Adding a shrimp to aid in cycle question

[fatman]

You got the right Product (chemicals) in purchasing Seachem Reef Buffer. The name causes confusion in several ways, your experiencing a couple of them, and I am afraid I probably causes a lot of it with my explanations. Use the Seachem Reef Buffer, but add no more than recommended to raise the by pH 0.2 at a time, and wait at least several hours between each rise. I would use two level teaspoons at a time. Add the chemicals to a cup of fresh water, and dissolve before adding to tank. Too large of a rise in a quick fashion can cause potential precipitation of calcium. If you find at some point your pH has been raised to much it can be lowered with small amounts of unflavored carbonated water. Lowering of pH should be done slowly also. Adding carbonated water is essentially adding carbon dioxide, which forms carbonic acid which leads to a lowering of the pH. The amounts I recommended are based on your tank holding 40 gallons after subtracting for things displacing water in tank, rock, sand etc.

 

[Altohombre]

I am glad I got the right product. I have been wondering about what you mentioned about the actual amount of gallons my tank has. It is technically a 46 gallon, but with the rocks and 2" sandbed and some equip I figure that the gallons are lower. When buying chemical products and they say a gallon amount are they using the original tank size or an estimate of how many gallons are in there atm? It seems very easy to add too much or too little without a good explanation.

 

[fatman]

They just figure gallon size by the number of square inches in a tank. They typically figure all the way to the top of the tank even though the lip for a glass cover is below that. a lot of custom manufacturers and even some mass marketers use the outside measurements to calculate the size. I am not sure right out of hand, but I believe it is 231 square inches to one gallon. Anyone can add a correction if they know that is wrong. They do not account for displacement of sand, rocks etc., nor do they account for additions such as sumps and filters, that is left up to the individual aquarist. :Cheers:

 

[Altohombre]

I tested my tank again today (Thursday 1/24) 2 days after my last test and these are my results after adding the shrimp:

pH: 7.8 (went up .4)
Ammonia: 0 (went down .50)
Nitrite: 1.0 (same)
Nitrate: 5 or 10 (can't tell, because on API the color is identical)



After doing this test I added 2 tsp of Seachem Reef Buffer to hopefully raise the pH .2 and do whatever it does to the Ammonia.

 

[fatman]

Allegedly and theoretically you can not raise the pH to high with the Reef Buffer. So I would try a couple doses 4 hours or so apart. If they do raise the pH then I would continue to use it until I got the pH up to around 8.2 or 8.3. If it does not change the pH then you will have to use to much at this time to have an effect if any. I would try though. The pH problem you are having is not typical so anything you do should be done slowly in small increments. Your ammonia level never seemed to go up high enough to cause anything that would lower your pH so much. Carbon dioxide is used by a lot of the water treatment plants to lower pH after water softening with lime and soda ash, but that should have disipated prior to now.

 

[Altohombre]

I put my powerhead closer to the top and it is causing a nice ripple effect. I also added 4 tsp in total of the Reef Buffer today so that should raise my pH from 7.8 to 8.2 hopefully.

 

[fatman]

You should know when you check again. The reading will be lowest in the morning if there is any photosynthesis going on during the day. The ripple effect should make sure you have good gas exchange going on at the water surface. Nothing else you could really do but a water change that would make a difference, given what you have already done. Definitely do not add anything organic to your tank now, like fish food or shrimp. You have removed any thing that is left of the shrimp haven't you? If not and you see any visible remains please remove them, as your small marine life prefers good water conditions also. Your using both live rock and live sand so you really should not have much of a cycling as you just have the die off caused by what ever the sand and rock experienced between where you purchased it and when you put it in your tank. If you bought it at a local pet store your cycle could have been minute until the shrimp was introduced. However the fact that your ammonia went down and your pH is going up looks like your bacterial levels in your rock and sand are multiplying real well already as a dead shrimp is a heavy bioload, and your sand and rock are performing good considering you just set up the tank. I think your tank is going to do just fine!

 

[Altohombre]

thank you. I will take the shrimp out now.

 

[kimoy]

Oceanic Sea Salt. Salinity is a 1.022. I just added some more salt and hoping to make it to 1.023. I added a somewhat thawed out shrimp about 2 inches long. It somehow floated into the corner of the tank near my heater and my filter intake which I am not thrilled about but will have to do for now because I can't get to it unless I take my hood and lighting off.

when you said you added more salt, how did you do it?

 

[Altohombre]

I mixed it in a pitcher and poured it in little amounts.

 

[fishbait]

I hope it's not to late and you allready added 4 tsp of the buffer. you will not have to dose anywhere near what the bottle says. I don't know if their doseing recomendation is for water that has 0 ph or what. but all it has ever taken in my tank is 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. I added the recomended dose to my tank when I first set it up, and it precipitated. It took forever to scrape all the white crap off my glass. luckily, this happened when my tank was still cycling, and I didn't have any livestock.

 

[Altohombre]

I have already added the 4 tsp on Thursday however I have not seen any difference in the water or tank. I will be checking pH and the other tests today (Sat).

 

[Damseluver]

Yikes; I sure am glad cycling was not this complicated when I started in the hobby.

For what its worth the next tank you set up (and if your like most there will likely be a next tank) just set up your equipment toss in some inexpensive base rock, dose the tank with amquel and throw in a few three dollar damsels then pretty much ignore it for about seventeen days. Your done.

