alkalinity

Discussion in 'Reef Fishes' started by Dinky, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. Dinky

    Mike Imbler Guest

    I have to assume Boomer won, because after a period of extreme tolerance, I placed stoutman in my killfile. Boomer has been of very high value in this and other aquarium groups. His patience in answering the same questions from different reefers over and over again is greater than mine would be. He appears to have the respect of other well respected, and helpful resources. Stoutman came in touting his PHD, and hasn't appeared to be helpful to me. I believe most people of intelligence would assess the interactions of a group, and the value of the members before engaging in a prolonged, self aggrandizing, argument. If it weren't for posters like Boomer, I wouldn't be reading this newsgroup. Conversely, posters like Stoutman would discourage me from reading it if I didn't have a killfile.
    Mike
    "RicSeyler" <ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net> wrote in message news:KCwWb.12546$A75.6658@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
    We know who the winner is.....
    But your entitled to your opinion. LOL

    ReefTech wrote:

    Looks to me like Boomer lost this one.


    "Dragon Slayer" <koi_man@nospam_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:c08a79$86iq$1@news3.infoave.net...
    Boomer when you read that, just let it go.............no need bashing
    heads
    here, the group knows what's going on.

    kc

    "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
    news:SFNVb.204571$Rc4.1681932@attbi_s54...
    Oh brother. Where to start.

    pH is the -log of the hydronium ion concentration. When the hydronium
    ion
    concentration is very low, your system is basic (high pH). When the
    hydronium ion concentration is very large, your system is acidic (low
    pH).
    pH + pOH = 14. So yeah, you can calculate a pH from a pOH and vice
    versa.
    But a pH of < 7 means acidic. pH > 7 means basic.
    pH can tell you something about acidity and basicity. It is a
    measurement
    of both, or the entire pH scale (1-14) if you will.

    It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you have
    high
    CO2 and add an airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH.

    Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your CO2 out
    with
    air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2
    in
    there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2
    in
    your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my
    tank.
    But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.

    If Alk resists changes in pH then why does CO2 lower the pH without
    affecting the Alk.

    Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get weakened
    with
    the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    'buffer' and the pH crashes.

    But I know what you mean, may use the term ALK and BC interchangeably
    Do you remember writing this in an earlier post? If you believe that
    alkalinity and buffering capacity can be used interchangeably than I
    must
    be
    getting through to you.

    When CO2 is added or remove it just changes the ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3.
    At
    any pH no matter what the Alk or CO2 there will be an exact ratio of
    CO2:HCO3:CO3

    Yes, at any pH there will be 'SOME' ratio of CO2:HCO3-1:CO3-2. What is
    your
    point here?

    Go ahead and pick a seawater pH and I will tell you what that ratio
    is.
    Tell me the pH and
    Alk and I will give the CO2 concentration. Give me the Alk and CO2
    and
    I
    will give you
    the pH. Don't forget the temperature and Salinity.
    Not interested. I can find my own software to do this too.

    Alk is defined as;

    TA = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--] + [B(OH)4-] + [OH-] + [Si(OH)3O-] + [MgOH+] +
    [HPO4--] +
    2[PO4---] - [H+]
    Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. What you are showing are components
    of
    a
    'BUFFER'. Which are used in the over all 'buffering capacity'. Are we
    going in circles here? Anyway, I think you are learning something.

    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters
    maximum BC is at a
    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little
    Buffering Capacity, if
    any at all.
    This is the 'primary buffer' in sea water:

    H2O + CO2 <---> H2CO3 <---> H+ + HCO3-1

    If you REALLY believe that sea water has little buffering capacity, than
    you
    need to do some reading on your own. I wont be able to convince you.

    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters
    maximum BC is at a
    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little
    Buffering Capacity, if
    any at all.
    This would be true if a monoprotic acid where used in the 'buffer', but
    carbonic acid (the primary buffering component in seawater) is a
    polyprotic
    acid. It has two protons that can dissociate. Therefore, it has two
    pKa's
    (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35.
    The
    pH of seawater varies from 7.6 to 8.4. Hmmm. That pH I calculated is
    right in there. Is that magic? :)

    Remember that seawater is more than a mixture of just carbonate and CO2,
    there are other buffers involved that make it even more complicated I'm
    sure.

    By the way do you know who you are talking to ?
    No. Do you?




    "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:102edca3c38a643@corp.supernews.com...
    Let me make this clear you don't know what you are taking about

    "alkalinity is a measurement of 'buffering capacity'"

    No, it is the ability to neutralize an acid. BC is the ability to
    withstand both upward
    and downward trends in pH.

    "pH is a measurement of 'acidity/basicity'.

    No, pH is a measurement of acidity and pOH is a measurement of
    Basicity,
    if you want to
    get picky, which seems you do.


    "How do you remove CO2? "

    It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you have
    high
    CO2 and add an
    airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH. It can be proven
    with
    a
    glass of water,
    a straw, some pH color indicator and an Alk test kit and if you must a
    CO2
    test kit
    You can have all the alk you want in the world and it won't help, in
    regards to CO2

    "Wrong. Alkalinity increases your tank's ability to RESIST sharp
    changes
    in
    pH. This is what is meant by 'buffering capacity'"

    No you are wrong and very lost. If Alk resists changes in pH then why
    does
    CO2 lower the
    pH without affecting the Alk ? CO2 has no effect on alk and alk has no
    effect on CO2. When
    CO2 is added or remove it just changes the ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3. At
    any
    pH no matter what
    the Alk or CO2 there will be an exact ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3

    ..
    Go ahead and pick a seawater pH and I will tell you what that ratio
    is.
    Tell me the pH and
    Alk and I will give the CO2 concentration. Give me the Alk and CO2
    and
    I
    will give you
    the pH. Don't forget the temperature and Salinity.

    Alk is defined as;

    TA = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--] + [B(OH)4-] + [OH-] + [Si(OH)3O-] + [MgOH+] +
    [HPO4--] +
    2[PO4---] - [H+]


    Buffering Capacity is defined as;

    BC = dCb/dpH = 2.303 (Kw/ [H3O+] + [H30+] + CKa[H3O+] / (Ka +
    [H3O+])²
    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters
    maximum BC is at a
    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little
    Buffering Capacity, if
    any at all.


    Alkalinity and Buffer Capacity are closely tied but are NOT the same
    thing, it is a
    misunderstanding and use of the term. Do you think water chemistry
    books
    would have
    separate sections on Alkalinity and Buffering Capacity if they were
    the
    same thing ?
    By the way do you know who you are talking to ?

    --
    Boomer

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ?
    Please Join Our Growing Membership
    www.coralrealm.com

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up






    --
    Ric Seyler
    Online Racing: RicSeyler
    GPL Handicap 6.35
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    http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
    remove -SPAM- from email address
    --------------------------------------
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    Mike Imbler, Feb 11, 2004
    #61
    1. Advertisements

  2. Dinky

    CapFusion Guest

    Ahhh, why did you jump in? I was soo sooo enjoying it and learning at the
    same time. Very entertaining. AND at the same TIME getting big fat HEAHACHE
    trying to understand the chemistry. BUT worth all the headache.

    CapFusion,...




    "Richard Reynolds" <reynolds46@cox.net> wrote in message
    news:0lHVb.16203$gl2.2728@lakeread05...
    > I am sorry ahead of time I couldnt resist
    >
    > > By the way do you know who you are talking to ?

    >
    >
    > DUH of course he doesnt or he wouldnt have argued :D
    >
    >
    > now ive done it the king is gona slap me around for messing with the

    oracle :D
    >
    > --
    > Richard Reynolds
    > Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
    >
    >
     
    CapFusion, Feb 11, 2004
    #62
    1. Advertisements

  3. > Ahhh, why did you jump in? I was soo sooo enjoying it and learning at the
    > same time. Very entertaining. AND at the same TIME getting big fat HEAHACHE
    > trying to understand the chemistry. BUT worth all the headache.
    >
    > CapFusion,...


    damn cap your newsserver sux, i posted that before most of the responses. :D




    --
    Richard Reynolds
    Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
     
    Richard Reynolds, Feb 11, 2004
    #63
  4. Dinky

    Rod Guest

    >
    >We know who the winner is.....


    Who, and what make you say so?.. My head is spinning.. One thing I will say,
    this group has a way of taking certain posters messages as gospil whether that
    person is right or wrong..
    Rod Buehler
    www.asplashoflife.com
     
    Rod, Feb 12, 2004
    #64
  5. Re: alkalinity ---long post--

    > I really want to help you understand.

    ok so ive been following along :D

    and just to fill anyone who doesnt know in, I cant get from an "h" a "2" and an "o" to
    make water :D


    but a few questions from all parts of the thread :D

    there have been some references to FW vs SW equasions for THIS email everything is
    saltwater as FW doesnt concern me this much.


    --boomer--It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you have high
    CO2 and add an airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH.

    --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your CO2 out with
    air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my tank.
    But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors

    what I understand boomer called "blowing it off" stoutman called it "purge" and a few
    places I just checked call it degassing is that all the same thing or not ?? and if not
    what is the difference??

    IF i take 3L of asw put it in a tall conatiner and pump a lot of air into it the Ph rises,
    but the Alk stays the same, I know thats what happens I do it daily. isnt this because
    afterwards the water has less co2 than before?

    alternatively IF i disconnect that air pump and plug in my co2 tank, the Ph falls, and the
    Alk still stays the same, I also do this daily. isnt this because now the water has more
    co2?

    wont both of these happen regardless of the alkalinity of the water?? if not what
    alkalinity do I need to put more co2 into the water and keep the ph > 7??



    --boomer--Bad term as Buffering Capacity isn't Alkalinity. Alk is more on the order of ANC
    (Acid
    Neutralizing Capacity). BC is the ability to withstand upward and downward trends in pH do
    to the addition of an acid or base.There is also a measurement called Acidity ( B_aseNC
    and test kits for it). So the combination of the two more or les is BC. But I know what
    you mean, may use the term ALK and BC interchangeably

    --stoutman-- Yes, the pH will drop with the addition of CO2. Remove CO2 will cause the
    pH to rise? How do you remove CO2? Once it is in solution it forms
    carbonic acid and neutralizes some of your 'buffer'.

    whats carbonic acid, where does it come from ??? and how does it neutralize some of my
    'buffer' ? and can algae's still consume it now or not?? can i test the levels of
    carbonic acid? and what could be considered low/normal/high??



    --boomer--You can have all the alk you want in the world and it won't help, in
    regards to CO2.

    --stoutman--Wrong. Alkalinity increases your tank's ability to RESIST sharp changes in
    pH. This is what is meant by 'buffering capacity'.

    ok so how high does my alkalinity need to be to keep the ph from falling? and what is a
    "sharp change" is not a starting Ph of 8.1 and an ending Ph of < 5.0(the lowest I can
    test) a "sharp change" ? what time period does it have to happen in I know i can make the
    change in under 5 minutes is that "sharp"?


    --stoutman--pH is the -log of the hydronium ion concentration. When the hydronium ion
    concentration is very low, your system is basic (high pH). When the
    hydronium ion concentration is very large, your system is acidic (low pH).

    where does the hydronium ion come from when I add co2 ??? how does it go away when the co2
    goes away? extend that "goes away" to include consumption??

    --stoutman--pH + pOH = 14. So yeah, you can calculate a pH from a pOH and vice versa.
    But a pH of < 7 means acidic. pH > 7 means basic.
    pH can tell you something about acidity and basicity. It is a measurement
    of both, or the entire pH scale (1-14) if you will.

    where does 14 come from ??? is that just the highest Ph level??

    am I doing Ph wrong should it be pH?

    --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your CO2 out with
    air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my tank.
    But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.

    wouldnt this tie in from people that have high Ph in there homes?? not the outside air or
    the air at sea level? and wouldnt this higher level make it into the tank water?? if not
    how/why?

    and if you use co2 and Kalk its a really bad thing (trust me I know ) I think you meant ca
    or calcium reactor.

    I add co2 to SW for a number of reasons mostly to help grow things, but also to break down
    calcium in my calcium reactors.

    --booomer--If Alk resists changes in pH then why does CO2 lower the pH without
    affecting the Alk.

    --stoutman--Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get weakened with
    the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    'buffer' and the pH crashes.

    I dont get this!

    if by "buffer" your refering again to alkalinity how can I add co2 and test for the
    alkalinity and get the same results ???



    I ran out of time, i need to get real work done :( i know there were more questions ill
    have to ask them later :) the formulas are making my head spin!!!





    --
    Richard Reynolds
    Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
     
    Richard Reynolds, Feb 12, 2004
    #65
  6. Dinky

    stoutman Guest

    I shouldn't respond to this, but... kill file or no kill file ...

    >I have to assume Boomer won, because after a period of extreme tolerance, I placed stoutman in my killfile.


    Your going to settle for ASSUME. Then you must be making other assumptions along the way as well. YOU must also ASSUME that Boomer knows what he talking about along with what everyone else says. Nice logic. Yeah, don't read the discussion (and possibly learn something), just ASSUME he is right. Man, you must be the kind of person that votes for a president because you ASSUME he is a good candidate, instead of listening to the debate and making a decision for yourself. I feel sorry for you.

    >He appears ...


    Man, is that another way of saying ASSUME?

    >Stoutman came in touting his PHD, and hasn't appeared to be helpful to me.


    There it is again. Appears.

    >I believe most people of intelligence would assess the interactions of a group, and the value of the members before engaging in a prolonged, self aggrandizing, argument


    Why? So I can ASSUME so and so knows what they are talking about? That's the way YOU do things.

    >Boomer has been of very high value in this and other aquarium groups.


    Is this another one of your assumptions?



    This is your way of going through life. IT APPEARS, so I ASSUME, IT APPEARS, so I ASSUME, IT APPEARS, so I ASSUME.





    "Mike Imbler" <mike-imbler@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:SJyWb.19262$fV5.435127@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    I have to assume Boomer won, because after a period of extreme tolerance, I placed stoutman in my killfile. Boomer has been of very high value in this and other aquarium groups. His patience in answering the same questions from different reefers over and over again is greater than mine would be. He appears to have the respect of other well respected, and helpful resources. Stoutman came in touting his PHD, and hasn't appeared to be helpful to me. I believe most people of intelligence would assess the interactions of a group, and the value of the members before engaging in a prolonged, self aggrandizing, argument. If it weren't for posters like Boomer, I wouldn't be reading this newsgroup. Conversely, posters like Stoutman would discourage me from reading it if I didn't have a killfile.
    Mike
    "RicSeyler" <ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net> wrote in message news:KCwWb.12546$A75.6658@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
    We know who the winner is.....
    But your entitled to your opinion. LOL

    ReefTech wrote:

    Looks to me like Boomer lost this one.


    "Dragon Slayer" <koi_man@nospam_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:c08a79$86iq$1@news3.infoave.net...
    Boomer when you read that, just let it go.............no need bashing
    heads
    here, the group knows what's going on.

    kc

    "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
    news:SFNVb.204571$Rc4.1681932@attbi_s54...
    Oh brother. Where to start.

    pH is the -log of the hydronium ion concentration. When the hydronium
    ion
    concentration is very low, your system is basic (high pH). When the
    hydronium ion concentration is very large, your system is acidic (low
    pH).
    pH + pOH = 14. So yeah, you can calculate a pH from a pOH and vice
    versa.
    But a pH of < 7 means acidic. pH > 7 means basic.
    pH can tell you something about acidity and basicity. It is a
    measurement
    of both, or the entire pH scale (1-14) if you will.

    It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you have
    high
    CO2 and add an airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH.

    Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your CO2 out
    with
    air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2
    in
    there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2
    in
    your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my
    tank.
    But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.

    If Alk resists changes in pH then why does CO2 lower the pH without
    affecting the Alk.

    Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get weakened
    with
    the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    'buffer' and the pH crashes.

    But I know what you mean, may use the term ALK and BC interchangeably
    Do you remember writing this in an earlier post? If you believe that
    alkalinity and buffering capacity can be used interchangeably than I
    must
    be
    getting through to you.

    When CO2 is added or remove it just changes the ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3.
    At
    any pH no matter what the Alk or CO2 there will be an exact ratio of
    CO2:HCO3:CO3

    Yes, at any pH there will be 'SOME' ratio of CO2:HCO3-1:CO3-2. What is
    your
    point here?

    Go ahead and pick a seawater pH and I will tell you what that ratio
    is.
    Tell me the pH and
    Alk and I will give the CO2 concentration. Give me the Alk and CO2
    and
    I
    will give you
    the pH. Don't forget the temperature and Salinity.
    Not interested. I can find my own software to do this too.

    Alk is defined as;

    TA = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--] + [B(OH)4-] + [OH-] + [Si(OH)3O-] + [MgOH+] +
    [HPO4--] +
    2[PO4---] - [H+]
    Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. What you are showing are components
    of
    a
    'BUFFER'. Which are used in the over all 'buffering capacity'. Are we
    going in circles here? Anyway, I think you are learning something.

    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters
    maximum BC is at a
    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little
    Buffering Capacity, if
    any at all.
    This is the 'primary buffer' in sea water:

    H2O + CO2 <---> H2CO3 <---> H+ + HCO3-1

    If you REALLY believe that sea water has little buffering capacity, than
    you
    need to do some reading on your own. I wont be able to convince you.

    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters
    maximum BC is at a
    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little
    Buffering Capacity, if
    any at all.
    This would be true if a monoprotic acid where used in the 'buffer', but
    carbonic acid (the primary buffering component in seawater) is a
    polyprotic
    acid. It has two protons that can dissociate. Therefore, it has two
    pKa's
    (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35.
    The
    pH of seawater varies from 7.6 to 8.4. Hmmm. That pH I calculated is
    right in there. Is that magic? :)

    Remember that seawater is more than a mixture of just carbonate and CO2,
    there are other buffers involved that make it even more complicated I'm
    sure.

    By the way do you know who you are talking to ?
    No. Do you?




    "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:102edca3c38a643@corp.supernews.com...
    Let me make this clear you don't know what you are taking about

    "alkalinity is a measurement of 'buffering capacity'"

    No, it is the ability to neutralize an acid. BC is the ability to
    withstand both upward
    and downward trends in pH.

    "pH is a measurement of 'acidity/basicity'.

    No, pH is a measurement of acidity and pOH is a measurement of
    Basicity,
    if you want to
    get picky, which seems you do.


