2 quick inquiries for the many geniouses of the forum :)

[AngelLeah1981]

Hey Peoples !

1. I want to buy an RO/DI unit for my 120 gallon (not yet set up) saltwater aquarium. I want the unit to be very good but I don't want to go crazy. "I don't have a money tree out back." ha ha. The thing I'm trying to figure out right now is what I need to look for in a RO/DI system ....just 5 stage? or anything else? I heard that the $70 unit at PetsMart is worthless. shrugs shoulders. I'm willing to spend up to $250-300 but definatly don't want to if it's not necessary. I see the units at all different prices. Also, a while back someone told me they use their unit for drinking water and I always saw this as a plus especially considering I spend around $70-80 a month in Walmart bottled water !!!

2. I'm not even sure I will need a UV sterilizer but I saw what appeared to be a great deal and am wondering if you would mind checking it out for me. I would really appreciate it.
It's #5 on the list:
http://www.lareefclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95710&highlight=#95710
Also, he said "Here is a link to info on the model that I have. They will kill anything that is in the water.

Aqua UV 40 Watt 2 inch UV Sterilizer (Saltwater Aquarium Supplies > UV Sterilizers > Units > 36-40 Watts ) "
Please give me your thoughts on this deal.
Leah

Quick info: I try my best not to overfeed. LOL

 

[RyanG]

Leah you can get a 6 stage 100gpd Ro/Di unit on ebay for like 115 shipped a few people here use it. Biff uses it and might remember the seller. The UV filter question can go a couple of ways it can kill a lot of good things with the bad, most people skip them or only run them when they have a disease outbreak.

 

[AngelLeah1981]

Oh ok. How big of a quarantine tank would you do? .....especially since later on I want a Powder Blue Tang. I know these are extremely difficult but they're my favorite so I have to at least try it. (unless it could get ich and kill all my fish) Is this possible? I hate the idea of a tank going constantly (using my power and water and paying for the equipment) just for it to sit there most of the time with no fish in it. That kills me but if it's necessary I will do it. I would be constantly fighting off the urge to put fish in it. LOL
Thanks alot.
Leah :)

 

[AngelLeah1981]

Forgot...... so the Ro/DI on ebay that you're talking about is dependable? I always get a little nervous buying from ebay but then I remember how shady big buisnesses can be too so...... lol. Thanks. :)
If it goes to 6 stage then what's the best? Is the 6 stage the best? I thought it only went to 5. lol I see 7 STAGE ! wow. Is it worth it? Would the water taste better? / be better for reef and fish keeping?

 

[fatman]

Before you spend money on a RO filter you should check what you have for household water pressure. Small RO membranes are made for water pressures of at least 65 psi. They will work fairly well at pressures down to 50 psi. The performance for a RO filter with pressures below 50 psi usually has people wishing that they had not wasted good money buying a RO filter. Most people with low water pressure end up buying their RO water even after buying a RO filter. Low pressure must be increased with a booster pump, that typically cost at least $120 plus another $20 to $50 for switches and solenoid valves. A two stage filter usually contains only the RO membrane and a combination sediment/carbon filter. These filters have a short lifespan used for aquariums due to our demands for a lot of water. The carbon can only remove so much chlorine and usually fairly soon chlorine destroys the RO membrane. A three stage is typical as it gives two prefilters which last quite a bit longer and are typically changed before chlorine starts passing through them. Four stage and five stage vary in that they both include a DIO filter for their fourth filter but they vary in what their fifth filter actually is. Some add a second DIO filter, which is wise. Some however, just include another carbon filter as a polisher filter. Another thing to check is how much silicate is in the water you get from your tap. If your water is supplied by water company they will have that information and will usually give it to you as it commonly posted online. It is not one of the tests required that they perform for the EPA, or environmental conservation or health department in most states. There are high S RO filter memranes made to remove silicates in areas with high silicate levels. Silicates eat up (cut through) regular membranes over time as they are like little scards of glass in their structure, and tend to readily penetrate regular RO membranes.

 

[RyanG]

Think of the QT as an insurance policy. It might cost you a little to run but its needs are small water a HOB filter strip light heater and maybe a powerhead. But when you have several hundred or thousand dollars invested in coral or livestock the 50-100 a year it will cost you to run a year is cheap insurance when you cut back the probabilities of haveing everything wiped out from some randow disease.