After that net out the damsels (or have a damsel reef like I do) replace with fish of equivalent bio load and add cured live rock as expendable income allows.

You will not kill off a bunch of high dollar live rock cycling with it in the tank and the expense of LR which is a high one can be spread out over months as you tank matures.

 

[Altohombre]

luckily my LR doesn't seem to be dying off too much. It still looks pretty nice and has different colors on it (especially the Lalo). I'm not really sure if the shrimp thing did much. I only had it in about 2-3 days and took it out with a big mush of shrimp slime left.

 

[Altohombre]

updated cycle test results 1/26 (one full week)

pH: 8.0 (up .2)
Amm: .25 (up .25)
Nitrite: 1.0 (same)
Nitrate: 5 or 10 (impossible to tell the difference)

 

[fatman]

Your ammonia is still up because the shrimp remained until recently. I am quite sure there are a lot of dissolved organic solvents in your tank from that shrimp. The fact that your pH went up is definitely due to the Reef Buffer addition as your ammonia and nitrite are both still elevated. I would dose with the Reef Buffer one more time and expect another climb in pH. Hopefully it will rise to at least 8.2. The ammonia and nitrite will start dropping as soon as the bacteria multiply more. That rotting shrimp was probably equal to the bioload placed by 25 or 20 small fish or more. I bet you do not add a shrimp with your next tank cycle. There is ALWAYS enough organics added by live rock and or live sand to cycle a tank without adding fish, shrimp or any thing else. It is different if your starting out with clean sand and nothing else. Not very many people are prepared for cycling a tank under those conditions unless they use aged marine tank water or add something organic. Your progressing just fine, just a little side stepping with the shrimp. Please do not consider sacrificial fish as a sane cycling method.

 

[Altohombre]

The only reason I put the shrimp in was because I was told it would be the same as when I introduce my first fish, but this way the fish wouldn't feel any impact, just the frozen shrimp. It was only in the tank for about 2 days. I have no intention of adding a fish until my tank is completely cycled, water changes have been done, my salinity has been checked by my refractometer (on its way), and I have added about 15-20 snails.

 

[fatman]

:frustrat: Your tank would have cycled fine without the shrimp. I am sorry people told you to dd shrimp. Any organics introduced to your tank starts a cycling. You introduced organics by introducing live rock and live sand. Depending on the amount of organics introduced the intensity level can be pre arranged, IE a hard cycle would be a cycle where your ammonia quickly climbs unnaturally high and therefore forces the beneficial bacteria to multiply and turn nitrites formed by ammonia break down into nitrate quickly. All caused by an extreme level of organic introduction. However most tanks do not have the capacity for much denitrification so the nitrates build up and must be reduced by water changes. Deep sand beds are good at denitrification (turning nitrates into a gas), as are the oxygen deprived bacteria living deep within live rock. The typical shallow sand bed does not, or does so very poorly, and live rock contain very little of the denitrification bacteria to turn nitrate to a gas. The bacteria that turn nitrites into nitrates is an oxygen dependent bacteria and therefore is mostly on the surface and near the surface of live rock and live sand therefore is prone to being killed off by changes in conditions, removal from water, storage in low oxygen conditions etc.. The bacteria is seldom ever completely killed off and therefore it can repopulate your live rock and live sand. However, trying to do such things quickly also means unnatural stress on the rest of your system, like the pH, alkalinity, dissolved oxygen content, redox. It usually means a lot of death of higher life forms, like zoo plankton and fish and such. A lot of people are not very patient when it comes to processes which are naturally slow. Cycling is a naturally slow process. Some people think what they kill off initially is OK as they can quickly add a level of fish which would be an overload if done after a slow mild cycling with out causing another spike in ammonia and the follow up problems like low pH, nitrites and nitrates. If you do things slowly you preserve more life forms and maintain more natural diversity. You develop and maintain a system with more differing strains of bacteria and have therefore a broader more diverse base for continued growth with fewer chances of system crash due to overdeveloped narrow based bacterial systems.
What were we talking about. Oh yeah, hopefully people live and learn instead of living without learning. I do not mean to offend you , just warn you. Lesson, "Do not add shrimp or food on top of normally present organics to cycle a tank or cure live rock, no matter what someone tells you in the future, it is not worth it." It wasn't worth it 35 years ago, 25 years ago, 10 years ago and still is not worth it now, yet people still do it. :^: Maybe this should have been developed into an article, whoops. :bounce:

 

[Bifferwine]

I recommend cycling using a shrimp if you have cured live rock, or not enough live rock. I think using a shrimp is one of the best ways to cycle a tank.

 

[fatman]

Any organic matter that is breaking down will start and feed sufficiently a beginning cycle adequate enough to allow gradual safe stocking of a tank. Large amounts of decomposing organic matter offer a lot more feed stock than necessary and just kill lifeforms and cause imbalances,but yes a cycle also will occur. Moderation is safer and more than adequate. Next people will be starting cycles with a filleted salmon, or perhaps a whole one. I disagree with non moderation in this case. But I will continue with heavy circulation, crisp heavy lighting and strong skimming for dark skimmate. Course I also am one for not mixing fish with my coral. We all be different. Oh well. If everybody was like me there woud be no need for the rest of you. :twocents: