I'm finally getting to that point to where I'm either going to have to start dosing CO3 3 times a day, or set up some kind of CO3 drip. I don't want to drip kalkwasser because, if my understanding is correct, it increases calcium levels faster than CO3 levels. Currently my weekly/twice-weekly water changes are covering my calcium consumption, however, my system is soon to be going through 4 dKH per day when my next coral order comes in. I also don't have my sump up and going yet and am afraid to drip kalkwasser on the surface of my little tank. Are there any objections to mixing up a batch of Seachem Reef Builder and dripping it?
C03 Drip
- Thread starter Epos
- Start date
ccCapt
Reef Hacker
co3 is carbon trioxide. What are you trying to accomplish and how is that related to calcium depletion?
CO3 is the carbonate ion. My water changes take care of my calcium levels, so I don't want to dose kalkwasser for that and various other reasons. I do, however, need to get some kind of steady carbonate addition to my tank during the daytime and I can't afford a calcium reactor. So is it ok for me to mix up a batch of my buffer of choice and calculate how much and how fast it needs to be dripped into my tank so that it increases my dKH at the same rate my corals use it. I didn't know if aqueous buffer was going to react with the air and go bad or if it would clog up the line too quickly.
ccCapt
Reef Hacker
I really don't know what to say. You have some wild chemistry theory going on. All I can suggest is you do LOTS of reading to get a better understanding of the real chemistry in your system.
The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 2: What Chemicals Must be Supplemented[SIZE=-1] by Holmes-Farley, Randy[/SIZE]
A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH[SIZE=-1] by Holmes-Farley, Randy[/SIZE]
Calcium and Alkalinity[SIZE=-1] by Holmes-Farley, Randy[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]An Improved Do-It-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System[SIZE=-1] by Holmes-Farley, Randy[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 2: What Chemicals Must be Supplemented[SIZE=-1] by Holmes-Farley, Randy[/SIZE]
A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH[SIZE=-1] by Holmes-Farley, Randy[/SIZE]
Calcium and Alkalinity[SIZE=-1] by Holmes-Farley, Randy[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]An Improved Do-It-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System[SIZE=-1] by Holmes-Farley, Randy[/SIZE][/SIZE]
I don't know how you ever came up with that prediction, but that's almost 2x the amount of alk I dose in my 125 full of SPS. If this is for your 26g, I find that prediction very hard to believe...unless you have lots of abiotic precipitation.
[/SIZE]
My system already goes through 3 dKH per day. On Monday or Tuesday I'm adding a Montipora Mollis (about 4 inches in diameter), and an Acropora that is about 6 Inches in Height and probably branching 3 Inches in diameter. There aren't near as many calcium and carbonate ions in my system as there are in a 125g system. Nonetheless the corals are still going to consume the same amount of minerals in my tank as in any other tank. So while their addition may not increase the load greatly in a 125, in my 26 they're going to be pulling at least 1 dKH on their own every day. There are roughly 5 times the amount of chemicals in a 125 than in my system, so it stands to reason that the addition of a coral to my tank will have 5 times the impact on my chemical levels than they would in a 125. Since these will account for another 1/3 of my current stock, I can expect them to use 1/3 of what my system currently uses. So their addition will probably be my current dKH consumption, plus 1/3 of it= 4 dKH per day total system consumption. (dKH is another measure of carbonate alkalinity)
yote
In Memoriam
You've got what,15 good sized SPS frags in that 26?
ccCapt
Reef Hacker
WOW I guess you didn't take the time to read any of the article I posted. That statement makes absolutely no sense, but if you think you have a grasp on reef chemistry you're good to go.
Let's say for example we have the same alk reading in our tanks. If I put 2ml of MY water in a test tube and the alk test at 8 dKH, what you are saying is since I have 5x the amount of chemicals YOUR 2ml will test 1.6 dKH? My tank may have 5x the amount of chemicals...because my tank has 5x the volume of water. 8 dKH (2.8 meq/l) is 8 dKH (2.8 meq/l) whether it comes out of a 1 gal bowl or 1,000g reef.
daugherty
part time reefer
ccapt is right 1 dkh is the same amount in any tank it does not matter what size tank it is it still requires the same amount of minerals to make that level
dcantucson
Reef pro
He has an interesting thought process though.