Ich will be a concern with all tangs not just the powder blue. Dont overstock or underfeed and it lessens the risk. Basically dont stress the fish as much as possible

 

[UnderwaterWorld]

I would skip the UV, also make sure you figure out the cost of making ur own RO water to see if it's really worth it and cheaper than buying some from your LFS

 

[AngelLeah1981]

Does over feeding stress the fish?
I don't need 50-100 gallons a day or a permenant unit. I live in an apartment.

you can get a unit that makes clean water just about as fast as you can use it with no waste water and do it at normal house water pressures.

This is what I want. I really appreciate all your advice and help but I'm wanting to know what I need to look for in a ro/di system....whether it be 5 stage, 7 stage, or best filter prices, easiest filters to find and replace...etc. Does anyone know any more info? I would like to know what to look for so I can google a bunch of them and figure out which one is best for me. FatMan, you're some kind of genius, aren't you? I wish you lived with me. I would drive you crazy; following you around asking questions non-stop. lol. :) I can always count on you to break it down. Can you break it down just a little bit more or is it impossible?
Someone told me

As long as you get a unit that has standard sized filters (prefilters the carbon, sediment ect) you can replace those parts locally.

How do I figure this out and are they talking about buying the parts at a lfs? If so, I think I would rather buy it online since everything seems to be extremely cheaper.
Also,

One more thing: How big of a quarantine tank would you do? .....especially since later on I want a Powder Blue Tang. I know these are extremely difficult but they're my favorite so I have to at least try it. (unless it could get ich and kill all my fish) Is this possible- it killing the fish? I hate the idea of a tank going constantly (using my power and water and paying for the equipment) just for it to sit there most of the time with no fish in it. That kills me but if it's necessary I will do it. I would be constantly fighting off the urge to put fish in it. LOL

Someone said:

you can't medicate a reef tank should 1 or more of your fishes contract Ich or some other parasite

So what happens if you get a ick outbreak in a reef tank? .....especially if you only have one qt tank and a bunch of fish?
Thanks for the info! :)

 

[fatman]

All RO and RODI filters that run off of tap water produce at least 5 gallons of waste water for each gallonof filtered water. If your tap water pressure is low and or your water temperature is low the waste created increses greatly ad the amount of filtered water proportionally decreases.
It would cost about a hundred dollars more initially, but I would just buy a RO filter that comes with an already installed booster pump or a permeate pump. This will give you water cheaply in good amounts. However. I am a heavy water user. Moat apartment dwellers do not pay for water seperately. If that is your case, and you need little water, just get a cheap system online, as recommended by Biffer, and add a DIO filter cartridge to it. That should only run $150 to $175 plus shipping.
Totally stripped water that is put out by a RODI water filter system is virtually tasteless. It actually tastes better if you mix in about 10 to 15 percent unfiltered tap water.
Over feeding the fish increses the amount of organic nutrientsin the water. The first brek down chemical of the biological cycle in a aquarium is ammonia, which is toxic to fish. It is then turned into nitrite which is less toxic, and then inti nitrate which is well tolerated by fish, but is a food for algae. Eventaully your live rock turns the nitrate into nitrous gas,or more frequently the nitrate is removed through partial water changes.

 

[Rcpilot]

I bought my 6-stage from www.filterdirect.com

I had to buy a booster pump because I live in an apartment and the water pressure is very low. Just resign yourself to the fact that you'll need a booster pump if you want good performance from an RO unit.

I bought this unit:
http://filterdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=29

And a pump that is very similar to this:
http://filterdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=97

Total investment-- about $225 -- and thats the best $225 I spent in this hobby.

My pump doesn't have any fancy switches or solenoid valves. You don't need that crap. I simply grab the cord on the pump and plug it into the wall outlet when I want to make water. Thats a pretty cheap switch. :mrgreen: When I'm done making RO water, unplug it. Pretty damn easy.

I've always heard that warm water ruins the RO membrane. Thats why they tell you to hook it up to your cold water line. My water is about 60F when it comes out. Works fine. I just fill a 2.5g container and then dump it into my mixing bucket. I keep a mixing bucket of about 8g of saltwater made all the time. That way if I ever have an emergency, I got water ready to go. Just keep a little 50w heater and a 60GPH pump in there.

