreating what you had in
> the 80s, go for that. Or go one better (IMO) and try the FOWLR method.
> Reef is going to be a big learning experience and wallet drain.
>
> What I would do in your shoes is to buy an Eheim 2224 wet/dry filter, a
> good protein skimmer, crushed coral substrate, about 30 pounds of cured
> live rock, a powerhead or two to circulate the water around the rock,
> basic fluorescent lighting, and whatever dead coral decorations you
> like. That will make a decent FOWLR tank.
>
> Undergravel filters still work as well (and as poorly) as they did back
> then; a wet/dry is much better.
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

StringerBell wrote:

> hi---again---thanks for your advice. I searched the `net and the Eheim 2224
> doesnt seem to be wet/dry. Did you mean the 2227 or 2229?

Sorry. I meant the 2227. That's quite adequate for a tank the size of yours.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

StringerBell wrote:

> 1) I will be cycling a new tank with Live-Rock. The TONGA rock looks amazing
> to me, but also looks like it has more sensitive stuff which should be added
> AFTER the initial cycling. Is there an "extra-hearty" type of Live-Rock that
> should be used for cycling?

I don't know. Mine came from a local retailer and is probably originally from
Fiji. I like the looks of the Carribean rock that Foster & Smith sells, but
don't actually have any and don't have the facilities to cure it.
>
> 2) Can a FOWLR tank sustain inverts such as feather
> dusters,crabs,Stars,urchins, shrimp etc?

Yes, to a certain extent. You will want to read up on these in the books you
have ordered. You will also have to be careful what fish you mix with what. From
what Fenner says about urchins, I would avoid them.

> 3)I have about 25 lbs of dead coral and rock left over from the good-old
> days. Just curious---will organisms adopt it and start making it LIVE-ROCK
> also, thereby increasing the natural filtration?

At least to some extent, yes.

> 4) What is this Bio-Spira stuff? I dont feel comfortable with it. My wife
> picked some up when she bought the tank. Will it aid in stabilizing the
> tank? Is it "may help,may not, but cant hurt"---or should I just avoid
> using it completely?

From what I've read, it's a live culture of nitrifying bacteria. Some people
swear by it. If you use it, you need to provide a source of food for it. If you
remember the cycle, food turns to urine, which goes to ammonia, which goes to
nitrites, which goes to nitrates. You could buy a few fish and add the Bio-Spira
in a day or two as the ammonia level starts to come up, or you could add food to
the tank just as if there were fish in there. If the ammonia level hasn't
started to rise, the bacteria will die off.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Thanks for all info people. I`m gonna go with a combo of
Live-Rock,Skimmer,powerheads, and probably a 2227.

"Wayne Sallee" <Wayne@WayneSallee.com> wrote in message
news:hFZHg.1557$xQ1.592@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> If you go with an under gravel filter (definitely not recommended), then
> use the crushed coral gravel, otherwise *don't* use crushed coral gravel,
> but use a calcium based sand.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
> Wayne@WaynesPets.com
>
>
> George Patterson wrote on 8/25/2006 10:06 PM:
>> StringerBell wrote:
>>
>>> Now, 20 years later my wife gave me a great 65 gallon tank and wants it
>>> to
>>> be a Marine tank like the old days.
>>
>> I would recommend that you pick up a copy of "The Conscientious Marine
>> Aquarist", by Robert Fenner. Here's a short synopsis of the first
>> section.
>>
>> There are three basic types of marine tanks these days; fish-only, fish
>> and live rock, and reef. There are variants of all of these. You had a FO
>> tanks in the old days, and you can do that again. The old filter designs
>> still work like they did in the 80s.
>>
>> With FOWLR tanks, part of the biological filtration function is handled
>> by live rock and additional circulation in the main tank. One
>> disadvantage is that you cannot treat the main tank for most diseases
>> without harming your main filter (the live rock). One advantage is that
>> the rock looks more natural to most people and brings in lots of
>> interesting critters that you don't see in FO tanks.
>>
>> Reef tanks attempt to recreate part of the coral reef inside the home.
>> The equipment is very different from the stuff you used in the 80s. As
>> you can see from the title of this group, many of the posters here have
>> these tanks.
>>
>> If you and your wife are really interested in recreating what you had in
>> the 80s, go for that. Or go one better (IMO) and try the FOWLR method.
>> Reef is going to be a big learning experience and wallet drain.
>>
>> What I would do in your shoes is to buy an Eheim 2224 wet/dry filter, a
>> good protein skimmer, crushed coral substrate, about 30 pounds of cured
>> live rock, a powerhead or two to circulate the water around the rock,
>> basic fluorescent lighting, and whatever dead coral decorations you like.
>> That will make a decent FOWLR tank.
>>
>> Undergravel filters still work as well (and as poorly) as they did back
>> then; a wet/dry is much better.
>>
>> George Patterson
>> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
>> to
>> your slightly older self.