No, you've misunderstood me. dKH is a measure of the Parts per Million of carbonate in a system. The parts per million in my tank and yours is exactly the same if we have the same dKH measure, however, it takes 5 times the chemicals to move your system 1 dKH than it does to move mine 1 dKH. So what i'm saying is this. When you put a big acro colony in your tank, let's say it uses 1 quarter teaspoon of carbonate a day. In a 125 that measures out to be roughly 1/6 of a dKH (you can check if you like). However, a quarter teaspoon of buffer in my tank = 2 dKH. (Again, you can test this if you like those numbers are accurate if you use kent superbuffer or brightwell's product or seachem reefbuilder). There are not the same amount of minerals in my tank as in a 125 because dKH is a measure of the Parts Per Million of the carbonate ion, that's why the testkit works for every system. However, there actually are roughly 1/5 of the minerals in my tank as in capts, it's exactly like I quarantined off 26 gallons of his system. They have the same parts per million of every element, however, the 26 gallons that were quarantined off only contain about 1/5 of the minerals of his total system.
Last edited:
tankedchemist
Reef enthusiast
Technically, this is correct. CO3 is carbon trioxide.
The issue here is Epos means (CO3)2- and cc is talking about CO3. you're both right in different contexts. :)
All right, the fundamental debate here is one of concentration (dKH) versus absolute amounts of something (what us dorky chemists call moles). NOW, as a random example of this, let's say we've got 11 dKH. this is equivalent to appx 4 milliequivelants/L, or about 200 ppm calcium carbonate. this means that if your test reads 11 dKH, then in theory, up to 200 mg of calcium carbonate/kg of water is available for corals to use. This is essentially a measurement of concentration, and doesn't depend on tank volume. The number of molecules of calcium carbonate, however, depends on volume, which is where Epos is coming from. The difficulty here is, we can't directly measure exactly what sources of carbonate are in our tanks, so we can't count the number of molecules very accurately. So it's pretty meaningless for us.
SO, to answer the question Epos, if you're adding these big SPS colonies to a small tank, you'll also see a drop in calcium which will mirror the drop in carbonate. both of these parameters are needed for corals. So, even if your calcium levels are stayin stable now, you'll have to start dosing calcium and alk, and/or do more water changes, to keep up with the demand for both calcium AND alkalinity. That's if your system is balanced within the correct (ie, close to natural) ranges for calcium, pH and alkalinity. If it isn't, then you can dose alkalinity; however, doing 4 dKH a day is impractical because the carbonate will precipitate out way too fast (like, in the tubing and stuff) cause you'd have to have a pretty concentrated buffer solution to do it that way.
Hope this helps clear up some of the debate....
ccCapt
Reef Hacker
Very nice simplified explanation. However, just look at the title of the thread.
How does 1 break the calcium carbonate (CaCO3) bond and only dose/drip co3 and in what form is this co3? That is why I posted the links to those articles....to get a better understanding of the real chemistry in our systems.
How does 1 break the calcium carbonate (CaCO3) bond and only dose/drip co3 and in what form is this co3? That is why I posted the links to those articles....to get a better understanding of the real chemistry in our systems.
tankedchemist
Reef enthusiast
(CO3)2- can bond just as easily with 2 hydrogen as it does with a calcium. The buffers can use a variety of different atoms to add carbonate because it's an ionic solution. As for the form, it's a mixture of carbonate and bicarbonate and eventually CO2 (which your articles mention, of course). I think sometimes the chemistry is very confusing to people-- even given very well written articles like the ones you provided, cc, and often times it can help to present short simple answers first, so they have a foundation to go from later when they have the time to read the articles. Just my opinion. :)