I fill my 2.5g container with RO water and use it for top off during the week.

My 6-stage unit:
1 -- sediment trap
2 -- carbon
3 -- carbon
4 -- RO membrane
5 -- DI canister
6 -- DI canister

Works real good. I think Biff got a similar unit on ebay for a bit cheaper.

The price that the big retailers charge for RO units is a crime. A nice 5-stage unit from Foster Smith or Marine Depot is friggin' insane.

I'm real happy with mine. It's given me hundreds of gallons of trouble-free use.

 

[Bifferwine]

I bought a 6-stage (100 gallons per day) unit off of Ebay for $60 plus $40 shipping. $100 total, and I've had it since September, and it works great. I would highly recommend it, I bought it from the Ebay store Purewaterclub.

 

[fatman]

I flooded my last apartment three times before I finally resigned myself to the fact that I am not good at remembering to check the water level in my container. Another two times when the float valve did not work properly. Luckily it was a pretty habby apartment in a very old substandard house, so there were no real percussions. Just the messes to clean up and the embarrasmwnt. Now, besides the booster pump, I have an inline 50 gallon pressure tank, from which I get a good 42 gallons draw off. A pressure shutoff switch which turns on and off the booster pump and a switch which shuts off all feed water if the floor gets wet. Mine is set up so that I can draw RO water from the tank before the water goes to the DI filter, this gives me water that still has some taste to it and it produces good coffee. All other water leaving the tank goes through the two DI cartridges. The hose from the DI cartridges jt has an on/off ball valve and length of flexible tubing that goes to a rubbermaid barrel. I like the bar type water tap at my sink, but I had to give up my spray attachment for the water faucet tap, as my landlord did not like the thought of me drilling another faucet hole in his sink.

 

[AngelLeah1981]

All RO and RODI filters that run off of tap water produce at least 5 gallons of waste water for each gallonof filtered water. If your tap water pressure is low and or your water temperature is low the waste created increses greatly ad the amount of filtered water proportionally decreases.

So if I have low water pressure it will cause the unit to create more waste water, right? so.... it would be cheaper to buy the booster pump and the switches and the solinoid valves to save water so that I don't have to pay for all that wasted water. Right?? Even if I have good water pressure, if I buy these things will it save me money in water by creating less waste water? Is this something that can be hooked up and then put back to normal - like in an apartment when you move - or is this a permanent thing that would cause damage or anything like that to the original plumping? I pay for water right now but I don't know if I will be paying for water in the future. I am moving in September.
And if I don't have to pay for water then just buy a cheap system and add a dio filter cartridge to it?
I just found out that my psi is 60-65 and the silicates are not high in my area BUT since I don't know how many psi I am going to have in the future do you think it would be wise for me to buy a ro/di unit with the booster pump built in and the switches and solinoids now? or would it be alot more expensive to buy the ro/di unit without the booster now and then buy the booster and the switches and solinoids when/if I need them? How much cheaper would it be to buy the unit with the pump versus buying the pump later? Only a few dollars cheaper?
When I move IF the silicates are high - can just buy a special RO membrane for this? and put it in my already used system? and save the normal RO for later if I need it again? Is the RO membrane just a filter? How much does a regualr ro membrane cost? and how much does the special kind for high silicates cost?I'm sorry I have so many questions. I just don't want to waste a bunch of money. I want to get what I need, ya know? I had no clue what ro/di even meant and now I'm learning all kinds of stuff. Thanks so much for helping me.
THANK YOU SO MUCH !!! I AM STARTING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I NEED NOW.

Over feeding the fish increses the amount of organic nutrientsin the water. The first brek down chemical of the biological cycle in a aquarium is ammonia, which is toxic to fish. It is then turned into nitrite which is less toxic, and then inti nitrate which is well tolerated by fish, but is a food for algae. Eventaully your live rock turns the nitrate into nitrous gas,or more frequently the nitrate is removed through partial water changes.

So it's ok overfeed as long as I have lots of rock and do water changes religiously?

Also, I don't have enough room for 8 gallons of water. Things are already out of control as it is with all my tanks and me living in a small apartment. ha ha. So, what would you suggest? Do I really need to do this? Is this to match the temperature of the tank water or do you have to let water/saltmix sit for a while or what is the reason for this? Is this something I need to consider or is this unimportant?
THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[daugherty]

i dont let the salt sit for 24 hours i mix it for about twenty min before i put it in to the tank. but the closer you can get the temp the better as so it is not such a shock to the fish. you can kill them that way.

 

[Bifferwine]

It's best to let the saltwater mix for 24 hours before adding it to your tank. If you add it right away, it's not fully dissolved and the salt particles are very caustic to fish's gills.

It's recommended to get the temperature of your new water up to your tank water temperature before doing a water change. But I've found that if you do just a 10% water change (which is what most people do), that little influx of room temperature water isn't enough to change the temperature of the main tank (at least mine doesn't even budge when I add 10% of my tank's volume at 60 degrees). Keep in mind, that the temperature of your water needs to be taken into account when testing for specific gravity (salinity).

 

[fatman]

Your water pressure is high enough to get a good ratio of filtered water to waste water. I do not think you could buy a 5 or 6 stage setup with a preinstalled booster pump for as cheap as you could buy the RO filter Biffer suggests and just add the booster pump if you need it later. A typical setup under a kitchen or bathroom sink only requires you to alter a piece of your drain pipe which can be replaced easily for probably less than $2. There are several types of ways to hook up the water line. One method just requires a cold ware hose going from a shut off valve to your faucet be unscrewed at the valve and the "T fitting with shut off valve to your RO filter be screwed on to the existing valve. Then your hose to the faucet is reconnected. This just requires you remove it when you move, or just shut the valve to your RO filter and remove its hose and leave the "T fitting behind. The other method is a clamp on valve that actually creates a hole in your copper plumbing pipe after it is clamped on. This must remain in place when you move, but the valve has a shutoff, so you just need to close that and disconnect your RO filter. RO membranes for high silicate water can be bought easy enough. They usually cost about 10 % more than a standard thin film membrane that is more commonly used. Solenoids are not always necessary. They have there uses, but each system can have different needs. The main design element for controls through use of switches and solenoids depends on how you wish to control when your filter will and will not run (automatic or manually controlled) and how much faith you have in a float valve to shut your system off. Living in an apartment I tend to not put much faith in a float valve when it comes to possibly having 50 to 100 gallons flooding my apartment if the float valve does not work. The solenoids and valves, and switches add up in cost though. Most people tend to just use a ball valve and turn it on and off. The cost of a RO membrane can run from $30 to $100 depending entirely upon where you buy it. You do not want to buy one from a LFS or even a regular Internet pet store like Drs. Foster and Smith or a store like Marine Depot. Ebay is about the cheapest method, or use a store that just sells Water filters and replacement filters and membranes. Such a place would be http://www.waterfiltersonline.com This type of place is about the cheapest when it comes to valves, switches and solenoids. I buy my prefilters, and RO membranes there, as well as other RO equipment. As far as water make up., I agree with Biffer in that at least 24 hours a head is recommended. Also the water should be circulated by a pump or an air stone during that period of time. If any change in water temperature has to be made it should be done gradually, like over that 24 hour period, not just before adding it to the tank. Rapid heating of water causes oxygen to be driven off, and makes the water very susceptible to having calcium precipitation. Any body that has been around reef aquariums has probably seen a lot of calcium on aquarium water heaters. The warmer the water the less oxygen and the less calcium that it can hold. I over feed, but I also use two protein skimmers in each system and I do water changes weekly or twice weekly in my mother colony tank. Is that OK, it is not as safe as under feeding, and I also make a living partly based on my tanks, and the tanks I rent and maintain, so I take chances for increased potential for profit at times. I do not recommend a home reef keeper over feed though. If one tank system crashes it is not a hugh thing to me, mainly an inconvenience, as I can just spread my coral out among st other tanks for a while. I doubt many with a single tank system in their homes would feel that way though.

 

[AngelLeah1981]

Re: 2 quick inquiries for the many geniuses of the forum :)

See ! I told ya !! Geniuses! ha ha

How much does a ball valve cost? I see feed valve, angle valve, tap valve, etc. on the site you sent me fatman.

My tank will be set up in Sept/Oct and I want the ro/di now. Can I make as much water as I want to drink? ....or do I have to produce the maximum gpd daily? Would it be ok if it didn't produce any water at all for a few days? ....or if I went out of town a couple weeks or so? Is it true that when you start using a filtration system you have to constantly use it so it won't build up bacteria? ....or can I just produce as much as I please?

Thank you guys !!!!
As Wayne and Garth used to say, "I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy." :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown: LOL !

 

[AngelLeah1981]

Here's a couple more questions. sorry.

I am VERY sensitive to water taste. So If I buy a 5 stage unit which is what I'm leaning more towards now I will have to add something to the water to drink it? ...to replace the natural electrolytes? Does it have a taste? Anyone have a link to this? ...sounds awful. Do I add it to water I'm going to drink AND for the fish? Do you have to wait a period of time to drink the water after adding this stuff?
My tank is 120 gallon. How many gpd do you all suggest? Does it even matter much?

If I don't buy a pressure tank and faucet how big does the storage container need to be? I won't be setting up my 120 gallon for a few months so until then can I just make as much water as I can drink? Or do you have to do so much a day? Is it true you have to constantly use the filters so bacteria doesn't develop?
I hope someone can answer this.

Also, someone was telling me if I buy a SpectraPure I will have to add stuff to the water to drink it. Is this true? ....or is this only true with the SpectraPure? Maybe you can't get the water after RO maybe you can only get the water out of the filter after the DI. I'm not sure. Here is the link though and the model is called MaxCap. http://www.spectrapure.com/St_rodi_systems.htm
One more thing. I can't stand water that has a taste to it. Oddly enough I even think Evian water and Dasani taste bad....because of this do you think I need to buy a unit this expensive? It's $330 !!

edit: Oh, I just realized I asked the same quesiton twice. Sorry. ha ha. (blush)

 

[fatman]

Water that has been run through a RO filter to most people has no taste, if it runs through both an RO filter and a DI filter it absolutely has no taste. Most medical professionals as well as RO manufacturers recommend that you add 5 to 15 percent unfiltered tap water to your RO water or RODI water to impart some taste. It will not hurt you to drink pure water from your RO or RODI filter, however it is said not to be thirst quenching. I tapped my water line between the RO filter and the DI filter, for drinking water, as my RO filter water still has almost 5 percent total dissolved solids in it prior to reaching the DIO filters. A typical pressure tank for RO filters is only about a 2 gallon pressure tank. Just large enough to store drinking and cooking water. It makes excellent espresso. You can use, however any pressure tank size you want. A ball valve for the plastic tubing typically entering or exiting a RO filter is readily available as a Johnny Quest type fitting (press on, no wrenchs needed) at Home Depot for around $3. You could readily get along with the under the sink models that are made for a typical home. They come with a small pressure tank and faucet. You would only need to add a "t" fitting and a DI filter for a tap off the RO water line for your Reef tanks water. They are readily available at Sam's Club, Home Depot and on line. About $125 to $200, with cost mainly being brand dependent. A brand name like GE would be $150, while a Culligan would be $250, off brands on line for $100-150 plus shipping. The DI canister and cartridge would run another $50 to $60. $25 for tubing, fittings and valves. I just bought a Commercial RO water filter from a LFS that is going out of bussiness. $400 for a used RO filter. Sounds like a lot, but it is over $3500 new. It runs as a batch filter. That means that it runs off a container of water. Water is pulled out of a container (non pressurized) by the RO filters pump which operates the RO filter at 125 psi, the waste water goes back to the same container. The finished water is sent by the RO filters pump to a large (1000) gallon plastic tank (unpressurized). The water is run through a double cylinder salt water fed softener, with seperate salt refreshner tank, before it goes to two large sediment filters and two carbon filters then to first contianer were it is pumped to RO filter. The water level in the first container is maintained by a float valve with an overflow to drain. It did not utilize DI filters and the large storage tank did not come with the system (shucks). I think I did very well for $400. The RO filter membrane is 3 inches in diameter and 36 inches long. It has flow meters, lights, buzzers and the whole works. Makes my old system look like a toy.
OK, so the write up is a little long. Whats new about that. It is a little shoter than the last one. Really!

 

[Reefgyrl]

I purchased an ro unit on ebay a few years ago for $99. and it was a piece of crap. It seemed to work great, but when I tested the water it was junk. Now I just go to the local grocery and fill up. Much cheaper