    "How do you remove CO2? "

    It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you have
    high
    CO2 and add an
    airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH. It can be proven
    with
    a
    glass of water,
    a straw, some pH color indicator and an Alk test kit and if you must a
    CO2
    test kit
    You can have all the alk you want in the world and it won't help, in
    regards to CO2

    "Wrong. Alkalinity increases your tank's ability to RESIST sharp
    changes
    in
    pH. This is what is meant by 'buffering capacity'"

    No you are wrong and very lost. If Alk resists changes in pH then why
    does
    CO2 lower the
    pH without affecting the Alk ? CO2 has no effect on alk and alk has no
    effect on CO2. When
    CO2 is added or remove it just changes the ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3. At
    any
    pH no matter what
    the Alk or CO2 there will be an exact ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3

    ..
    Go ahead and pick a seawater pH and I will tell you what that ratio
    is.
    Tell me the pH and
    Alk and I will give the CO2 concentration. Give me the Alk and CO2
    and
    I
    will give you
    the pH. Don't forget the temperature and Salinity.

    Alk is defined as;

    TA = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--] + [B(OH)4-] + [OH-] + [Si(OH)3O-] + [MgOH+] +
    [HPO4--] +
    2[PO4---] - [H+]


    Buffering Capacity is defined as;

    BC = dCb/dpH = 2.303 (Kw/ [H3O+] + [H30+] + CKa[H3O+] / (Ka +
    [H3O+])²
    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters
    maximum BC is at a
    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little
    Buffering Capacity, if
    any at all.


    Alkalinity and Buffer Capacity are closely tied but are NOT the same
    thing, it is a
    misunderstanding and use of the term. Do you think water chemistry
    books
    would have
    separate sections on Alkalinity and Buffering Capacity if they were
    the
    same thing ?
    By the way do you know who you are talking to ?

    --
    Boomer

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ?
    Please Join Our Growing Membership
    www.coralrealm.com

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up






    --
    Ric Seyler
    Online Racing: RicSeyler
    GPL Handicap 6.35
    ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net
    http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
    remove -SPAM- from email address
    --------------------------------------
    "Homer no function beer well without."
    - H.J. Simpson
     
    stoutman, Feb 12, 2004
    #66
  7. Dinky

    stoutman Guest

    Re: alkalinity ---long post--


    > --boomer--It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you

    have high
    > CO2 and add an airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH.
    >
    > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    CO2 out with
    > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    tank.
    > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors
    >
    > what I understand boomer called "blowing it off" stoutman called it

    "purge" and a few
    > places I just checked call it degassing is that all the same thing or not

    ?? and if not
    > what is the difference??


    Purging and Degassing are the same. But I wouldn't degas a solution of a
    specific gas (CO2) with a gas (this case he was using air) that contains the
    same gas I am trying to purge. You could degas with nitrogen, but this
    would also degas other gases in solution, like a very important one, OXYGEN.


    > IF i take 3L of asw put it in a tall conatiner and pump a lot of air into

    it the Ph rises,
    > but the Alk stays the same, I know thats what happens I do it daily. isnt

    this because
    > afterwards the water has less co2 than before?


    asw?? You lost me. Not familiar with this term.

    > alternatively IF i disconnect that air pump and plug in my co2 tank, the

    Ph falls, and the
    > Alk still stays the same, I also do this daily. isnt this because now the

    water has more
    > co2?


    > wont both of these happen regardless of the alkalinity of the water?? if

    not what
    > alkalinity do I need to put more co2 into the water and keep the ph > 7??
    >
    >


    > whats carbonic acid, where does it come from ??? and how does it

    neutralize some of my
    > 'buffer' ? and can algae's still consume it now or not?? can i test the

    levels of
    > carbonic acid? and what could be considered low/normal/high??


    Carbonic acid forms from the reaction of CO2 (aqueous) and water. it is
    H2CO3. It is an acid. It will drive the pH down effectively neutralizing
    some of your buffer. You couldn't test for it because once it forms it is
    quickly turned into HCO3- which is in equilibrium with CO3-. At pH 8-8.5.
    You can, however test for your HCO3- and CO3-2 concentration. This is your
    carbonate hardness.


    > ok so how high does my alkalinity need to be to keep the ph from falling?

    and what is a
    > "sharp change" is not a starting Ph of 8.1 and an ending Ph of < 5.0(the

    lowest I can
    > test) a "sharp change" ? what time period does it have to happen in I

    know i can make the
    > change in under 5 minutes is that "sharp"?


    Your pH is always going to fall. Your alkalinity prevents a rapid fall in
    pH. What is the desired level of alkalinity for aquariums? Not sure on
    this. I'm a chemist, not a marine biologist. You ideally would want the
    most alkalinity you can without raising the pH out of spec.


    > where does the hydronium ion come from when I add co2 ??? how does it go

    away when the co2
    > goes away? extend that "goes away" to include consumption??


    CO2(gas) <---->CO2 (in solution) <-----> H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------>
    HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2

    These are all in equilibrium, meaning they flow from left to right with
    changes in pH. In order to remove CO2 (g) you ideally would want to shift
    the equilibrium to the left by LOWERING the pH. This is where Boomer and I
    disagree. I say you would have to lower the pH very low in order to
    effectively remove CO2 by purging. Your fish would die first. But, I guess
    if you purged for a VERY long time, you might be able to do it at a higer
    pH. Not sure. Never tried it.

    > where does 14 come from ??? is that just the highest Ph level??


    The 14 comes from this relationship:

    For pure water (contains no acids or bases): [OH-] = [H3O+] = 1.0 x10-7
    mol/L. This means that the OH-1 concentration is the same as the H3O+
    concentration and the concentration is 1x10-7

    Kw for water = [OH-][H3O+] therefore Kw = 1.0 x10-14. = [OH-][H3O+] take
    log of both sides and you get:

    pOH + pH = 14.

    > am I doing Ph wrong should it be pH?


    pH. The p simply means negative log. You will also see pKa (negative log
    of Ka). or pOH etc.

    > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    CO2 out with
    > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    tank.
    > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.
    >
    > wouldnt this tie in from people that have high Ph in there homes?? not the

    outside air or
    > the air at sea level? and wouldnt this higher level make it into the tank

    water?? if not
    > how/why?


    Not sure what you mean by high pH in your home. A pH is the - log of the
    hydronium ion CONCENTRATION. This usually refers to solutions.


    >
    > --stoutman--Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get

    weakened with
    > the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    > 'buffer' and the pH crashes.
    >
    > I dont get this!
    >
    > if by "buffer" your refering again to alkalinity how can I add co2 and

    test for the
    > alkalinity and get the same results ???


    Your total alkalinity dosn't change. But it will be in a different form
    depending on the pH

    H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------> HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2
    ------------------------------------------>
    increasing pH


    >
    >
    > I ran out of time, i need to get real work done :( i know there were more

    questions ill
    > have to ask them later :) the formulas are making my head spin!!!
    >


    Ok.










    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Richard Reynolds
    > Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
    >
    >
     
    stoutman, Feb 12, 2004
    #67
  8. Dinky

    stoutman Guest

    Re: alkalinity ---long post--

    Purging and Degassing are the same. But I wouldn't degas a solution of a
    specific gas (CO2) with a gas (this case he was using air) that contains the
    same gas I am trying to purge. You could degas with nitrogen, but this
    would also degas other gases in solution, like a very important one, OXYGEN.


    > IF i take 3L of asw put it in a tall conatiner and pump a lot of air into

    it the Ph rises,
    > but the Alk stays the same, I know thats what happens I do it daily. isnt

    this because
    > afterwards the water has less co2 than before?


    asw?? You lost me. Not familiar with this term.

    > alternatively IF i disconnect that air pump and plug in my co2 tank, the

    Ph falls, and the
    > Alk still stays the same, I also do this daily. isnt this because now the

    water has more
    > co2?


    > wont both of these happen regardless of the alkalinity of the water?? if

    not what
    > alkalinity do I need to put more co2 into the water and keep the ph > 7??
    >
    >


    > whats carbonic acid, where does it come from ??? and how does it

    neutralize some of my
    > 'buffer' ? and can algae's still consume it now or not?? can i test the

    levels of
    > carbonic acid? and what could be considered low/normal/high??


    Carbonic acid forms from the reaction of CO2 (aqueous) and water. it is
    H2CO3. It is an acid. It will drive the pH down effectively neutralizing
    some of your buffer. You couldn't test for it because once it forms it is
    quickly turned into HCO3- which is in equilibrium with CO3-. At pH 8-8.5.
    You can, however test for your HCO3- and CO3-2 concentration. This is your
    carbonate hardness also known as alkalinity.


    > ok so how high does my alkalinity need to be to keep the ph from falling?

    and what is a
    > "sharp change" is not a starting Ph of 8.1 and an ending Ph of < 5.0(the

    lowest I can
    > test) a "sharp change" ? what time period does it have to happen in I

    know i can make the
    > change in under 5 minutes is that "sharp"?


    Your pH is always going to fall. Your alkalinity prevents a rapid fall in
    pH. What is the desired level of alkalinity for aquariums? Not sure on
    this. I'm a chemist, not a marine biologist. You ideally would want the
    most alkalinity you can without raising the pH out of spec.


    > where does the hydronium ion come from when I add co2 ??? how does it go

    away when the co2
    > goes away? extend that "goes away" to include consumption??


    CO2(gas) <---->CO2 (in solution) <-----> H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------>
    HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2

    These are all in equilibrium, meaning they flow from left to right with
    changes in pH. In order to remove CO2 (g) you ideally would want to shift
    the equilibrium to the left by LOWERING the pH. This is where Boomer and I
    disagree. I say you would have to lower the pH very low in order to
    effectively remove CO2 by purging. Your fish would die first. But, I guess
    if you purged for a VERY long time, you might be able to do it at a higer
    pH. Not sure. Never tried it.

    > where does 14 come from ??? is that just the highest Ph level??


    The 14 comes from this relationship:

    For pure water (contains no acids or bases): [OH-] = [H3O+] = 1.0 x10-7
    mol/L. This means that the OH-1 concentration is the same as the H3O+
    concentration and the concentration is 1x10-7

    Kw for water = [OH-][H3O+] therefore Kw = 1.0 x10-14. = [OH-][H3O+] take
    log of both sides and you get:

    pOH + pH = 14.

    > am I doing Ph wrong should it be pH?


    pH. The p simply means negative log. You will also see pKa (negative log
    of Ka). or pOH etc.

    > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    CO2 out with
    > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    tank.
    > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.
    >
    > wouldnt this tie in from people that have high Ph in there homes?? not the

    outside air or
    > the air at sea level? and wouldnt this higher level make it into the tank

    water?? if not
    > how/why?


    Not sure what you mean by high pH in your home. A pH is the - log of the
    hydronium ion CONCENTRATION. This usually refers to solutions.


    >
    > --stoutman--Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get

    weakened with
    > the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    > 'buffer' and the pH crashes.
    >
    > I dont get this!
    >
    > if by "buffer" your refering again to alkalinity how can I add co2 and

    test for the
    > alkalinity and get the same results ???


    Your total alkalinity dosn't change. But it will be in a different form
    depending on the pH

    H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------> HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2
    ------------------------------------------>
    increasing pH


    >
    >
    > I ran out of time, i need to get real work done :( i know there were more

    questions ill
    > have to ask them later :) the formulas are making my head spin!!!
    >


    Ok.























    "Richard Reynolds" <reynolds46@cox.net> wrote in message
    news:NxAWb.21381$gl2.8769@lakeread05...
    > > I really want to help you understand.

    >
    > ok so ive been following along :D
    >
    > and just to fill anyone who doesnt know in, I cant get from an "h" a "2"

    and an "o" to
    > make water :D
    >
    >
    > but a few questions from all parts of the thread :D
    >
    > there have been some references to FW vs SW equasions for THIS email

    everything is
    > saltwater as FW doesnt concern me this much.
    >
    >
    > --boomer--It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you

    have high
    > CO2 and add an airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH.
    >
    > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    CO2 out with
    > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    tank.
    > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors
    >
    > what I understand boomer called "blowing it off" stoutman called it

    "purge" and a few
    > places I just checked call it degassing is that all the same thing or not

    ?? and if not
    > what is the difference??
    >
    > IF i take 3L of asw put it in a tall conatiner and pump a lot of air into

    it the Ph rises,
    > but the Alk stays the same, I know thats what happens I do it daily. isnt

    this because
    > afterwards the water has less co2 than before?
    >
    > alternatively IF i disconnect that air pump and plug in my co2 tank, the

    Ph falls, and the
    > Alk still stays the same, I also do this daily. isnt this because now the

    water has more
    > co2?
    >
    > wont both of these happen regardless of the alkalinity of the water?? if

    not what
    > alkalinity do I need to put more co2 into the water and keep the ph > 7??
    >
    >
    >
    > --boomer--Bad term as Buffering Capacity isn't Alkalinity. Alk is more on

    the order of ANC
    > (Acid
    > Neutralizing Capacity). BC is the ability to withstand upward and downward

    trends in pH do
    > to the addition of an acid or base.There is also a measurement called

    Acidity ( B_aseNC
    > and test kits for it). So the combination of the two more or les is BC.

    But I know what
    > you mean, may use the term ALK and BC interchangeably
    >
    > --stoutman-- Yes, the pH will drop with the addition of CO2. Remove CO2

    will cause the
    > pH to rise? How do you remove CO2? Once it is in solution it forms
    > carbonic acid and neutralizes some of your 'buffer'.
    >
    > whats carbonic acid, where does it come from ??? and how does it

    neutralize some of my
    > 'buffer' ? and can algae's still consume it now or not?? can i test the

    levels of
    > carbonic acid? and what could be considered low/normal/high??
    >
    >
    >
    > --boomer--You can have all the alk you want in the world and it won't

    help, in
    > regards to CO2.
    >
    > --stoutman--Wrong. Alkalinity increases your tank's ability to RESIST

    sharp changes in
    > pH. This is what is meant by 'buffering capacity'.
    >
    > ok so how high does my alkalinity need to be to keep the ph from falling?

    and what is a
    > "sharp change" is not a starting Ph of 8.1 and an ending Ph of < 5.0(the

    lowest I can
    > test) a "sharp change" ? what time period does it have to happen in I

    know i can make the
    > change in under 5 minutes is that "sharp"?
    >
    >
    > --stoutman--pH is the -log of the hydronium ion concentration. When the

    hydronium ion
    > concentration is very low, your system is basic (high pH). When the
    > hydronium ion concentration is very large, your system is acidic (low pH).
    >
    > where does the hydronium ion come from when I add co2 ??? how does it go

    away when the co2
    > goes away? extend that "goes away" to include consumption??
    >
    > --stoutman--pH + pOH = 14. So yeah, you can calculate a pH from a pOH and

    vice versa.
    > But a pH of < 7 means acidic. pH > 7 means basic.
    > pH can tell you something about acidity and basicity. It is a measurement
    > of both, or the entire pH scale (1-14) if you will.
    >
    > where does 14 come from ??? is that just the highest Ph level??
    >
    > am I doing Ph wrong should it be pH?
    >
    > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    CO2 out with
    > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    tank.
    > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.
    >
    > wouldnt this tie in from people that have high Ph in there homes?? not the

    outside air or
    > the air at sea level? and wouldnt this higher level make it into the tank

    water?? if not
    > how/why?
    >
    > and if you use co2 and Kalk its a really bad thing (trust me I know ) I

    think you meant ca
    > or calcium reactor.
    >
    > I add co2 to SW for a number of reasons mostly to help grow things, but

    also to break down
    > calcium in my calcium reactors.
    >
    > --booomer--If Alk resists changes in pH then why does CO2 lower the pH

    without
    > affecting the Alk.
    >
    > --stoutman--Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get

    weakened with
    > the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    > 'buffer' and the pH crashes.
    >
    > I dont get this!
    >
    > if by "buffer" your refering again to alkalinity how can I add co2 and

    test for the
    > alkalinity and get the same results ???
    >
    >
    >
    > I ran out of time, i need to get real work done :( i know there were more

    questions ill
    > have to ask them later :) the formulas are making my head spin!!!
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Richard Reynolds
    > Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
    >
    >
     
    stoutman, Feb 12, 2004
    #68
  9. Dinky

    Benjamin Guest

    I think if this continues until everyone has a deeper understanding of
    Alkalinity and we are using the same language to describe it and other terms
    surrounding it all of us will end up winners.


    I almost missed this thread! That would have made me a looser for sure.

    --
    --
    Benjamin1@netins.net
    My Web Site: http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/


    "Dinky" <vincentbillNOSPAM@hotmail.NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
    news:zLfVb.15452$F23.15064@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > I'm having some difficulty wrapping my brain around alkalinity and it's
    > relationship to PH. Can anyone explain it in "Aquaria for idiots" fashion,
    > or point me to a place where it's explained? I'm starting to feel like I
    > need to take a couple BioChem classes.
    >
    > tia
    >
    > billy
    >
    > --
    >
    > --
    >
    >
     
    Benjamin, Feb 12, 2004
    #69
  10. Dinky

    stoutman Guest

    Re: alkalinity ---long post--

    i didnt explain this part very good. Let me try again.

    Kw for water = [OH-][H+] therefore Kw = 1.0 x10-14. = [OH-][H+] take
    log of both sides and you get:

    log[OH-] + log[H+] = -14

    -log[OH-] - log[H+] = 14

    (-log[OH-]) + (-log[H+]) = 14

    pOH + pH = 14

    p means take the negative log.












    "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:bhBWb.10208$jk2.32549@attbi_s53...
    > Purging and Degassing are the same. But I wouldn't degas a solution of a
    > specific gas (CO2) with a gas (this case he was using air) that contains

    the
    > same gas I am trying to purge. You could degas with nitrogen, but this
    > would also degas other gases in solution, like a very important one,

    OXYGEN.
    >
    >
    > > IF i take 3L of asw put it in a tall conatiner and pump a lot of air

    into
    > it the Ph rises,
    > > but the Alk stays the same, I know thats what happens I do it daily.

    isnt
    > this because
    > > afterwards the water has less co2 than before?

    >
    > asw?? You lost me. Not familiar with this term.
    >
    > > alternatively IF i disconnect that air pump and plug in my co2 tank, the

    > Ph falls, and the
    > > Alk still stays the same, I also do this daily. isnt this because now

    the
    > water has more
    > > co2?

    >
    > > wont both of these happen regardless of the alkalinity of the water?? if

    > not what
    > > alkalinity do I need to put more co2 into the water and keep the ph >

    7??
    > >
    > >

    >
    > > whats carbonic acid, where does it come from ??? and how does it

    > neutralize some of my
    > > 'buffer' ? and can algae's still consume it now or not?? can i test the

    > levels of
    > > carbonic acid? and what could be considered low/normal/high??

    >
    > Carbonic acid forms from the reaction of CO2 (aqueous) and water. it is
    > H2CO3. It is an acid. It will drive the pH down effectively neutralizing
    > some of your buffer. You couldn't test for it because once it forms it is
    > quickly turned into HCO3- which is in equilibrium with CO3-. At pH 8-8.5.
    > You can, however test for your HCO3- and CO3-2 concentration. This is

    your
    > carbonate hardness also known as alkalinity.
    >
    >
    > > ok so how high does my alkalinity need to be to keep the ph from

    falling?
    > and what is a
    > > "sharp change" is not a starting Ph of 8.1 and an ending Ph of < 5.0(the

    > lowest I can
    > > test) a "sharp change" ? what time period does it have to happen in I

    > know i can make the
    > > change in under 5 minutes is that "sharp"?

    >
    > Your pH is always going to fall. Your alkalinity prevents a rapid fall in
    > pH. What is the desired level of alkalinity for aquariums? Not sure on
    > this. I'm a chemist, not a marine biologist. You ideally would want the
    > most alkalinity you can without raising the pH out of spec.
    >
    >
    > > where does the hydronium ion come from when I add co2 ??? how does it go

    > away when the co2
    > > goes away? extend that "goes away" to include consumption??

    >
    > CO2(gas) <---->CO2 (in solution) <-----> H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------>
    > HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2
    >
    > These are all in equilibrium, meaning they flow from left to right with
    > changes in pH. In order to remove CO2 (g) you ideally would want to shift
    > the equilibrium to the left by LOWERING the pH. This is where Boomer and

    I
    > disagree. I say you would have to lower the pH very low in order to
    > effectively remove CO2 by purging. Your fish would die first. But, I

    guess
    > if you purged for a VERY long time, you might be able to do it at a higer
    > pH. Not sure. Never tried it.
    >
    > > where does 14 come from ??? is that just the highest Ph level??

    >
    > The 14 comes from this relationship:
    >
    > For pure water (contains no acids or bases): [OH-] = [H3O+] = 1.0 x10-7
    > mol/L. This means that the OH-1 concentration is the same as the H3O+
    > concentration and the concentration is 1x10-7
    >
    > Kw for water = [OH-][H3O+] therefore Kw = 1.0 x10-14. = [OH-][H3O+] take
    > log of both sides and you get:
    >
    > pOH + pH = 14.
    >
    > > am I doing Ph wrong should it be pH?

    >
    > pH. The p simply means negative log. You will also see pKa (negative

    log
    > of Ka). or pOH etc.
    >
    > > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    > CO2 out with
    > > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2

    in
    > > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2

    in
    > > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    > tank.
    > > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.
    > >
    > > wouldnt this tie in from people that have high Ph in there homes?? not

    the
    > outside air or
    > > the air at sea level? and wouldnt this higher level make it into the

    tank
    > water?? if not
    > > how/why?

    >
    > Not sure what you mean by high pH in your home. A pH is the - log of the
    > hydronium ion CONCENTRATION. This usually refers to solutions.
    >
    >
    > >
    > > --stoutman--Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get

    > weakened with
    > > the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    > > 'buffer' and the pH crashes.
    > >
    > > I dont get this!
    > >
    > > if by "buffer" your refering again to alkalinity how can I add co2 and

    > test for the
    > > alkalinity and get the same results ???

    >
    > Your total alkalinity dosn't change. But it will be in a different form
    > depending on the pH
    >
    > H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------> HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2
    > ------------------------------------------>
    > increasing pH
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > I ran out of time, i need to get real work done :( i know there were

    more
    > questions ill
    > > have to ask them later :) the formulas are making my head spin!!!
    > >

    >
    > Ok.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Richard Reynolds" <reynolds46@cox.net> wrote in message
    > news:NxAWb.21381$gl2.8769@lakeread05...
    > > > I really want to help you understand.

    > >
    > > ok so ive been following along :D
    > >
    > > and just to fill anyone who doesnt know in, I cant get from an "h" a "2"

    > and an "o" to
    > > make water :D
    > >
    > >
    > > but a few questions from all parts of the thread :D
    > >
    > > there have been some references to FW vs SW equasions for THIS email

    > everything is
    > > saltwater as FW doesnt concern me this much.
    > >
    > >
    > > --boomer--It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If

    you
    > have high
    > > CO2 and add an airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH.
    > >
    > > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    > CO2 out with
    > > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2

    in
    > > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2

    in
    > > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    > tank.
    > > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors
    > >
    > > what I understand boomer called "blowing it off" stoutman called it

    > "purge" and a few
    > > places I just checked call it degassing is that all the same thing or

    not
    > ?? and if not
    > > what is the difference??
    > >
    > > IF i take 3L of asw put it in a tall conatiner and pump a lot of air

    into
    > it the Ph rises,
    > > but the Alk stays the same, I know thats what happens I do it daily.

    isnt
    > this because
    > > afterwards the water has less co2 than before?
    > >
    > > alternatively IF i disconnect that air pump and plug in my co2 tank, the

    > Ph falls, and the
    > > Alk still stays the same, I also do this daily. isnt this because now

    the
    > water has more
    > > co2?
    > >
    > > wont both of these happen regardless of the alkalinity of the water?? if

    > not what
    > > alkalinity do I need to put more co2 into the water and keep the ph >

    7??
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --boomer--Bad term as Buffering Capacity isn't Alkalinity. Alk is more

    on
    > the order of ANC
    > > (Acid
    > > Neutralizing Capacity). BC is the ability to withstand upward and

    downward
    > trends in pH do
    > > to the addition of an acid or base.There is also a measurement called

    > Acidity ( B_aseNC
    > > and test kits for it). So the combination of the two more or les is BC.

    > But I know what
    > > you mean, may use the term ALK and BC interchangeably
    > >
    > > --stoutman-- Yes, the pH will drop with the addition of CO2. Remove CO2

    > will cause the
    > > pH to rise? How do you remove CO2? Once it is in solution it forms
    > > carbonic acid and neutralizes some of your 'buffer'.
    > >
    > > whats carbonic acid, where does it come from ??? and how does it

    > neutralize some of my
    > > 'buffer' ? and can algae's still consume it now or not?? can i test the

    > levels of
    > > carbonic acid? and what could be considered low/normal/high??
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --boomer--You can have all the alk you want in the world and it won't

    > help, in
    > > regards to CO2.
    > >
    > > --stoutman--Wrong. Alkalinity increases your tank's ability to RESIST

    > sharp changes in
    > > pH. This is what is meant by 'buffering capacity'.
    > >
    > > ok so how high does my alkalinity need to be to keep the ph from

    falling?
    > and what is a
    > > "sharp change" is not a starting Ph of 8.1 and an ending Ph of < 5.0(the

    > lowest I can
    > > test) a "sharp change" ? what time period does it have to happen in I

    > know i can make the
    > > change in under 5 minutes is that "sharp"?
    > >
    > >
    > > --stoutman--pH is the -log of the hydronium ion concentration. When the

    > hydronium ion
    > > concentration is very low, your system is basic (high pH). When the
    > > hydronium ion concentration is very large, your system is acidic (low

    pH).
    > >
    > > where does the hydronium ion come from when I add co2 ??? how does it go

    > away when the co2
    > > goes away? extend that "goes away" to include consumption??
    > >
    > > --stoutman--pH + pOH = 14. So yeah, you can calculate a pH from a pOH

    and
    > vice versa.
    > > But a pH of < 7 means acidic. pH > 7 means basic.
    > > pH can tell you something about acidity and basicity. It is a

    measurement
    > > of both, or the entire pH scale (1-14) if you will.
    > >
    > > where does 14 come from ??? is that just the highest Ph level??
    > >
    > > am I doing Ph wrong should it be pH?
    > >
    > > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    > CO2 out with
    > > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2

    in
    > > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2

    in
    > > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    > tank.
    > > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.
    > >
    > > wouldnt this tie in from people that have high Ph in there homes?? not

    the
    > outside air or
    > > the air at sea level? and wouldnt this higher level make it into the

    tank
    > water?? if not
    > > how/why?
    > >
    > > and if you use co2 and Kalk its a really bad thing (trust me I know ) I

    > think you meant ca
    > > or calcium reactor.
    > >
    > > I add co2 to SW for a number of reasons mostly to help grow things, but

    > also to break down
    > > calcium in my calcium reactors.
    > >
    > > --booomer--If Alk resists changes in pH then why does CO2 lower the pH

    > without
    > > affecting the Alk.
    > >
    > > --stoutman--Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get

    > weakened with
    > > the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    > > 'buffer' and the pH crashes.
    > >
    > > I dont get this!
    > >
    > > if by "buffer" your refering again to alkalinity how can I add co2 and

    > test for the
    > > alkalinity and get the same results ???
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I ran out of time, i need to get real work done :( i know there were

    more
    > questions ill
    > > have to ask them later :) the formulas are making my head spin!!!
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Richard Reynolds
    > > Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    stoutman, Feb 12, 2004
    #70
  11. Re: alkalinity ---long post--

    > > --boomer--It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you
    > have high
    > > CO2 and add an airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH.
    > >
    > > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    > CO2 out with
    > > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    > > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    > > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    > tank.
    > > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors
    > >
    > > what I understand boomer called "blowing it off" stoutman called it

    > "purge" and a few
    > > places I just checked call it degassing is that all the same thing or not

    > ?? and if not
    > > what is the difference??

    >
    > Purging and Degassing are the same. But I wouldn't degas a solution of a
    > specific gas (CO2) with a gas (this case he was using air) that contains the
    > same gas I am trying to purge. You could degas with nitrogen, but this
    > would also degas other gases in solution, like a very important one, OXYGEN.


    now im way past lost. man i thought i was lost before.

    are you saying if i bubble co2 it will lower the co2??? or if i bubble co2 itll lower the
    oxygen ??

    oxygen is overrated :D

    > > IF i take 3L of asw put it in a tall conatiner and pump a lot of air into

    > it the Ph rises,
    > > but the Alk stays the same, I know thats what happens I do it daily. isnt

    > this because
    > > afterwards the water has less co2 than before?

    >
    > asw?? You lost me. Not familiar with this term.


    generally refers to artificial salt water.

    >
    > > alternatively IF i disconnect that air pump and plug in my co2 tank, the

    > Ph falls, and the
    > > Alk still stays the same, I also do this daily. isnt this because now the

    > water has more
    > > co2?

    >
    > > wont both of these happen regardless of the alkalinity of the water?? if

    > not what
    > > alkalinity do I need to put more co2 into the water and keep the ph > 7??
    > >
    > >

    >
    > > whats carbonic acid, where does it come from ??? and how does it

    > neutralize some of my
    > > 'buffer' ? and can algae's still consume it now or not?? can i test the

    > levels of
    > > carbonic acid? and what could be considered low/normal/high??

    >
    > Carbonic acid forms from the reaction of CO2 (aqueous) and water. it is
    > H2CO3. It is an acid. It will drive the pH down effectively neutralizing
    > some of your buffer. You couldn't test for it because once it forms it is
    > quickly turned into HCO3- which is in equilibrium with CO3-. At pH 8-8.5.
    > You can, however test for your HCO3- and CO3-2 concentration. This is your
    > carbonate hardness.


    so what happens at ph 6? or less? understanding your not a biologist neither am I, but
    can carbonic acid be consumed like co2 or not?

    > > ok so how high does my alkalinity need to be to keep the ph from falling?

    > and what is a
    > > "sharp change" is not a starting Ph of 8.1 and an ending Ph of < 5.0(the

    > lowest I can
    > > test) a "sharp change" ? what time period does it have to happen in I

    > know i can make the
    > > change in under 5 minutes is that "sharp"?

    >
    > Your pH is always going to fall. Your alkalinity prevents a rapid fall in
    > pH. What is the desired level of alkalinity for aquariums? Not sure on
    > this. I'm a chemist, not a marine biologist. You ideally would want the
    > most alkalinity you can without raising the pH out of spec.


    so how much is that, can you work it backwards to keep my ph up but with tons of co2?

    > > where does the hydronium ion come from when I add co2 ??? how does it go

    > away when the co2
    > > goes away? extend that "goes away" to include consumption??

    >
    > CO2(gas) <---->CO2 (in solution) <-----> H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------>
    > HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2
    >
    > These are all in equilibrium, meaning they flow from left to right with
    > changes in pH. In order to remove CO2 (g) you ideally would want to shift
    > the equilibrium to the left by LOWERING the pH. This is where Boomer and I
    > disagree. I say you would have to lower the pH very low in order to
    > effectively remove CO2 by purging. Your fish would die first. But, I guess
    > if you purged for a VERY long time, you might be able to do it at a higer
    > pH. Not sure. Never tried it.


    way past lost here, your saying if i lower the pH ill lower the co2???

    > > where does 14 come from ??? is that just the highest Ph level??

    >
    > The 14 comes from this relationship:
    >
    > For pure water (contains no acids or bases): [OH-] = [H3O+] = 1.0 x10-7
    > mol/L. This means that the OH-1 concentration is the same as the H3O+
    > concentration and the concentration is 1x10-7
    >
    > Kw for water = [OH-][H3O+] therefore Kw = 1.0 x10-14. = [OH-][H3O+] take
    > log of both sides and you get:
    >
    > pOH + pH = 14.
    >
    > > am I doing Ph wrong should it be pH?

    >
    > pH. The p simply means negative log. You will also see pKa (negative log
    > of Ka). or pOH etc.


    ok

    >
    > > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your

    > CO2 out with
    > > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2 in
    > > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2 in
    > > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    > tank.
    > > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.
    > >
    > > wouldnt this tie in from people that have high Ph in there homes?? not the

    > outside air or
    > > the air at sea level? and wouldnt this higher level make it into the tank

    > water?? if not
    > > how/why?

    >
    > Not sure what you mean by high pH in your home. A pH is the - log of the
    > hydronium ion CONCENTRATION. This usually refers to solutions.


    sorry was meaining to say high co2 in the home. lowering the ph. its a common aquarium
    problem

    > > --stoutman--Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get

    > weakened with
    > > the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    > > 'buffer' and the pH crashes.
    > >
    > > I dont get this!
    > >
    > > if by "buffer" your refering again to alkalinity how can I add co2 and

    > test for the
    > > alkalinity and get the same results ???

    >
    > Your total alkalinity dosn't change. But it will be in a different form
    > depending on the pH
    >
    > H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------> HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2
    > ------------------------------------------>
    > increasing pH


    i guess i mis interpreted your statements I thought you said if i add co2 ill lower
    alkalinity

    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > I ran out of time, i need to get real work done :( i know there were more

    > questions ill
    > > have to ask them later :) the formulas are making my head spin!!!
    > >

    >
    > Ok.


    --
    Richard Reynolds
    Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
     
    Richard Reynolds, Feb 12, 2004
    #71
  12. Dinky

    stoutman Guest

    Re: alkalinity ---long post--

    > > Purging and Degassing are the same. But I wouldn't degas a solution of
    a
    > > specific gas (CO2) with a gas (this case he was using air) that contains

    the
    > > same gas I am trying to purge. You could degas with nitrogen, but this
    > > would also degas other gases in solution, like a very important one,

    OXYGEN.
    >
    > now im way past lost. man i thought i was lost before.


    Boomer was discussiing purging CO2 from his tank with by bubbling air. Air
    contains CO2, as well as O2, N2 etc. Its a mixture of gases. I would think
    that inorder to purge a gas from solution, you would not want the same gas
    in the mixture you were using. In the case of air, CO2 is VERY low in
    relation to the other gases. It's mostly nitrogen and oxygen. I'm NOT sure
    if this would work or not. I never tried it. If you could I would think
    you would need to LOWER the pH to do it effectively, but your fish, snails,
    coral would hate you for ever! I wouldn't worry about removeing CO2.
    Raise your alkalinity instead. I dont know about Boomer, but I use a
    Venturi Skimmer, so I am already bubbling air into my tank like a mad man.



    > are you saying if i bubble co2 it will lower the co2??? or if i bubble co2

    itll lower the
    > oxygen ??


    Bubbling pure CO2 will raise your CO2(aq) levels effectively raising your
    H2CO3 levels etc. No, with regard to oxygen, I said to purge effectively
    you would ideally want to use a pure gas, like N2, but this would purge out
    other gases as well. Dont worry about purging. Boomer didnt convince me it
    works at the pH of an aquarium, but I never tried it and I'm not sure of
    this. There are MORE effective things you can do to battle CO2. Maintain
    a good ALKALINITY level.



    > oxygen is overrated :D
    >
    > > > IF i take 3L of asw put it in a tall conatiner and pump a lot of air

    into
    > > it the Ph rises,
    > > > but the Alk stays the same, I know thats what happens I do it daily.

    isnt
    > > this because
    > > > afterwards the water has less co2 than before?

    > >
    > > asw?? You lost me. Not familiar with this term.

    >
    > generally refers to artificial salt water.
    >


    If the pH rises when you pump in air, than yeah, your most likely removeing
    CO2. How long does it take?





    > > > alternatively IF i disconnect that air pump and plug in my co2 tank,

    the
    > > Ph falls, and the
    > > > Alk still stays the same, I also do this daily. isnt this because now

    the
    > > water has more
    > > > co2?


    YES.



    > > > wont both of these happen regardless of the alkalinity of the water??

    if
    > > not what
    > > > alkalinity do I need to put more co2 into the water and keep the ph >

    7??
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > > > whats carbonic acid, where does it come from ??? and how does it

    > > neutralize some of my
    > > > 'buffer' ? and can algae's still consume it now or not?? can i test

    the
    > > levels of
    > > > carbonic acid? and what could be considered low/normal/high??

    > >
    > > Carbonic acid forms from the reaction of CO2 (aqueous) and water. it is
    > > H2CO3. It is an acid. It will drive the pH down effectively

    neutralizing
    > > some of your buffer. You couldn't test for it because once it forms it

    is
    > > quickly turned into HCO3- which is in equilibrium with CO3-. At pH

    8-8.5.
    > > You can, however test for your HCO3- and CO3-2 concentration. This is

    your
    > > carbonate hardness.

    >
    > so what happens at ph 6? or less? understanding your not a biologist

    neither am I, but
    > can carbonic acid be consumed like co2 or not?


    Carbonic acid is in equilibrium with aqueous CO2. Can carbonic acid be
    consumed? It gets consumed (neutralized) at higher pH's. It is still
    there. Just its in a different form.



    > > > ok so how high does my alkalinity need to be to keep the ph from

    falling?
    > > and what is a
    > > > "sharp change" is not a starting Ph of 8.1 and an ending Ph of <

    5.0(the
    > > lowest I can
    > > > test) a "sharp change" ? what time period does it have to happen in I

    > > know i can make the
    > > > change in under 5 minutes is that "sharp"?

    > >
    > > Your pH is always going to fall. Your alkalinity prevents a rapid fall

    in
    > > pH. What is the desired level of alkalinity for aquariums? Not sure on
    > > this. I'm a chemist, not a marine biologist. You ideally would want

    the
    > > most alkalinity you can without raising the pH out of spec.

    >
    > so how much is that, can you work it backwards to keep my ph up but with

    tons of co2?

    In order to keep your pH up you need high alkalinity. To high alkalinity
    will raise your pH out of spec.




    > > > where does the hydronium ion come from when I add co2 ??? how does it

    go
    > > away when the co2
    > > > goes away? extend that "goes away" to include consumption??

    > >
    > > CO2(gas) <---->CO2 (in solution) <-----> H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------>
    > > HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2
    > >
    > > These are all in equilibrium, meaning they flow from left to right with
    > > changes in pH. In order to remove CO2 (g) you ideally would want to

    shift
    > > the equilibrium to the left by LOWERING the pH. This is where Boomer

    and I
    > > disagree. I say you would have to lower the pH very low in order to
    > > effectively remove CO2 by purging. Your fish would die first. But, I

    guess
    > > if you purged for a VERY long time, you might be able to do it at a

    higer
    > > pH. Not sure. Never tried it.

    >
    > way past lost here, your saying if i lower the pH ill lower the co2???



    No, if you lower the pH you make it EASIER to purge out CO2. Remember, at
    higher pH's the equilibrium (above) is shifted to the right, away from
    CO2(solution)




    > > > where does 14 come from ??? is that just the highest Ph level??

    > >
    > > The 14 comes from this relationship:
    > >
    > > For pure water (contains no acids or bases): [OH-] = [H3O+] = 1.0 x10-7
    > > mol/L. This means that the OH-1 concentration is the same as the H3O+
    > > concentration and the concentration is 1x10-7
    > >
    > > Kw for water = [OH-][H3O+] therefore Kw = 1.0 x10-14. = [OH-][H3O+]

    take
    > > log of both sides and you get:
    > >
    > > pOH + pH = 14.
    > >
    > > > am I doing Ph wrong should it be pH?

    > >
    > > pH. The p simply means negative log. You will also see pKa (negative

    log
    > > of Ka). or pOH etc.

    >
    > ok
    >
    > >
    > > > --stoutman--Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term)

    your
    > > CO2 out with
    > > > air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2

    in
    > > > there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of

    CO2 in
    > > > your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    > > tank.
    > > > But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.
    > > >
    > > > wouldnt this tie in from people that have high Ph in there homes?? not

    the
    > > outside air or
    > > > the air at sea level? and wouldnt this higher level make it into the

    tank
    > > water?? if not
    > > > how/why?

    > >
    > > Not sure what you mean by high pH in your home. A pH is the - log of

    the
    > > hydronium ion CONCENTRATION. This usually refers to solutions.

    >
    > sorry was meaining to say high co2 in the home. lowering the ph. its a

    common aquarium
    > problem
    >
    > > > --stoutman--Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to

    get
    > > weakened with
    > > > the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    > > > 'buffer' and the pH crashes.
    > > >
    > > > I dont get this!
    > > >
    > > > if by "buffer" your refering again to alkalinity how can I add co2 and

    > > test for the
    > > > alkalinity and get the same results ???

    > >
    > > Your total alkalinity dosn't change. But it will be in a different form
    > > depending on the pH
    > >
    > > H2CO3 (carbonic acid) <------> HCO3-1 <-------> CO3-2
    > > ------------------------------------------>
    > > increasing pH

    >
    > i guess i mis interpreted your statements I thought you said if i add co2

    ill lower
    > alkalinity



    No, if you add CO2 you increase CO2(aq) and increase H2CO3 etc. And you
    lower pH. Not alkalinity. If I said alkalinity, it was a misprint :)


    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > I ran out of time, i need to get real work done :( i know there were

    more
    > > questions ill
    > > > have to ask them later :) the formulas are making my head spin!!!
    > > >

    > >
    > > Ok.

    >
    > --
    > Richard Reynolds
    > Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
    >
    >
     
    stoutman, Feb 12, 2004
    #72
  13. "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:eek:7vWb.8098$yE5.29639@attbi_s54...
    > Good one Dragon Slayer. Do people STILL play D&D?????????????



    I haven't a clue. do they teach chemistry and alkalinity in it?

    kc
     
    Dragon Slayer, Feb 12, 2004
    #73
  14. Re: alkalinity ---long post--

    I should inform you that I have a different reason for asking. I know what booomer says,
    and I know what he says works cause ive done it :D and i know boomer has gone over some of
    this with me before and even a little of that sunk in :D

    > Boomer was discussiing purging CO2 from his tank with by bubbling air. Air
    > contains CO2, as well as O2, N2 etc. Its a mixture of gases. I would think
    > that inorder to purge a gas from solution, you would not want the same gas
    > in the mixture you were using.


    ok now I get what you are saying, now another question does every piece (molecule????) of
    co2 endup in your carbonic acid??
    i spent a few moments searching it *seems* that it doesnt all endup as carbonic acid,
    mostly because carbonic acid is not bio available to microalgae(remember quick search),
    and I know that the microalgae grows like mad when you add co2.

    > In the case of air, CO2 is VERY low in
    > relation to the other gases. It's mostly nitrogen and oxygen. I'm NOT sure
    > if this would work or not. I never tried it. If you could I would think
    > you would need to LOWER the pH to do it effectively, but your fish, snails,
    > coral would hate you for ever! I wouldn't worry about removeing CO2.
    > Raise your alkalinity instead. I dont know about Boomer, but I use a
    > Venturi Skimmer, so I am already bubbling air into my tank like a mad man.


    if your alkalinity is too high in a fish/reef tank you will have other problems. also
    though outside air might be low in co2, co2 is a problem for people using certain types of
    heating and other issues. and degassing for them does work. the same goes for a really
    highly packed tank, think about 1000 clowns breathing in 50 gallons of water.

    i have several issues, my microalgae I try to add as much co2 as i posssibly can, and
    remove as much oxygen w/o removing nitrogen as I can. with my high densitie rotifer and
    brine shrimp cultures (small invertibrates) i need to remove co2 and add oxygen without it
    the cultures will crash. the air's co2 content means nothing as the culture consumes one
    and releases the other. after all a tank full of salt water alone isnt very exciting :D

    > Bubbling pure CO2 will raise your CO2(aq) levels effectively raising your
    > H2CO3 levels etc. No, with regard to oxygen, I said to purge effectively
    > you would ideally want to use a pure gas, like N2, but this would purge out
    > other gases as well. Dont worry about purging. Boomer didnt convince me it
    > works at the pH of an aquarium, but I never tried it and I'm not sure of
    > this. There are MORE effective things you can do to battle CO2. Maintain
    > a good ALKALINITY level.


    IF your alk is too high you end up with calcium levels that are out of wack, also not
    being the chemist ill leave boomer or someone else to explain that ratio.

    > If the pH rises when you pump in air, than yeah, your most likely removeing
    > CO2. How long does it take?


    minutes. the exact time depends and I dont know enough about the variables to tell the
    difference. under 1 when I use oxygen instead of room air.

    > neutralizing
    > > > some of your buffer. You couldn't test for it because once it forms it

    > is
    > > > quickly turned into HCO3- which is in equilibrium with CO3-. At pH

    > 8-8.5.
    > > > You can, however test for your HCO3- and CO3-2 concentration. This is

    > your
    > > > carbonate hardness.

    > >
    > > so what happens at ph 6? or less? understanding your not a biologist

    > neither am I, but
    > > can carbonic acid be consumed like co2 or not?

    >
    > Carbonic acid is in equilibrium with aqueous CO2. Can carbonic acid be
    > consumed? It gets consumed (neutralized) at higher pH's. It is still
    > there. Just its in a different form.


    actually co2 consumed by algaes and other plant life. from a few moments of a search
    carbonic acid is not, BUT it is possible that the algae/plants can seperate the two and
    then consume the co2, they will do that for other things and I dont know yet about
    carbonic acid.

    > In order to keep your pH up you need high alkalinity. To high alkalinity
    > will raise your pH out of spec.


    ok but isnt that a reaction that can be measured the co2 will lower the pH how high does
    my alkalinity need to be to keep the pH between 8 and 10?? with a high co2 level, I cant
    find the chart boomer gave me to measure co2 levels but the with an alk of 3meq/l and a ph
    of say 6

    > No, if you lower the pH you make it EASIER to purge out CO2. Remember, at
    > higher pH's the equilibrium (above) is shifted to the right, away from
    > CO2(solution)


    I still dont quite understand that part. but thats ok for now.

    > No, if you add CO2 you increase CO2(aq) and increase H2CO3 etc. And you
    > lower pH. Not alkalinity. If I said alkalinity, it was a misprint :)


    aha


    --
    Richard Reynolds
    Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
     
    Richard Reynolds, Feb 12, 2004
    #74
  15. Dinky

    Dinky Guest

    "Marc Levenson" <melev@swbell.net> wrote in message
    news:40286FBF.6E364E9B@swbell.net...
    > Boomer, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. Why is chemistry so

    fascinating to you? I
    > was following along for a while, but it just got to close to molecular

    biology for me to
    > continue... ;)



    As the OP, I felt some kind of responsibility to keep reading. I'm
    hopelessly lost....Stout and Boomer gonna just kill each other and be done
    with it, or what? <g>

    billy
     
    Dinky, Feb 12, 2004
    #75
  16. Dinky

    stoutman Guest

    Re: alkalinity ---long post--


    > ok now I get what you are saying, now another question does every piece

    (molecule????) of
    > co2 endup in your carbonic acid??


    NO. CO2(g) is in equilibrium with CO2(aq). The equilibrium is a FUNCTION
    of pH.

    Have you ever added an acid (vinegar) to a baking soda solution and watched
    it bubble as a kid?? This is the reaction. The sodium ion is not included
    in the equilibrium for simplicity. I think this will help.

    CO2 (g) <-------> CO2 (aq) <-------> H2CO3 <-------> HCO3- <-------> H+ +
    CO3-2

    The baking soda (Na+ HCO3-) solution starts out to the RIGHT side of the
    above equilibrium. When you add acid (vinegar) you are pushing the
    equilibrium to the left. At low pH's carbonic acid is decomposes to give
    CO2 (aq) which bubbles out of solution CO2(g). This is an example of what I
    mean when I say that CO2 will purge out of solution EASIER at LOWER pH's.
    As the pH gets lower (more vinegar added) the bubbling gets more vigorous.

    > I should inform you that I have a different reason for asking.


    Your sneaky :)

    > minutes. the exact time depends and I dont know enough about the

    variables to tell the
    > difference. under 1 when I use oxygen instead of room air


    As I mentioned earlier, it should be faster with a pure gas. You used pure
    O2. Should be faster than using a room air and an air stone/pump.

    > I still dont quite understand that part. but thats ok for now.

    See above.


    I don't know how many more posts I can make on this topic. Some are even
    kill filing me, so some are not even seeing this. This may be my last post
    in this thread. I think this topic has been exhausted and so am I.






    "Richard Reynolds" <reynolds46@cox.net> wrote in message
    news:XjFWb.22012$gl2.17121@lakeread05...
    > I should inform you that I have a different reason for asking. I know

    what booomer says,
    > and I know what he says works cause ive done it :D and i know boomer has

    gone over some of
    > this with me before and even a little of that sunk in :D
    >
    > > Boomer was discussiing purging CO2 from his tank with by bubbling air.

    Air
    > > contains CO2, as well as O2, N2 etc. Its a mixture of gases. I would

    think
    > > that inorder to purge a gas from solution, you would not want the same

    gas
    > > in the mixture you were using.

    >
    > ok now I get what you are saying, now another question does every piece

    (molecule????) of
    > co2 endup in your carbonic acid??
    > i spent a few moments searching it *seems* that it doesnt all endup as

    carbonic acid,
    > mostly because carbonic acid is not bio available to microalgae(remember

    quick search),
    > and I know that the microalgae grows like mad when you add co2.
    >
    > > In the case of air, CO2 is VERY low in
    > > relation to the other gases. It's mostly nitrogen and oxygen. I'm NOT

    sure
    > > if this would work or not. I never tried it. If you could I would

    think
    > > you would need to LOWER the pH to do it effectively, but your fish,

    snails,
    > > coral would hate you for ever! I wouldn't worry about removeing CO2.
    > > Raise your alkalinity instead. I dont know about Boomer, but I use a
    > > Venturi Skimmer, so I am already bubbling air into my tank like a mad

    man.
    >
    > if your alkalinity is too high in a fish/reef tank you will have other

    problems. also
    > though outside air might be low in co2, co2 is a problem for people using

    certain types of
    > heating and other issues. and degassing for them does work. the same goes

    for a really
    > highly packed tank, think about 1000 clowns breathing in 50 gallons of

    water.
    >
    > i have several issues, my microalgae I try to add as much co2 as i

    posssibly can, and
    > remove as much oxygen w/o removing nitrogen as I can. with my high

    densitie rotifer and
    > brine shrimp cultures (small invertibrates) i need to remove co2 and add

    oxygen without it
    > the cultures will crash. the air's co2 content means nothing as the

    culture consumes one
    > and releases the other. after all a tank full of salt water alone isnt

    very exciting :D
    >
    > > Bubbling pure CO2 will raise your CO2(aq) levels effectively raising

    your
    > > H2CO3 levels etc. No, with regard to oxygen, I said to purge

    effectively
    > > you would ideally want to use a pure gas, like N2, but this would purge

    out
    > > other gases as well. Dont worry about purging. Boomer didnt convince

    me it
    > > works at the pH of an aquarium, but I never tried it and I'm not sure of
    > > this. There are MORE effective things you can do to battle CO2.

    Maintain
    > > a good ALKALINITY level.

    >
    > IF your alk is too high you end up with calcium levels that are out of

    wack, also not
    > being the chemist ill leave boomer or someone else to explain that ratio.
    >
    > > If the pH rises when you pump in air, than yeah, your most likely

    removeing
    > > CO2. How long does it take?

    >
    > minutes. the exact time depends and I dont know enough about the

    variables to tell the
    > difference. under 1 when I use oxygen instead of room air.
    >
    > > neutralizing
    > > > > some of your buffer. You couldn't test for it because once it forms

    it
    > > is
    > > > > quickly turned into HCO3- which is in equilibrium with CO3-. At pH

    > > 8-8.5.
    > > > > You can, however test for your HCO3- and CO3-2 concentration. This

    is
    > > your
    > > > > carbonate hardness.
    > > >
    > > > so what happens at ph 6? or less? understanding your not a biologist

    > > neither am I, but
    > > > can carbonic acid be consumed like co2 or not?

    > >
    > > Carbonic acid is in equilibrium with aqueous CO2. Can carbonic acid be
    > > consumed? It gets consumed (neutralized) at higher pH's. It is still
    > > there. Just its in a different form.

    >
    > actually co2 consumed by algaes and other plant life. from a few moments

    of a search
    > carbonic acid is not, BUT it is possible that the algae/plants can

    seperate the two and
    > then consume the co2, they will do that for other things and I dont know

    yet about
    > carbonic acid.
    >
    > > In order to keep your pH up you need high alkalinity. To high

    alkalinity
    > > will raise your pH out of spec.

    >
    > ok but isnt that a reaction that can be measured the co2 will lower the pH

    how high does
    > my alkalinity need to be to keep the pH between 8 and 10?? with a high co2

    level, I cant
    > find the chart boomer gave me to measure co2 levels but the with an alk of

    3meq/l and a ph
    > of say 6
    >
    > > No, if you lower the pH you make it EASIER to purge out CO2. Remember,

    at
    > > higher pH's the equilibrium (above) is shifted to the right, away from
    > > CO2(solution)

    >
    > I still dont quite understand that part. but thats ok for now.
    >
    > > No, if you add CO2 you increase CO2(aq) and increase H2CO3 etc. And you
    > > lower pH. Not alkalinity. If I said alkalinity, it was a misprint :)

    >
    > aha
    >
    >
    > --
    > Richard Reynolds
    > Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
    >
    >
     
    stoutman, Feb 12, 2004
    #76
  17. Dinky

    Boomer Guest

    "I am not sure if you are just messing with me "

    Yes, messing with you, it is called trolling a troll, to see where the hell you would go
    and what you would say in regards to last posts. It is called honesty, of which you have
    none off to say the least,that I can see.You always like to post what suits you and just
    avoid ref I give. So lets start where you are WRONG and have a great lack of understanding
    of things, to include pointing out all your gross error which you still FAIL to
    acknowledge and which can be prove in many water chem. ref. .I doubt like hell you are a
    chemist at all.You seem to want to con people into thinkin' you are. But then again, I
    have seen chemists like you before, they are not familiar with the, but they ASK to have
    it explained and ask for REF.YOU just shoot from the hip. WHAT GETS YOU IN TROUBLE. You
    remind me of snoot-noise kid that come here and other NG's and forums...that think they
    know, buy hey, maybe I'm wrong :)



    1). Acidity

    "***Benjamin,Water Chemistry (2002, pages 262-263).***

    ***Acidity A concept that is exactly analogous to alkalinity but measures the base
    neutralizing
    capacity (BNC) of a solution is Acidity. The quantitative represents the concentration of
    OH- ions that must be added to titrate the solution to a pH near 10.5***

    So that means that not only in Benjamin wrong but, so are Stumm & Morgan, Millero, Pilosn,
    Riley & Chester, Pankow, Snoeyink & Jenkins, just to name a few. As I said, you have your
    acidity and Acidy mixed up. Acidity as defined above is covered in most water chemistry
    books, written by chemists, who's field of expertise is water chemistry. You can even buy
    Acidity test kits from, HACH, LaMotte, etc..

    You mean you didn't read this or are you just avoiding it .The same definition can be
    found in almost any std water chemistry book.

    I have run into few chemists, that are NOT familiar with the above. Some water reports
    require the above Acidity measuring. The issue with you is you do not understand WATER
    CHEMISTRY. Everything you have posted can be found a general chemistry book




    2) Alk and BC

    From the link

    Alkalinity
    ***Acid neutralizing or buffering capacity of water; a measure of the ability of water to
    resist changes in pH caused by the addition of acids or bases ***

    This is a Buffering Capacity definition not Alk

    Humm, since when does Alk have anything to do in regards to the addition of BASE. As I
    pointed out in the first post the term is often miss used. Even in YOUR own posts you say
    it is based on a acid addition, no mention of **base or acid** addition by you. Are you
    getting confused or what. Or is more you are trying to confuse everyone you are right. The
    above is a definition for Buffer Capacity NOT Alk

    From Drew, Geochemistry of Natural Waters

    "alkalinity, which is formally defined as the equivalent sum of bases that are titratable
    with strong acid(Stumm & Morgan, 1966; Aquatic Chemistry). If the pH of the solution is
    progressively lowered by the addition of a strong acid (HCL), all the anions on the right
    will be converted to uncharged species (H2CO3,B(OH)3, H4SiO4, H2S,organic acids, H20)"

    This follows almost all description of Alk, that it is acid neutralizing reaction and has
    nothing to do with base neutralizing, which is Acidity (BNC) .I defined these before you
    had no comment


    Even the links that give the Buffering Capacity definition is wrong, as is the UIPAC on
    Alkalinity. Alkalinity has nothing to do with the addition of bases only acids. When you
    use the words "base and acid" it becomes BC

    Even YOU MUST disagree with these definitions, from YOUR own post

    Think of alkalinity as 'buffering capacity'. Or the ability of a solution
    ***to resist a drop in pH due to the addition of acid***

    Where the flip is the base addition forget it ?

    From Butler; Carbon Dioxide Equilibrium and Their Applications (professor emeritus
    Harvard University) an expert on the subject.

    Buffering Index (Buffering Capacity, Buffer Intensity).

    ***This concept was first developed for mixtures of approximately equal proportions of
    conjugate acid and base (i.e., 0.05 M NaHCO3 and .050 M Na2CO3. Such buffer solutions
    strongly resist changes in pH when acids or bases are added and are useful as pH
    standards. The Buffer Index tells how great the resistance to pH changes will be.**

    also from Butler

    Alkalinity = {HCO3-] + 2[CO3] +[OH] - [H+]

    Acidity = [Cl-] - Na+] = [H+] - HCO3 - 2[CO3] - [OH-]

    Acidity is in fact just the negative of Alkalinity ***

    http://www.lagoonsonline.com/acid.htm

    http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/REDLINE_PAGES/D1067.htm?E+mystore

    It sure is funny how all of the chemist that write water chemistry textbooks never say Alk
    is the Buffering Capacity of a solution. They are always treated and defined separately.

    If you or others choose to treat Alk and BC as the same, well, just have at it. As I said
    in first post I know what you mean.

    "No need to cite web pages that describe what I know and what I wrote
    in this discussion"

    No you don't know, who are you trying to convince any way, me, the guys here and/or all
    the water chemists in this world. As I said before go get a dam WATER CHEMISTRY book or
    shut the hell up.You keep trying to define things from a general chemistry book WE ARE IN
    THE WORLD OF WATER CHEMISTRY HERE. Get you definitions straight.





    3). pKa's and what you don't know or seem to be confused on

    "Therefore, it has two pKa's
    (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35. The
    pH of seawater varies from 7.6 to 8.4. Hmmm. That pH I calculated is
    right in there. Is that magic? :)"

    Here it is agin that is twice at least

    "The pKa of CO3-2 is 10.3. Thus, at a pH of 8.3 (seawater for this example)
    you would have a 1 : 100 ratio of CO3-2 and HCO3-2. The equilibrium will
    be shifted to HCO3-2 by a ratio of 1:100.

    Oh wait , there is a third time LOL

    "At the pH of seawater, the buffering capacity of carbonate is at it's
    weakest. It's strongest buffering is at a pH of 6.4 and 10.3."


    Lets just dunk you on this one. I am taking note you refuse to reply to YOUR errors

    So you calculated the pH of seawater with freshwater pKa's, now that is a good trick. From
    a number of seawater chemistry books the seawater pKa's are 6 & 9.1, so according to you,
    seemingly not understanding your favorite Henderson-Hasselbach equation;

    2 pH = (6 + 9.1) /2 pH = 7.55

    I have never seen seawater with a pH of 7.55. There is no ocean with that pH. Humm how
    come your equation is not working for you today.?


    "That pH I calculated is
    right in there. Is that magic? :)"

    I roll on the floor when I see this = 8.35

    Hum , just a brain far so excuse me for thinkin

    (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35

    Ok, we know those are FW pKa's. So, hummmmmm how come FW isn't at a pH of 8.35 there pal
    ? That 8.35 is what you are telling people the pH should be, but their meter says 6.4.
    This how people will READ this.




    4.) More on Buffering Capacity

    "Do you recognize [HCO3-1] and [CO3-2] from another equation ? Yes, your
    alkalinity equation."'


    Yup, I see that and in this case the HCO3 is the acid and the CO3 is the base CORRECT. In
    Alk you are only dealing with bases and how they react to an acid. Acidity deals acids and
    how they recact to bases "Acidity, A concept that is exactly analogous to alkalinity but
    measures the base neutralizing
    capacity (BNC) of a solution is Acidity "Alk is the ANC Acid neutralizing capacity

    "Don't the components of a buffer account for the buffering capacity? "

    Yes, they do but so do the acids which work as buffers. NaHCO3 is a buffer and can act as
    an acid or base

    *** Buffering Capacity.**
    The power of a substance in solution to absorb acid or alkali without change in pH; this
    is highest at a pH value equal to the pKa value of the acid of the buffer pair.***

    ***Akalinity***
    Measure of the power of a solution to neutralise hydrogen ions (H+), usually expressed as
    the equivalent concentration (mg/L) of calcium carbonate (CaCO3).


    If one wants to call Alk Buffering capacity then one sure as a hell can call Acidty
    Buffering Capacity also. As it is the ability to neutralizes an acid that is a buffer.You
    have a pH of 7 and you add a buffer to lower it to a pH of 4, you are buffering the water,
    that buffer is a acid.

    5) CO2

    You are really confuse so it seems :) You realllllllly indicate that CO2 is affected by
    the Alk or vise-versa

    "Yes, the pH will drop with the addition of CO2. Remove CO2 will cause the
    pH to rise? How do you remove CO2? Once it is in solution it forms
    carbonic acid and neutralizes some of your 'buffer'."

    "With the exception of CO2?"

    No it doesn't, CO2 has ZERO effect on Alk (Pankow, Aquatic Chemistry
    Concepts)....PERIOD.You seem to think a that at least in two of your post that CO2 is
    affected by the Alk or vise-versa. Please go back to school or seek professor

    "Why in one case does CO2 from air lower pH and in the other case it raises
    it? Doesn't make sense."

    That is because you don't understand CO2 period. By the way I saved this, wanted to see
    if you would bite on the post I gave. Not bite at first, so time to reel you in, as you
    did bite in another post..

    Lets make some sense of it for you, being that you have a pH.D in chemistry, so you say .

    CO2 is naturally generated in a aquatic systems, it is capable of raise to various levels
    depending on a number of circumstances .It can be measure (except in seawater) or
    calculated using Buch/Park Equations (what we use for seawater. In sort if you know the pH
    and Alk you can calculate the CO2). If you aerate a system or a sample of water, even if
    the pH has only dropped a couple of tenths, due to an increase in CO2, the CO2 will leave
    solution to the atmosphere.This will raise the pH. On the other hand if theCO2 level is
    more of the norm and you have hikgh room air, such as in the winter, the partial pressure
    of the CO2 in air will be much higher than that in water, in which case the CO2 will enter
    the water and lower the pH. That is without an airstone. Adding an airstone will make it
    even worse,as you are now forcefully driving the CO2 into solution even quicker. These
    test /experiments have been proven many times, it is not that may work could work they do
    work.Yet you want to disagree and in another post say you haven't tried it,.Seems to me
    that based on what you say it can't work So, in short you don't know what the hell you are
    taking about. Go get a glass of seawater with a pH of about 8.3 and lower it to about
    8.0.-81 with CO2, then aerated it and watch the pH go the HELL-BACK- UP ( that is if you
    don't have a high room air CO2 problem.). This little test has been done thousands of
    times in this hobby, with test kits, pH meters and even graphic printers.

    "This is where Boomer and I
    disagree. I say you would have to lower the pH very low in order to
    effectively remove CO2 by purging."

    You are 100 % wrong. Please come to our Chem forum and try and run that by Randy, don't
    take my word on it. I already know what he will say.

    "Boomer didnt convince me it
    works at the pH of an aquarium, but I never tried it and I'm not sure of
    this. "

    Well then come too our chem. forum and tell Randy he doesn't know what he is talking about
    LOL. It is a realllllllllly easy test, having a Ph.D in chemistry, it should be easy for
    you to run the experiment LOL There are grade school kids that run the test and know what
    happens and that I'm correct.


    "The equilibrium is a FUNCTION
    of pH."

    It is also a function of Alk or don't you know that. At a pH of 8.3, Alk 2.25, the CO2 is
    about .45 meq / l, in seawater, @25C and 35 ppt. If you raise the Alk to about .4 meq/ l
    or so the CO2 will be around .99 mg / l CO2, When dealing with tanksCO2 is not always in
    equilibrium with ambient air.


    ". But I wouldn't degas a solution of a
    specific gas (CO2) with a gas (this case he was using air) that contains the
    same gas I am trying to purge."

    Why not ? We have a guy right now that is running tests on purging ambient air with a
    solution to remove CO2 gas from the air, before it enters the tank per/Randy's suggestion.
    The same guy is doing some of my test using a Clinoptilolite, a Zeolite mineral, that has
    an affinity for CO2.This will be a dry CO2 scrubber


    Sorry Soutman but you sure as hell don't seem to know much about aquatic chemistry. You
    seem to be guessing at everything.

    By the way have you read any of Randy's technical articles on water chemistry, been saving
    these for last. There are a few on pH, Alk, CO2 .Here is a list

    Try and answer them 1-5 and lets see where we get THIS TIME :) or maybe we should just
    drop it. I could care less at this point.

    THE END


    ARTICLES

    The first two posts in this thread are lists of some of my articles that relate to reef
    tank chemistry. In the next few posts are some of the articles published by Craig Bingman
    and others on reef chemistry issues.

    The first two posts in this thread are lists of some of my articles that relate to reef
    tank chemistry. In the next few posts are some of the articles published by Craig Bingman
    and others on reef chemistry issues.

    Solving Common Problems

    Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

    Solutions to pH Problems
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2002/chem.htm

    How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

    Phosphate Issues
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2002/chem.htm

    Nitrate Issues
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...st2003/chem.htm



    Calcium and Alkalinity

    Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

    How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

    Calcium and Alkalinity Balance Issues
    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm

    Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement (Aragamight; Liquid Reactor)
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ly2002/chem.htm

    The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH.
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

    The Chemical & Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification in Corals
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm

    Calcium
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2002/chem.htm

    Alkalinity
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...2/chemistry.htm


    Iron

    First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

    Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm

    Iodine

    Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm

    Iodine in Reef Tanks 2: Effects on Macroalgae Growth
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...il2003/chem.htm


    Magnesium and Strontium

    Strontium
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/chem.htm

    Magnesium
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

    Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm


    Limewater (kalkwasser)

    The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser)
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm

    The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air
    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm

    How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

    Metals in Aquaria

    Aluminum and aluminum-based phosphate binders
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ly2003/chem.htm

    Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals
    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm

    Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm
    First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

    Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm


    Test Kit Reviews

    The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2003/chem.htm

    The Salifert Boron Test Kit
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2003/chem.htm

    Boron and Borate (and pH buffering)

    Boron in a Reef Tank (and its effect on pH buffering)
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2002/chem.htm

    The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2003/chem.htm

    The Salifert Boron Test Kit
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2003/chem.htm



    Others

    Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

    ORP
    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm

    Chloramine
    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm

    Silica in a Reef Tank
    http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm

    Specific Gravity (and temperature correction of hydrometers)
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...2/chemistry.htm


    The Complete Nitrogen Cycle
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...a&RecordNo=3090

    Magnesium (older article with fonts screwed up)
    http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=

    Phosphate (older article now reproduced in a poor fashion)
    http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=

    Carbon Dioxide
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...a&RecordNo=2074

    Using Conductivity to Measure Salinity
    http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=

    Understanding Seawater
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp

    Protein Skimming: How It Works
    http://home.mweb.co.za/jv/jv79/reef/skimmers2.html



    Articles by Craig Bingman:

    Carbon Dioxide tests
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...n=&RecordNo=279

    Limewater, Acetic Acid and Sand Clumping
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...n=&RecordNo=181

    Calcium and Alkalinity
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Calculation of Calcium Carbonate Saturation States in Reef Aquaria
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp


    Calcification Rates in Several Tropical Coral Reef Aquaria
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Limits To Limewater...Revisited
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Expanding the Limits of Limewater: Adding Organic Carbon Sources (vinegar)
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp


    Magnesium Ion Precipitation in Reef Aquaria: A Tempest in a Teapot
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Magnesium - Part I
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Magnesium - Part II
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    A Homemade Magnesium Supplement
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions on Reef Systems
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride
    /Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp


    More articles by Craig Bingman:

    The Halogens - Part I: Bromine in Seawater and Aquaria
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    The Halogens - Part II: Fluoride
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Fluoride Depletion In Four Reef Aquariums
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    The Halogens - Part III: Iodine
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Measuring Halides
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    How Test Kits Work
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Borax pH Calibration
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    A pH Detective Story
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    How to Mix a Batch of Synthetic Seawater in Under Five Minutes
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    Increasing Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide: Likely Effects on Coral Reefs
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp

    SILICON - FOE OR FRIEND?
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp

    The Composition Of Several Synthetic Seawater Mixes
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp

    Calcium Carbonate for CaCO3/CO2 Reactors: More Than Meets the Eye
    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp



    Andy's calcium calculator
    http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/cacalc.htm

    Greg Hillers analysis of limestone media for CaCO3/CO2 reactors
    http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=

    Calcium Reactor Substrate -- Phosphate Levels
    by Greg Hiller
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...l2003/short.htm


    Indoor CO2 Problems
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...r2002/short.htm

    Simon Huntington's CaCO3/CO2 reactor article

    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm

    Ron Shimek's Tank Water Analysis Article
    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm




    Home made salinity standards thread:

    http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...?threadid=65509

    Reef Chemicals Calculator
    http://www.kademani.com/reefchem.htm



    Boomer

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    WCWing@Chartermi.Net
    Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up


    --
    Boomer

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ?
    Please Join Our Growing Membership
    www.coralrealm.com

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:aGuWb.148227$U%5.676753@attbi_s03...
    : Boomer,
    :
    : I am not sure if you are just messing with me or if you are truly confused.
    : I hope the latter. Please read from Top to Bottom.
    :
    :
    : From YOUR first link:
    :
    : http://www.waterontheweb.org/resources/glossary.html
    :
    : Acidity:
    : A measure of how acid a solution may be. A solution with a pH of less than
    : 7.0 is considered acidic. Solutions with a pH of less than 4.5 contain
    : mineral acidity (due to strong inorganic acids), while a solution having a
    : pH greater than 8.3 contains no acidity.
    :
    : Yes,
    :
    : Good definition (for the most part). pH <7 is indeed acidic. pH > 7 is
    : basic. Your web page had a definition for acidity, but not basicity.
    : Strange. That's like defining GOOD and not defining BAD.
    :
    : Here is the IUPAC (International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry)
    : definition of acidity:
    :
    : http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/index.html
    :
    : acidity
    :
    : (1) Of a compound:
    :
    : For Brønsted acids it means the tendency of a compound to act as a hydron
    : donor. It can be quantitatively expressed by the acid dissociation constant
    : of the compound in water or some other specified medium. For Lewis acids it
    : relates to the association constants of Lewis adducts and -adducts.
    :
    : (2) Of a medium:
    :
    : The use of the term is mainly restricted to a medium containing Brønsted
    : acids, where it means the tendency of the medium to hydronate a specific
    : reference base
    :
    : basicity
    :
    : For Brønsted bases it means the tendency of a compound to act as hydron
    : (proton) acceptor. The basicity of a chemical species is normally expressed
    : by the acidity of the conjugate acid (see conjugate acid-base pair). For
    : Lewis bases it relates to the association constants of Lewis adducts
    : and -adducts
    :
    :
    :
    : Another definition from the same web page YOU cited: (this is the same web
    : page you cited above)
    :
    : Alkalinity:
    : Acid neutralizing or buffering capacity of water; a measure of the ability
    : of water to resist changes in pH caused by the addition of acids or bases
    : and therefore, the main indicator of susceptibility to acid rain; in natural
    : waters it is due primarily to the presence of bicarbonates, carbonates and
    : to a much lesser extent occasionally borates, silicates and phosphates. It
    : is expressed in units of milligrams per liter (mg/l) of CaCO3 (calcium
    : carbonate) or as microequivalents per liter (ueq/l) where 20 ueq/l = 1 mg/l
    : of CaCO3. A solution having a pH below about 5 contains no alkalinity.
    :
    : Your own post defines alkalinity as BUFFERING CAPACITY OF WATER and says
    : that alkalinity is the measure of ...(description of a buffer)
    :
    : A BUFFER IS : a measure of the ability of water to resist changes in pH
    : caused by the addition of acids or bases (from definition below)
    :
    :
    : I said:
    : ***alkalinity is a measurement of 'buffering capacity'***
    :
    : You said:
    : ***Alkalinity is not a measurement of BC
    :
    : WHY WOULD YOU POST A LINK THAT CONTRADICTS WHAT YOU SAID?? This is not
    : logical.
    :
    : (THIS FROM THE SAME WEB PAGE YOU CITED):
    :
    : Buffer:
    : A substance which tends to keep pH levels fairly constant when acids or
    : bases are added.
    :
    : THIS IS FROM THE DEFINITION OF ALKALINITY FROM SAME WEB PAGE.
    :
    : a measure of the ability of water to resist changes in pH caused by the
    : addition of acids or bases
    :
    : SO DON'T TELL ME THIS SENTENCE DOESN'T DESCRIBE THE ACTIONS OF A BUFFER.
    :
    :
    : I went to all four links. None contradict what I have said. But the first
    : one you cited contradicts YOU!
    :
    : I know what a buffer is. I know what acidity means. I know what alkalinity
    : means. No need to cite web pages that describe what I know and what I wrote
    : in this discussion. Show me one that says alkalinity is not a measure of
    : buffering capacity from a credible source.
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    : "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    : news:102kn4e6f2vvb1@corp.supernews.com...
    : > Alkalinity a measure of the amount of anions of weak acid in water and of
    : the cations
    : > balanced against them
    : > Take note it says ***acid***
    : >
    : > Buffering capacity the ability of a solution to resist or dampen changes
    : in pH upon the
    : > addition of acids or bases.
    : > Take note its says ***the addition of acids or bases***
    : >
    : > One more
    : >
    : > http://www.waterontheweb.org/resources/glossary.html
    : >
    : > We could go on like this all day, so what is the point ?
    : >
    : > You will LOVE this one
    : > http://www.kyantec.com/Tips/phbuffering.htm
    : >
    : > Don't you just lovbe PDF's
    : > http://www.inform.umd.edu/manurenet/reprints/98.1702.pdf
    : >
    : > Don't fall out of your chair
    : > http://www.chemforlife.org/teacher/topics/chemistry_in_an_aquarium.htm
    : >
    : >
    : >
    : >
    : > --
    : > Boomer
    : >
    : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    : >
    : > Want to See More ?
    : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
    : > www.coralrealm.com
    : >
    : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    : > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:XB7Wb.19339$QA2.62332@attbi_s52...
    : > : Man here is another, google is a wonderful thing. I'm not filtering any
    : > : out, just posting what I find by GOOGLING for you.
    : > :
    : > : http://www.globe.gov/hq/trr_suppl/hydro/HY_SUP_ALK_INTRO_NOTES.HTML
    : > :
    : > :
    : > : Wow, a gov link. Even the government is wrong, this must be a
    : conspiracy
    : > : against Boomer.
    : > :
    : > :
    : > :
    : > :
    : > : "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    : > : news:102ht0bjplpo059@corp.supernews.com...
    : > : > Now I am getting bored
    : > : >
    : > : > "Don't the components of a buffer account for the buffering capacity?
    : > : Yes."
    : > : >
    : > : > Yes, agreed but you seem to fail what I'm saying. Buffering Capacity
    : and
    : > : Alkalinity are
    : > : > not the same, that has always been the issue. I gave the equation does
    : > : that look like an
    : > : > Alkalinity equation or how Alk is determined. I see you had now
    : comments
    : > : on it what's
    : > : > wrong, why no comments on the equations I gave. Don't understand them
    : or
    : > : what ? Again this
    : > : > is the equation for Buffering Capacity, also called Buffer Index or
    : Buffer
    : > : Intensity. It
    : > : > is defined in most water chemistry and chemical oceanography text
    : books.
    : > : >
    : > : > B (Buffering Capacity) = dCb / dpH = 2.303 ( Kw/[H30+] + [H30+] +
    : CKa
    : > : [H3O+] / (Ka =
    : > : > H3O+])² )
    : > : >
    : > : > This is not Alkalinity now is it ?
    : > : >
    : > : > "I know how to do a titration, In fact I have done several. How many
    : have
    : > : > you actually done? I don't mean by counting drops, I mean with a
    : buret?"
    : > : >
    : > : > Well good for you, I use a Digital Titrator
    : > : >
    : > : > "Oh, I see,
    : > : > you think acidity is the opposite of alkalinity. In the world of
    : > : CHEMISTRY
    : > : > it's not. Maybe in aquarium newsgroups it is.
    : > : >
    : > : > Hum no, maybe you should go for a look at HACH's or LaMotte website or
    : the
    : > : book I
    : > : > suggested earlier. Please view a copy.
    : > : >
    : > : > Standard Methods for the Examination of Water and Wastewater
    : > : >
    : > : > This book, over 2000 pages, is the guide for water testing. If you are
    : > : reporting water
    : > : > test to the EPA you must use approved std from this text.I t is
    : prepared
    : > : and published by
    : > : > the EPA, American Water Works Association and American Public Health
    : > : Association. You
    : > : > mean you don't have one and the issue is water chemistry
    : > : >
    : > : > You are confusing Acidity and Acidity as you know little about water
    : > : chemistry and
    : > : > procedures and test methods
    : > : >
    : > : > From SMEWW, section 2-30, 2310 ACIDITY
    : > : >
    : > : > "Acidity of water is its quantative capacity to react with a strong
    : base
    : > : to a designated
    : > : > pH"
    : > : >
    : > : > This is how you test for it
    : > : >
    : > : > A std alkali titration to methyl orange or phenolphthalein
    : > : > endpoint.
    : > : >
    : > : > BUT YOU SAID THIS IS WRONG. Please tell all the chemist that write
    : this
    : > : book, there are
    : > : > over 100 of them, they are wrong.
    : > : >
    : > : > Like Buffering Capacity you have your Acidity's mixed up
    : > : > In water measurement if you have a high Alk you also usually have a
    : high
    : > : Acidity.
    : > : > Normally a high Alk also gives a higher CO2 level. Get a WATER
    : CHEMISTRY
    : > : BOOK there pal.
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > "These are all in equilibrium with each other. An initial high pH
    : (above
    : > : > 6.4) will shift the equilibrium to the right to form HCO3-1. If the
    : pH of
    : > : > the solution is above 10.3 (pKa2) the .........."
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > Christ, there you go again with the FW shit. All your numbers are
    : wrong we
    : > : are dealing
    : > : > with SEAWATER
    : > : >
    : > : > This means that at a pH of 8.3, the majority of the CO2(aq) is in the
    : form
    : > : > of HCO3-1 .
    : > : >
    : > : > I have already pointed that out and gave actual values at know
    : seawater
    : > : levels, go back
    : > : > and re-read it you aren't telling me anything here.Of course most is
    : HCO3
    : > : see...
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > @ 20C and 34.3 ppt salinity
    : > : >
    : > : > CO2 = 0.52 %
    : > : >
    : > : > HCO3 = 86.4 %
    : > : >
    : > : > CO3 = 13.09 %
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > "In your glass experiment you managed to lower the pH enough to purge
    : out
    : > : CO2
    : > : > by boiling"
    : > : >
    : > : > The purpose behind the glass is to show that alk is not affect by CO2
    : and
    : > : vise-versa and
    : > : > how Co2 affects pH.
    : > : >
    : > : > Now, in a real life seawater aquarium, with a pH of 8.3 and that pH
    : drops
    : > : to say 8.1 it is
    : > : > usually due to excess CO2. If you took a glass of that water and
    : aerated
    : > : it you WILL drive
    : > : > off the CO2 and raise the pH. It has been done a proven a million
    : times.
    : > : >
    : > : > "In order to 'purge' CO2 you would need to lower the
    : > : > pH to shift the equilibrium to below 6.4"
    : > : >
    : > : > The hell you do !!!.Do you know who many times people on this NG to
    : > : include Dr. Craig
    : > : > Bingman a chemist and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley have mentioned to take a
    : > : sample of aquarium
    : > : > water and aerate it to see if the pH GOES UP AND when they come back
    : with
    : > : the test it is
    : > : > often YES the pH went back up. PROBLEM THERE MISTER PH.D CHEMIST
    : excess
    : > : CO2 in the tank
    : > : > water, increase the circulation for better gas exchange at the
    : surface,
    : > : reduce feeding,
    : > : > and try to improve on better skimming, thus reducing the bio-load and
    : pH
    : > : decline due to
    : > : > CO2.
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > "I hope this helps. "
    : > : >
    : > : > Help, how can you when you miss everything. I should be charging you
    : > : >
    : > : > Oh, by the way. Your websites, I have about 50 on these issues, I
    : could
    : > : post them, not to
    : > : > mention I have all those water chemistry books, so there is no need to
    : > : view your sites.
    : > : >
    : > : > Finally are you afraid to come to our Chemistry Forum, afraid to get
    : > : slapped by REAL
    : > : > chemists. I get a charge out of you can't post your ref .I have posted
    : the
    : > : same or similar
    : > : > stuff on his forum and I wasn't pointed out WRONG pal. I have 1500
    : posts
    : > : there and am the
    : > : > biggest contributor to his forum other than himself or maybe Habib
    : Sheka
    : > : >
    : > : > Hum, here are Randy's ref that he posted. He hosts the website
    : > : >
    : > : > S. RANDY HOLMES-FARLEY
    : > : > Arlington, Massachusetts
    : > : >
    : > : > EDUCATION
    : > : >
    : > : > 1982-1986 Harvard University Cambridge, MA
    : > : > PhD in Chemistry
    : > : > Research Advisor: George Whitesides
    : > : >
    : > : > Investigated the relationship between polymer surface chemistry and
    : > : physical properties
    : > : > through controlled surface modification and testing.
    : > : >
    : > : > 1980-1982 Cornell University Ithaca, NY
    : > : > BA in Chemistry and Biology
    : > : > Graduated Summa Cum Laude
    : > : > Distinction in All Subjects
    : > : > Grade Point: 3.94/4.0
    : > : > Honors research: isolation and characterization of the subunit of CF1
    : > : enzyme
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > 1978-1979 Stanford University Palo Alto, CA
    : > : > Grade Point: 3.55/4.0
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > EXPERIENCE
    : > : >
    : > : > 1992- present Genzyme Drug Disvcovery and Development Waltham, MA
    : > : > (bought out GelTex Pharmaceuticals in 2001)
    : > : > Vice President, Chemical Research 2001-present
    : > : > Senior Director, Chemical Research 1999-2001
    : > : > Director of Chemical Research 1997-1999
    : > : > Manager of Chemical Research 1995-1997
    : > : > Group Leader 1994-1995
    : > : > Senior Research Scientist 1992-1994
    : > : >
    : > : > Helped start GelTex as second employee
    : > : >
    : > : > Managed various research programs with multi-million dollar budgets
    : > : >
    : > : > Supervised research chemists (17+)
    : > : >
    : > : > Co-inventor of several polymeric pharmaceuticals and pharmaceutical
    : > : candidates including
    : > : > Sevelamer Hydrochloride (FDA approved) and Colesevelam Hydrochloride
    : (FDA
    : > : approved)
    : > : >
    : > : > Company Safety Officer for 3 years
    : > : >
    : > : > Chemical Hygiene Officer 2000-present
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > 1990-1992 GTE Corporation Waltham, MA
    : > : > Senior Member of Technical Staff
    : > : > Applied research involving polymer interfaces
    : > : > Metallization of plastics
    : > : > Polymer/polymer adhesion
    : > : > Optical coatings
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > 1986-1990 Lord Corporation Cary, NC
    : > : > Senior Research Scientist 1988-1990
    : > : > Research Scientist 1986-1988
    : > : > Basic and applied research on surface chemical bonding
    : > : > Developed new adhesive compositions
    : > : > Developed new sol-gel coatings for corrosion resistance
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > HONORS AND AWARDS
    : > : >
    : > : > Industrial Innovations Award by Northeast Region of American Chemical
    : > : Society (6/2001)
    : > : >
    : > : > National Kidney Foundation of Northern California Honoree (5/2001)
    : > : >
    : > : > American Chemical Society/Polymer Chemistry Division Industrial
    : Sponsors
    : > : > Award (8/2000)
    : > : >
    : > : > R&D 100 Award from R&D magazine (1999)
    : > : >
    : > : > Sherwin Williams Award in applied polymer science (9/85)
    : > : >
    : > : > IBM Predoctoral Fellowship in Polymer Science (1984-1985; 1985-1986)
    : > : >
    : > : > Award for highest GPA in Chemistry Department (6/82)
    : > : >
    : > : > Summa Cum Laude Honors in Chemistry (6/82)
    : > : >
    : > : > Phi Lamda Epsilon (6/82)
    : > : >
    : > : > Phi Beta Kappa (2/82)
    : > : >
    : > : > Cornell University Dean's List (1981, 1982)
    : > : >
    : > : > Harvard Book Club Award for highest GPA senior year (1978)
    : > : >
    : > : > First Place in western NY ACS high school chemistry exam (1977)
    : > : >
    : > : > 1978-1979
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > __________________
    : > : > Randy Holmes-Farley
    : > : > Want to talk chemistry? Try the Reef Chemistry Forum at Reef Central
    : > : >
    : > : > Hobby Experience: 8 years with reefs
    : > : > Current Tanks: 90 gal mixed reef
    : > : > Interests: Reefkeeping, science, photography
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley on 10/01/2003 at 07:49 PM
    : > : >
    : > : > Open this post in a new window | Report this post to a moderator | IP:
    : > : Logged
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > 06/27/2003 02:44 PM
    : > : >
    : > : > Randy Holmes-Farley
    : > : > Chemistry Moderator
    : > : >
    : > : > Registered: Apr 2001
    : > : > Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
    : > : > Occupation: Chemist (Drug Discovery at Genzyme)
    : > : > Posts: 15282
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > Publications
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > ISSUED UNITED STATES PATENTS
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > 1. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall;
    : > : Mandeville, III; W. Harry.
    : > : > US 6,566,407; 5/20/2003
    : > : >
    : > : > 2. Polyether-based bile acid sequestrants. Holmes-Farley, Stephen
    : Randall;
    : > : Huval, Chad
    : > : > Cori.
    : > : > U.S. 6,517,825; 2/11/2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 3. Method of making phosphate-binding polymers for oral
    : administration.
    : > : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : > Stephen R.; Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Whitesides; George M. U.S.
    : > : 6,509,013; 1/21/2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 4. Combination therapy for treating hypercholesterolemia using a bile
    : acid
    : > : sequestrant
    : > : > polymer
    : > : > and a cholesterol-lowering agent. Huval, Chad Cori; Holmes-Farley,
    : Stephen
    : > : Randall;
    : > : > Petersen, John S.; Dhal, Pradeep K. U.S. 6,433,026; 8/13/2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 5. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with polyallylamine
    : polymers.
    : > : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : > Stephen Randall; Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Burke, Steven K.;
    : Goldberg,
    : > : Dennis I. , US
    : > : > 6,423,754; 7/23/2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 6. Ionic polymers as anti-infective agents Mandeville, W. Harry, III;
    : > : Neenan, Thomas X..;
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall;, US 6,395,777; 5/28/2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 7. Combination therapy for treating hypercholesterolemia and
    : > : atherosclerosis. Huval, Chad
    : > : > Cori; Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall; Petersen, John S.; Dhal, Pradeep
    : K.
    : > : U.S. 6,365,186;
    : > : > 4/2/2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 8. Fat binding polymers. Jozefiak, T.; Holmes-Farley; S. R.;
    : Mandeville,
    : > : W. H., III;
    : > : > Huval; C.
    : > : > C.; Garigapati, V. R.; Shackett, K. K.; Concagh, D, US 6,299,868;
    : > : 10/9/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 9. Polymers containing guanidinium groups as bile acid sequestrants.
    : Dhal;
    : > : P. K.; Holmes-
    : > : > Farley; S. R.; Petersen; J. S. US 6,294,163; 9/25/2001
    : > : >
    : > : > 10. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W.
    : H.,
    : > : III.; US
    : > : > 6,281,252;
    : > : > 8/28/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 11. Combination therapy for treating hypercholestrolemia. Huval; C.
    : C.;
    : > : Holmes-Farley; S.
    : > : > R. ;
    : > : > Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K. ; US 6,264,938; 7/24/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 12. Fat-binding polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.; Whitesides, G. M.;
    : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : > : > R.; US
    : > : > 6,264,937; 7/24/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 13. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with unsubstituted
    : > : polydiallylamine polymers.
    : > : > Huval; C. C.; Holmes-Farley; S. R. ; Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K. ; US
    : > : 6,248,318;
    : > : > 6/19/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 14. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and alkylated
    : > : compositions therefore.
    : > : > Mandeville, W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,225,355; 5/1/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 15. Poly(diallylamine)-based bile acid sequestrants. Holmes-Farley, S.
    : R.;
    : > : Dhal, P. K.;
    : > : > Petersen,
    : > : > J. S.; US 6,203,785; 3/20/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 16. Polyether-Based Bile Acid Sequestrants. Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    : Huval,
    : > : C. C.; US
    : > : > 6,190,649;
    : > : > 2/20/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 17. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W.
    : H.,
    : > : III.; US
    : > : > 6,177,478;
    : > : > 1/23/2001.
    : > : >
    : > : > 18. Water-insoluble noncrosslinked bile acid sequestrants.
    : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : S. R.;
    : > : > Mandeville, W.
    : > : > H., III.; US 6,129,910; 10/10/2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 19. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with unsubstituted
    : > : polydiallylamine polymers.
    : > : > Huval; C. C.; Holmes-Farley; S. R. ; Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K. ; US
    : > : 6,083,497;
    : > : > 7/4/2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 20. Method of making phosphate-binding polymers for oral
    : administration.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : > : > R.; Mandeville, W. H., III.; ; Whitesides, G. M. ; US 6,083,495;
    : 7/4/2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 21. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and alkylated
    : > : compositions therefore.
    : > : > Mandeville, W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,066,678;
    : 5/23/2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 22. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and compositions
    : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    : > : > W. H.,
    : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,060,517; 5/9/2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 23. Ionic polymers as anti-infective agents. Mandeville, III; W. H;
    : > : Neenan; T. X.; Holmes-
    : > : > Farley; S. R. US 6,034,129; 3/7/2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 24. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W.
    : H.,
    : > : III.; US
    : > : > 5,985,938;
    : > : > 11/16/99.
    : > : >
    : > : > 25. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and compositions
    : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    : > : > W. H.,
    : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,981,693; 11/9/99.
    : > : >
    : > : > 26. Hydrophobic sequestrant for cholesterol depletion. Mandeville, W.
    : H.,
    : > : III.;
    : > : > Holmes-Farley;
    : > : > S. R.; Petersen; J. S.. US 5,969,090; 10/19/99.
    : > : >
    : > : > 27. Hydrophilic nonamine-containing and amine-containing copolymers
    : and
    : > : their use as bile
    : > : > acid sequestrants. Holmes-Farley; S. R.; Petersen; J. S.. US
    : 5,929,184;
    : > : 7/27/99.
    : > : >
    : > : > 28. Interpenetrating polymer networks for sequestration of bile acids.
    : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : > : > III.;
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Neenan; T. X.; Whitesides; G. M. US 5,925,379;
    : > : 7/20/99.
    : > : >
    : > : > 29. Amine polymer sequestrant and method of cholesterol depletion.
    : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : > : > III.;
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,919,832; 7/6/99.
    : > : >
    : > : > 30. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and compositions
    : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    : > : > W. H.,
    : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,917,007; 6/29/99.
    : > : >
    : > : > 31. Polyamine salt hydrophobic sequestrant for cholesterol depletion.
    : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : > : > III.;
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; US 5,900,475; 5/4/99.
    : > : >
    : > : > 32. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and compositions
    : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    : > : > W. H.,
    : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,840,766; 11/24/98.
    : > : >
    : > : > 33. Preparation of polymeric sequestrants for bile acid salts.
    : Mandeville,
    : > : W. H., III.;
    : > : > Holmes-
    : > : > Farley, S. R.; US 5,703,188; 12/30/97.
    : > : >
    : > : > 34. Oral administration of iron-binding crosslinked amine polymers.
    : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : > : > III.;
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,702,696; 12/30/97.
    : > : >
    : > : > 35. Alkylated amine polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley,
    : S.
    : > : R.; US 5,693,675;
    : > : > 12/2/97.
    : > : >
    : > : > 36. Method for removing bile salts from a patient with alkylated
    : > : crosslinked amine
    : > : > polymers,
    : > : > and preparation of the polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.;
    : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : S. R.; US
    : > : > 5,679,717; 10/21/97.
    : > : >
    : > : > 37. Phosphate-binding polymers for oral administration. Holmes-Farley,
    : S.
    : > : R.; Mandeville,
    : > : > W.
    : > : > H., III.; US 5,667,775; 9/16/97.
    : > : >
    : > : > 38. Ion-exchange process using highly crosslinked polymers for
    : removing
    : > : bile salts from a
    : > : > patient, preparation of the polymers, and compositions containing
    : them.
    : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,624,963; 4/29/97.
    : > : >
    : > : > 39. Hydrophobic amine polymer sequestrant and method of cholesterol
    : > : depletion. Mandeville,
    : > : > W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; US 5,618,530;
    : 4/8/97.
    : > : >
    : > : > 40. Amine polymer sequestrant and method of cholesterol depletion.
    : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : > : > III.;
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,607,669; 3/4/97.
    : > : >
    : > : > 41. Phosphate-binding polymers for oral administration. Holmes-Farley,
    : S.
    : > : R.; Mandeville,
    : > : > W.
    : > : > H., III.; US 5,496,545; 3/5/96.
    : > : >
    : > : > 42. Iron-binding polymers for oral administration. Mandeville, W. H.,
    : > : III.; Holmes-Farley,
    : > : > S. R.;
    : > : > US 5,487,888; 1/30/96.
    : > : >
    : > : > 43. Ultra-thin, uniform sol-gel coating of a substrate having active
    : > : hydrogens on the
    : > : > surface.
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Yanyo, L. C.; US 5,175,027; 12/29/92.
    : > : >
    : > : > 44. Layered sol-gel coatings from organisilicon compounds.
    : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : S. R.; Yanyo, L.
    : > : > C.;
    : > : > US 5,182,143; 1/26/93.
    : > : >
    : > : > 45. Method for metal bonding using ultrathin primer coating.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Yanyo,
    : > : > L.
    : > : > C.; Thuer, A. M.; US 5,139,601; 8/18/92.
    : > : >
    : > : > 46. Acrylic adhesive compositions. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Abbey, K. J.;
    : US
    : > : 5,096,962;
    : > : > 3/17/92.
    : > : >
    : > : > 47. Modified halogenatedpolyolefin adhesives for polyolefin
    : > : elastomer-metal bonding.
    : > : > Holmes-
    : > : > Farley, S. R.; US 5,102,956; 4/7/92.
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > PUBLISHED PATENT APPLICATIONS (FOREIGN ISSUED ONLY OR NOT ISSUED)
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > 1. Aryl boronate functionalized polymers for treating obesity and
    : > : inhibiting fat uptake.
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall; Mandeville, Harry W., III; Dhal,
    : Pradeep
    : > : K.; Huval, Chad
    : > : > Cori; Li, Xinhua; Polomoscanik, Steven C. PCT Int. Appl. (2003), 92
    : pp. WO
    : > : 0302571.
    : > : >
    : > : > 2. Preparation of aryl boronic acids for treating obesity.
    : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : Stephen Randall;
    : > : > Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Huval, Chad Cori; Li, Xinhua; Dhal, Pradeep
    : K.
    : > : (Geltex
    : > : > Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (2003), 62 pp. WO 0302570.
    : > : >
    : > : > 3. Fat-binding poly(diethanolaminopropyl)acrylamide. Holmes-Farley,
    : > : Stephen Randall.
    : > : > (Geltex Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (2003), 32 pp. WO
    : > : 0302130.
    : > : >
    : > : > 4. Method for reducing copper levels and treating copper toxicosis.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, Stephen
    : > : > Randall. (Geltex Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (2002),
    : 45
    : > : pp. WO
    : > : > 0285383.
    : > : >
    : > : > 5. Method for treating gout and binding uric acid. Holmes-Farley,
    : Stephen
    : > : Randall; Burke,
    : > : > Steven K. WO 0285381 10/31/2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 6. Method for treating gout and reducing serum uric acid.
    : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : Stephen Randall;
    : > : > Burke, Steven K WO 0285380 10/31/2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 7. Amine condensation polymer bile acid sequestrants. Huval, C. C.;
    : > : Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    : > : > Whitesides, G. M. WO 1999-US30469; 7/6/2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 8. Continuous crosslinking of polymer gels. Mandeville, W. H., III and
    : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : > : > R.;
    : > : > WO 1999-US5662; 9/23/1999.
    : > : >
    : > : > 9. Amine-containing copolymers as bile acid sequestrants.
    : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : S. R.; Petersen,
    : > : > J. S.;
    : > : > WO 9933452; 7/8/1999.
    : > : >
    : > : > 10. Polydiallylamine-based phosphate binders. Mandeville, W. H., III
    : and
    : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : > : > R.;
    : > : > WO 9922743; 5/14/1999.
    : > : >
    : > : > 11. Polyallylamine polymers for removing bile salts and treating
    : > : hypercholesterolemia, and
    : > : > polymer preparation. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W. H., III;
    : Burke,
    : > : S. K.; Goldberg,
    : > : > D. I.; WO 9857652; 12/23/98.
    : > : >
    : > : > 12. Phosphate-bidning polymers combined with a calcium supplement for
    : oral
    : > : administration.
    : > : > Goldberg, D. I.; Burke, S. K.; Mandeville, W. H., III; Holmes-Farley,
    : S.
    : > : R.; WO 9842355;
    : > : > 10/1/98.
    : > : >
    : > : > 13. Hydrophobic heteroatom-containing sequestrant for cholesterol
    : > : depletion. Mandeville,
    : > : > W.
    : > : > H., III; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; WO 9639449; 12/12/96.
    : > : >
    : > : > 14. Process for adjusting ion concentration in a patient and
    : compositions
    : > : therefor.
    : > : > Mandeville,
    : > : > W. H., III; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; WO 9427619; 12/8/94.
    : > : >
    : > : > 15. Vacuum-deposited silver on polycarbonate with a chromium
    : interlayer
    : > : for improved
    : > : > metal-
    : > : > substrate adhesion. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Ger. Offen. 4322512;
    : 1/20/94.
    : > : >
    : > : > 16. Process for increased metal-substrate bond strength in metalized
    : > : plastics.
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S.
    : > : > R.; Ger. Offen. 4322516; 7/6/93.
    : > : >
    : > : > 17. Electrorheological fluids and preparation of particles useful in
    : the
    : > : fluids.
    : > : > Troughton,
    : > : > Barritt E., Jr.; Duclos, Theodore G.; Thuer, Anna Marie; Carlson, J.
    : > : David; Bares, Joseph
    : > : > E.;
    : > : > Yanyo, Lynn C.; Farley, Stephen Randall Holmes; Acker, Debra Nell. EP
    : > : 394049;
    : > : > 10/24/1990.
    : > : >
    : > : > JOURNAL PUBLICATIONS
    : > : >
    : > : > 1. Bile acid binding to sevelamer HCl. Braunlin, William; Zhorov,
    : Eugene;
    : > : Guo, Amy;
    : > : > Apruzzese, William; Xu, Qiuwei; Hook, Patrick; Smisek, David L.;
    : > : Mandeville, W. Harry;
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. Randall. Kidney International (2002), 62(2),
    : 611-619.
    : > : >
    : > : > 2. Amine functionalized polyethers as bile acid sequestrants:
    : synthesis
    : > : and biological
    : > : > evaluation. Huval, Chad C.; Bailey, Matthew J.; Holmes-Farley, S.
    : Randall;
    : > : Mandeville, W.
    : > : > Harry; Miller-Gilmore, Karen; Sacchiero, Robert J.; Dhal, Pradeep K.
    : > : Journal of
    : > : > Macromolecular Science, Pure and Applied Chemistry (2001), A38(12),
    : > : 1559-1574.
    : > : >
    : > : > 3. Novel Cholesterol Lowering Polymeric Drugs Obtained by Molecular
    : > : Imprinting. Huval,
    : > : > Chad C.; Bailey, Mathew J.; Braunlin, William H.; Holmes-Farley, S.
    : > : Randall; Mandeville,
    : > : > W.
    : > : > Harry; Petersen, John S.; Polomoscanik, Steven C.; Sacchiro, Robert
    : J.;
    : > : Chen, Xi; Dhal,
    : > : > Pradeep K. Macromolecules (2001), 34(6), 1548-1550.
    : > : >
    : > : > 4. Synthetic polymers for the binding of fat in the intestinal tract.
    : > : Jozefiak, Thomas H.;
    : > : > Mandeville, W. Harry; Holmes-Farley, S. Randy; Arbeeny, Cynthia;
    : Huval,
    : > : Chad C.;
    : > : > Sacchiero, Robert; Concagh, Danny; Yang, Kanwen; Maloney, Cynthia.
    : > : Abstracts of
    : > : > Papers, 222nd ACS National Meeting, Chicago, IL, United States, August
    : > : 26-30, 2001
    : > : > (2001), POLY-047 and Polymer Preprints (American Chemical Society,
    : > : Division of
    : > : > Polymer Chemistry) (2001), 42(2), 98.
    : > : >
    : > : > 5. Colesevelam hydrochloride: Synthesis and testing of a novel polymer
    : gel
    : > : pharmaceutical.
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R; Mandeville, W. H.; Miller, K. L.; Petersen, J.;
    : Ward,
    : > : J.; Sacchiero,
    : > : > B.;
    : > : > Maloney, C.; Brochu, S.; Rosenbaum, D.; Goldberg, D.; Norton, K. A.;
    : Chen,
    : > : X.; Mazzeo, J.
    : > : > R.. Polym. Preprints (2000), 41(1), 735-736.
    : > : >
    : > : > 6. In vitro comparison of bile acid binding to colesevelam HCl and
    : other
    : > : bile acid
    : > : > sequestrants.
    : > : > Braunliin, W.; Zhorov, E.; Smisek, D.; Guo, A.; Appruzese, W.; Xu, Q.;
    : > : Hook, P.; Holmes-
    : > : > Farley, S. R; Mandeville, H. Polym. Preprints (2000), 41(1), 708-709.
    : > : >
    : > : > 7. Novel polymeric pharmaceuticals: From startup to market.
    : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : S. R; Polym.
    : > : > Mater. Sci. Eng (1999), 80, 246-247.
    : > : >
    : > : > 8. Design and characterization of of Sevelamer Hydrochloride: a novel
    : > : phosphate-binding
    : > : > pharmaceutical. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W. H., III; Ward,
    : J.;
    : > : Miller, K. L.;
    : > : > Polym. Mater. Sci. Eng (1998), 79, 280-281 and also in J. M. S.- Pure
    : and
    : > : Appl. Chem.,
    : > : > A36(7&8), p. 1085 (1999).
    : > : >
    : > : > 9. Three generations of bile acid sequestrants. Mandeville, W. H.,
    : III;
    : > : Braunlin, W.;
    : > : > Dhal, P.;
    : > : > Guo, A.; Huval, C.; Miller, K. L.; Petersen, J.; Polomascanik, S.;
    : > : Rosenbaum, D.;
    : > : > Sacchiero,
    : > : > R.; Ward, J.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mat. Res. Soc. Symp. Proc. (1999),
    : > : 550, 3-15.
    : > : >
    : > : > 10. Effect of RenaGel, a non-absorbable, crosslinked, polymeric
    : phosphate
    : > : binder, on
    : > : > urinary
    : > : > phosphorous excretion in rats. Rosenbaum, D. P.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : > : > III; Pitruzzello, M. .; Goldberg, D. I..; Nephrol., Dial., Transplant.
    : > : (1997), 12(5)
    : > : > 961-964.
    : > : >
    : > : > 11. Thin anisotropic coatings based on sol-gel technology.
    : Holmes-Farley,
    : > : S. R.; Yanyo, L.
    : > : > C;
    : > : > Mater. Res. Soc. Symp. Proc. (1990), 180 (Better Ceram. Chem. 4),
    : 439-444.
    : > : >
    : > : > 12. The mechanism of cure initiation of a surface activated adhesive.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : > : > R.;
    : > : > Minichelli, J. L.; J. Adhes. Sci. Technol. (1991), 5(5), 409-420.
    : > : >
    : > : > 13. Adhesion promotion and corrosion prevention using thin anisotropic
    : > : coatings. Holmes-
    : > : > Farley, S. R.; Yanyo, L. C.; J. Adhes. Sci. Technol. (1991), 5(2),
    : > : 131-151.
    : > : >
    : > : > 14. Wetting of functionalized polyethylene having ionizable organic
    : acids
    : > : and bases at the
    : > : > polymer-water interface: relations between functional group polarity,
    : > : extent of
    : > : > ionization,
    : > : > and contact angle with water. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Bain, C. D.;
    : > : Whitesides, G. M.;
    : > : > Langmuir
    : > : > (1988), 4(4), 921-937.
    : > : >
    : > : > 15. Binding of phenols to aluminum oxide surfaces. 1. Phenols with a
    : > : single hydroxy group.
    : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Langmuir (1988), 4(3), 766-774.
    : > : >
    : > : > 16. Reconstruction of the interface of oxidatively functionalized
    : > : polyethylene (PE-CO2H)
    : > : > and
    : > : > derivatives on heating. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Reamey, R. H.; Nuzzo,
    : R.;
    : > : McCarthy, T. J.;
    : > : > Whitesides, G. M.; Langmuir (1987), 3(5), 799-815. See also Report
    : (1987),
    : > : AD-
    : > : > A179590/5/GAR, Gov. Rep. Announce. Index (U. S.) 1987, 87(15).
    : > : >
    : > : > 17. Surface-modified polyethylene film: the relationship between
    : surface
    : > : chemistry and
    : > : > physical
    : > : > properties. Holmes-Farley, S. R; Diss. Abstr. Int. B 1987, 47(11),
    : 4537.
    : > : >
    : > : > 18. Reactivity of carboxylic acid and ester groups in the
    : functionalized
    : > : interfacial
    : > : > region of
    : > : > "polyethylene carboxylic acid" (PE-CO2H) and its derivatives:
    : > : differentiation of the
    : > : > functional groups into shallow and deep subsets based on a comparison
    : of
    : > : contact angle and
    : > : > ATR-IR measurements. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Whitesides, G. M.; Langmuir
    : > : (1987), 3(1), 62-
    : > : > 76.
    : > : >
    : > : > 19. Fluorescence properties of dansyl groups covalently bonded tot he
    : > : surface of
    : > : > oxidatively
    : > : > functionalized low-density polyethylene film. Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    : > : Whitesides, G. M.;
    : > : > Langmuir (1986), 2(3), 266-281. See also Report (1985), TR-85-2;
    : > : AD-A162435/2/GAR,
    : > : > Gov. Rep. Announce. Index (U. S.) 1986, 86(7).
    : > : >
    : > : > 20. Acid-base behavior of carboxylic acid groups covalently attached
    : at
    : > : the surface of
    : > : > polyethylene: The usefulness of contact angle in following the
    : ionization
    : > : of surface
    : > : > functionality. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Reamey, R. H.; McCarthy, T. J.;
    : > : Deutch, J.;
    : > : > Whitesides,
    : > : > G. M.; Langmuir (1985), 1(6), 725-740.
    : > : >
    : > : > 21. The thermal stability of a surface modified solid organic polymer.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : > : > R.;
    : > : > Whitesides, G. M.; Polym. Mater. Sci. Eng. (1985), 53, 127-131.
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > CORAL REEF AQUARIA CHEMISTRY PUBLICATIONS (ON LINE)
    : > : >
    : > : > 1. The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced
    : > : Aquarist. June 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 2. The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser). Holmes-Farley, R.
    : > : Advanced Aquarist.
    : > : > May
    : > : > 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 3. The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : > : Reefkeeping May
    : > : > 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 4. Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals. Holmes-Farley, R. Reefkeeping
    : > : April 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 5. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part II Effects on Macroalgae Growth.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    : > : > Advanced Aquarist; April 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 6. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part II Effects on Macroalgae Growth.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    : > : > Advanced Aquarist; April 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 7. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced
    : Aquarist;
    : > : March 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 8. How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    : > : > Advanced Aquarist; February 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 9. Silica in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist; January
    : > : 2003.
    : > : >
    : > : > 10. Boron in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist;
    : December
    : > : 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 11. Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : Advanced
    : > : Aquarist; November
    : > : > 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 12. Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : > : Advanced Aquarist;
    : > : > November 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 13. Phosphorus: Algae's Best Friend. Holmes-Farley, R.; Advanced
    : Aquarist,
    : > : September 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 14. Iron in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R.; Advanced Aquarist, August
    : > : 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 15. Calcium and Alkalinity. Holmes-Farley, R.; Reefkeeping.com, April
    : > : 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 16. Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced
    : > : Aquarist; July 2002
    : > : >
    : > : > 17. Solutions to pH Problems. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist;
    : June
    : > : 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 18. The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : Advanced
    : > : Aquarist, May
    : > : > 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 19. The Chemical & Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification in Corals.
    : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    : > : > Advanced Aquarist, April 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 20. Calcium. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist; March 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 21. Alkalinity. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist; February 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 22. Specific Gravity. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist, January
    : 2002.
    : > : >
    : > : > 23. The Complete Nitrogen Cycle. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium Frontiers
    : > : 2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 24. Magnesium: Calcium's little sister. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium
    : > : Frontiers 2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 25. Phosphate..What is it and why should you care. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : > : Aquarium Frontiers
    : > : > 2000.
    : > : > 26. Carbon Dioxide: Friend or Foe . Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium
    : Frontiers
    : > : 2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 27. Using Conductivity To Measure Salinity, R. Aquarium Frontiers
    : 2000.
    : > : >
    : > : > 28. Understanding Seawater. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium Frontiers 1999.
    : > : >
    : > : > 29. Protein Skimming: How it Works. Fishnet Library 1998.
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > Boomer
    : > : >
    : > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    : > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    : > : >
    : > : > Want to See More ?
    : > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
    : > : > www.coralrealm.com
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > :
    : > :
    : >
    : >
    :
    :
    :
     
    Boomer, Feb 12, 2004
    #77
  18. Dinky

    Boomer Guest

    "As it is the ability to neutralizes an acid that is a buffer"

    sorry

    As it is the ability to neutralizes a base that is a buffer

    --
    Boomer

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ?
    Please Join Our Growing Membership
    www.coralrealm.com

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:102nfo0nudti1e8@corp.supernews.com...
    :
    : "I am not sure if you are just messing with me "
    :
    : Yes, messing with you, it is called trolling a troll, to see where the hell you would go
    : and what you would say in regards to last posts. It is called honesty, of which you have
    : none off to say the least,that I can see.You always like to post what suits you and just
    : avoid ref I give. So lets start where you are WRONG and have a great lack of
    understanding
    : of things, to include pointing out all your gross error which you still FAIL to
    : acknowledge and which can be prove in many water chem. ref. .I doubt like hell you are a
    : chemist at all.You seem to want to con people into thinkin' you are. But then again, I
    : have seen chemists like you before, they are not familiar with the, but they ASK to have
    : it explained and ask for REF.YOU just shoot from the hip. WHAT GETS YOU IN TROUBLE. You
    : remind me of snoot-noise kid that come here and other NG's and forums...that think they
    : know, buy hey, maybe I'm wrong :)
    :
    :
    :
    : 1). Acidity
    :
    : "***Benjamin,Water Chemistry (2002, pages 262-263).***
    :
    : ***Acidity A concept that is exactly analogous to alkalinity but measures the base
    : neutralizing
    : capacity (BNC) of a solution is Acidity. The quantitative represents the concentration
    of
    : OH- ions that must be added to titrate the solution to a pH near 10.5***
    :
    : So that means that not only in Benjamin wrong but, so are Stumm & Morgan, Millero,
    Pilosn,
    : Riley & Chester, Pankow, Snoeyink & Jenkins, just to name a few. As I said, you have
    your
    : acidity and Acidy mixed up. Acidity as defined above is covered in most water chemistry
    : books, written by chemists, who's field of expertise is water chemistry. You can even
    buy
    : Acidity test kits from, HACH, LaMotte, etc..
    :
    : You mean you didn't read this or are you just avoiding it .The same definition can be
    : found in almost any std water chemistry book.
    :
    : I have run into few chemists, that are NOT familiar with the above. Some water reports
    : require the above Acidity measuring. The issue with you is you do not understand WATER
    : CHEMISTRY. Everything you have posted can be found a general chemistry book
    :
    :
    :
    :
    : 2) Alk and BC
    :
    : From the link
    :
    : Alkalinity
    : ***Acid neutralizing or buffering capacity of water; a measure of the ability of water
    to
    : resist changes in pH caused by the addition of acids or bases ***
    :
    : This is a Buffering Capacity definition not Alk
    :
    : Humm, since when does Alk have anything to do in regards to the addition of BASE. As I
    : pointed out in the first post the term is often miss used. Even in YOUR own posts you
    say
    : it is based on a acid addition, no mention of **base or acid** addition by you. Are you
    : getting confused or what. Or is more you are trying to confuse everyone you are right.
    The
    : above is a definition for Buffer Capacity NOT Alk
    :
    : From Drew, Geochemistry of Natural Waters
    :
    : "alkalinity, which is formally defined as the equivalent sum of bases that are
    titratable
    : with strong acid(Stumm & Morgan, 1966; Aquatic Chemistry). If the pH of the solution is
    : progressively lowered by the addition of a strong acid (HCL), all the anions on the
    right
    : will be converted to uncharged species (H2CO3,B(OH)3, H4SiO4, H2S,organic acids, H20)"
    :
    : This follows almost all description of Alk, that it is acid neutralizing reaction and
    has
    : nothing to do with base neutralizing, which is Acidity (BNC) .I defined these before you
    : had no comment
    :
    :
    : Even the links that give the Buffering Capacity definition is wrong, as is the UIPAC on
    : Alkalinity. Alkalinity has nothing to do with the addition of bases only acids. When you
    : use the words "base and acid" it becomes BC
    :
    : Even YOU MUST disagree with these definitions, from YOUR own post
    :
    : Think of alkalinity as 'buffering capacity'. Or the ability of a solution
    : ***to resist a drop in pH due to the addition of acid***
    :
    : Where the flip is the base addition forget it ?
    :
    : From Butler; Carbon Dioxide Equilibrium and Their Applications (professor emeritus
    : Harvard University) an expert on the subject.
    :
    : Buffering Index (Buffering Capacity, Buffer Intensity).
    :
    : ***This concept was first developed for mixtures of approximately equal proportions of
    : conjugate acid and base (i.e., 0.05 M NaHCO3 and .050 M Na2CO3. Such buffer solutions
    : strongly resist changes in pH when acids or bases are added and are useful as pH
    : standards. The Buffer Index tells how great the resistance to pH changes will be.**
    :
    : also from Butler
    :
    : Alkalinity = {HCO3-] + 2[CO3] +[OH] - [H+]
    :
    : Acidity = [Cl-] - Na+] = [H+] - HCO3 - 2[CO3] - [OH-]
    :
    : Acidity is in fact just the negative of Alkalinity ***
    :
    : http://www.lagoonsonline.com/acid.htm
    :
    : http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/REDLINE_PAGES/D1067.htm?E+mystore
    :
    : It sure is funny how all of the chemist that write water chemistry textbooks never say
    Alk
    : is the Buffering Capacity of a solution. They are always treated and defined separately.
    :
    : If you or others choose to treat Alk and BC as the same, well, just have at it. As I
    said
    : in first post I know what you mean.
    :
    : "No need to cite web pages that describe what I know and what I wrote
    : in this discussion"
    :
    : No you don't know, who are you trying to convince any way, me, the guys here and/or all
    : the water chemists in this world. As I said before go get a dam WATER CHEMISTRY book or
    : shut the hell up.You keep trying to define things from a general chemistry book WE ARE
    IN
    : THE WORLD OF WATER CHEMISTRY HERE. Get you definitions straight.
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    : 3). pKa's and what you don't know or seem to be confused on
    :
    : "Therefore, it has two pKa's
    : (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35. The
    : pH of seawater varies from 7.6 to 8.4. Hmmm. That pH I calculated is
    : right in there. Is that magic? :)"
    :
    : Here it is agin that is twice at least
    :
    : "The pKa of CO3-2 is 10.3. Thus, at a pH of 8.3 (seawater for this example)
    : you would have a 1 : 100 ratio of CO3-2 and HCO3-2. The equilibrium will
    : be shifted to HCO3-2 by a ratio of 1:100.
    :
    : Oh wait , there is a third time LOL
    :
    : "At the pH of seawater, the buffering capacity of carbonate is at it's
    : weakest. It's strongest buffering is at a pH of 6.4 and 10.3."
    :
    :
    : Lets just dunk you on this one. I am taking note you refuse to reply to YOUR errors
    :
    : So you calculated the pH of seawater with freshwater pKa's, now that is a good trick.
    From
    : a number of seawater chemistry books the seawater pKa's are 6 & 9.1, so according to
    you,
    : seemingly not understanding your favorite Henderson-Hasselbach equation;
    :
    : 2 pH = (6 + 9.1) /2 pH = 7.55
    :
    : I have never seen seawater with a pH of 7.55. There is no ocean with that pH. Humm how
    : come your equation is not working for you today.?
    :
    :
    : "That pH I calculated is
    : right in there. Is that magic? :)"
    :
    : I roll on the floor when I see this = 8.35
    :
    : Hum , just a brain far so excuse me for thinkin
    :
    : (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35
    :
    : Ok, we know those are FW pKa's. So, hummmmmm how come FW isn't at a pH of 8.35 there
    pal
    : ? That 8.35 is what you are telling people the pH should be, but their meter says 6.4.
    : This how people will READ this.
    :
    :
    :
    :
    : 4.) More on Buffering Capacity
    :
    : "Do you recognize [HCO3-1] and [CO3-2] from another equation ? Yes, your
    : alkalinity equation."'
    :
    :
    : Yup, I see that and in this case the HCO3 is the acid and the CO3 is the base CORRECT.
    In
    : Alk you are only dealing with bases and how they react to an acid. Acidity deals acids
    and
    : how they recact to bases "Acidity, A concept that is exactly analogous to alkalinity but
    : measures the base neutralizing
    : capacity (BNC) of a solution is Acidity "Alk is the ANC Acid neutralizing capacity
    :
    : "Don't the components of a buffer account for the buffering capacity? "
    :
    : Yes, they do but so do the acids which work as buffers. NaHCO3 is a buffer and can act
    as
    : an acid or base
    :
    : *** Buffering Capacity.**
    : The power of a substance in solution to absorb acid or alkali without change in pH; this
    : is highest at a pH value equal to the pKa value of the acid of the buffer pair.***
    :
    : ***Akalinity***
    : Measure of the power of a solution to neutralise hydrogen ions (H+), usually expressed
    as
    : the equivalent concentration (mg/L) of calcium carbonate (CaCO3).
    :
    :
    : If one wants to call Alk Buffering capacity then one sure as a hell can call Acidty
    : Buffering Capacity also. As it is the ability to neutralizes an acid that is a
    buffer.You
    : have a pH of 7 and you add a buffer to lower it to a pH of 4, you are buffering the
    water,
    : that buffer is a acid.
    :
    : 5) CO2
    :
    : You are really confuse so it seems :) You realllllllly indicate that CO2 is affected by
    : the Alk or vise-versa
    :
    : "Yes, the pH will drop with the addition of CO2. Remove CO2 will cause the
    : pH to rise? How do you remove CO2? Once it is in solution it forms
    : carbonic acid and neutralizes some of your 'buffer'."
    :
    : "With the exception of CO2?"
    :
    : No it doesn't, CO2 has ZERO effect on Alk (Pankow, Aquatic Chemistry
    : Concepts)....PERIOD.You seem to think a that at least in two of your post that CO2 is
    : affected by the Alk or vise-versa. Please go back to school or seek professor
    :
    : "Why in one case does CO2 from air lower pH and in the other case it raises
    : it? Doesn't make sense."
    :
    : That is because you don't understand CO2 period. By the way I saved this, wanted to see
    : if you would bite on the post I gave. Not bite at first, so time to reel you in, as you
    : did bite in another post..
    :
    : Lets make some sense of it for you, being that you have a pH.D in chemistry, so you say
    ..
    :
    : CO2 is naturally generated in a aquatic systems, it is capable of raise to various
    levels
    : depending on a number of circumstances .It can be measure (except in seawater) or
    : calculated using Buch/Park Equations (what we use for seawater. In sort if you know the
    pH
    : and Alk you can calculate the CO2). If you aerate a system or a sample of water, even if
    : the pH has only dropped a couple of tenths, due to an increase in CO2, the CO2 will
    leave
    : solution to the atmosphere.This will raise the pH. On the other hand if theCO2 level is
    : more of the norm and you have hikgh room air, such as in the winter, the partial
    pressure
    : of the CO2 in air will be much higher than that in water, in which case the CO2 will
    enter
    : the water and lower the pH. That is without an airstone. Adding an airstone will make it
    : even worse,as you are now forcefully driving the CO2 into solution even quicker. These
    : test /experiments have been proven many times, it is not that may work could work they
    do
    : work.Yet you want to disagree and in another post say you haven't tried it,.Seems to me
    : that based on what you say it can't work So, in short you don't know what the hell you
    are
    : taking about. Go get a glass of seawater with a pH of about 8.3 and lower it to about
    : 8.0.-81 with CO2, then aerated it and watch the pH go the HELL-BACK- UP ( that is if you
    : don't have a high room air CO2 problem.). This little test has been done thousands of
    : times in this hobby, with test kits, pH meters and even graphic printers.
    :
    : "This is where Boomer and I
    : disagree. I say you would have to lower the pH very low in order to
    : effectively remove CO2 by purging."
    :
    : You are 100 % wrong. Please come to our Chem forum and try and run that by Randy, don't
    : take my word on it. I already know what he will say.
    :
    : "Boomer didnt convince me it
    : works at the pH of an aquarium, but I never tried it and I'm not sure of
    : this. "
    :
    : Well then come too our chem. forum and tell Randy he doesn't know what he is talking
    about
    : LOL. It is a realllllllllly easy test, having a Ph.D in chemistry, it should be easy for
    : you to run the experiment LOL There are grade school kids that run the test and know
    what
    : happens and that I'm correct.
    :
    :
    : "The equilibrium is a FUNCTION
    : of pH."
    :
    : It is also a function of Alk or don't you know that. At a pH of 8.3, Alk 2.25, the CO2
    is
    : about .45 meq / l, in seawater, @25C and 35 ppt. If you raise the Alk to about .4 meq/ l
    : or so the CO2 will be around .99 mg / l CO2, When dealing with tanksCO2 is not always in
    : equilibrium with ambient air.
    :
    :
    : ". But I wouldn't degas a solution of a
    : specific gas (CO2) with a gas (this case he was using air) that contains the
    : same gas I am trying to purge."
    :
    : Why not ? We have a guy right now that is running tests on purging ambient air with a
    : solution to remove CO2 gas from the air, before it enters the tank per/Randy's
    suggestion.
    : The same guy is doing some of my test using a Clinoptilolite, a Zeolite mineral, that
    has
    : an affinity for CO2.This will be a dry CO2 scrubber
    :
    :
    : Sorry Soutman but you sure as hell don't seem to know much about aquatic chemistry. You
    : seem to be guessing at everything.
    :
    : By the way have you read any of Randy's technical articles on water chemistry, been
    saving
    : these for last. There are a few on pH, Alk, CO2 .Here is a list
    :
    : Try and answer them 1-5 and lets see where we get THIS TIME :) or maybe we should just
    : drop it. I could care less at this point.
    :
    : THE END
    :
    :
    : ARTICLES
    :
    : The first two posts in this thread are lists of some of my articles that relate to reef
    : tank chemistry. In the next few posts are some of the articles published by Craig
    Bingman
    : and others on reef chemistry issues.
    :
    : The first two posts in this thread are lists of some of my articles that relate to reef
    : tank chemistry. In the next few posts are some of the articles published by Craig
    Bingman
    : and others on reef chemistry issues.
    :
    : Solving Common Problems
    :
    : Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
    :
    : Solutions to pH Problems
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2002/chem.htm
    :
    : How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
    :
    : Phosphate Issues
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2002/chem.htm
    :
    : Nitrate Issues
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...st2003/chem.htm
    :
    :
    :
    : Calcium and Alkalinity
    :
    : Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
    :
    : How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
    :
    : Calcium and Alkalinity Balance Issues
    : http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm
    :
    : Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement (Aragamight; Liquid Reactor)
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ly2002/chem.htm
    :
    : The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH.
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm
    :
    : The Chemical & Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification in Corals
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm
    :
    : Calcium
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2002/chem.htm
    :
    : Alkalinity
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...2/chemistry.htm
    :
    :
    : Iron
    :
    : First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm
    :
    : Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
    :
    : Iodine
    :
    : Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm
    :
    : Iodine in Reef Tanks 2: Effects on Macroalgae Growth
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...il2003/chem.htm
    :
    :
    : Magnesium and Strontium
    :
    : Strontium
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/chem.htm
    :
    : Magnesium
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm
    :
    : Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm
    :
    :
    : Limewater (kalkwasser)
    :
    : The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser)
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm
    :
    : The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air
    : http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm
    :
    : How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
    :
    : Metals in Aquaria
    :
    : Aluminum and aluminum-based phosphate binders
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ly2003/chem.htm
    :
    : Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals
    : http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm
    :
    : Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm
    : First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm
    :
    : Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
    :
    :
    : Test Kit Reviews
    :
    : The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2003/chem.htm
    :
    : The Salifert Boron Test Kit
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2003/chem.htm
    :
    : Boron and Borate (and pH buffering)
    :
    : Boron in a Reef Tank (and its effect on pH buffering)
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2002/chem.htm
    :
    : The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2003/chem.htm
    :
    : The Salifert Boron Test Kit
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2003/chem.htm
    :
    :
    :
    : Others
    :
    : Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm
    :
    : ORP
    : http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm
    :
    : Chloramine
    : http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm
    :
    : Silica in a Reef Tank
    : http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm
    :
    : Specific Gravity (and temperature correction of hydrometers)
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...2/chemistry.htm
    :
    :
    : The Complete Nitrogen Cycle
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...a&RecordNo=3090
    :
    : Magnesium (older article with fonts screwed up)
    : http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=
    :
    : Phosphate (older article now reproduced in a poor fashion)
    : http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=
    :
    : Carbon Dioxide
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...a&RecordNo=2074
    :
    : Using Conductivity to Measure Salinity
    : http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=
    :
    : Understanding Seawater
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp
    :
    : Protein Skimming: How It Works
    : http://home.mweb.co.za/jv/jv79/reef/skimmers2.html
    :
    :
    :
    : Articles by Craig Bingman:
    :
    : Carbon Dioxide tests
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...n=&RecordNo=279
    :
    : Limewater, Acetic Acid and Sand Clumping
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...n=&RecordNo=181
    :
    : Calcium and Alkalinity
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Calculation of Calcium Carbonate Saturation States in Reef Aquaria
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    :
    : Calcification Rates in Several Tropical Coral Reef Aquaria
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Limits To Limewater...Revisited
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Expanding the Limits of Limewater: Adding Organic Carbon Sources (vinegar)
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    :
    : Magnesium Ion Precipitation in Reef Aquaria: A Tempest in a Teapot
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Magnesium - Part I
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Magnesium - Part II
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : A Homemade Magnesium Supplement
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions on Reef
    Systems
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride
    : /Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    :
    : More articles by Craig Bingman:
    :
    : The Halogens - Part I: Bromine in Seawater and Aquaria
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : The Halogens - Part II: Fluoride
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Fluoride Depletion In Four Reef Aquariums
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : The Halogens - Part III: Iodine
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Measuring Halides
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : How Test Kits Work
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Borax pH Calibration
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : A pH Detective Story
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : How to Mix a Batch of Synthetic Seawater in Under Five Minutes
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : Increasing Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide: Likely Effects on Coral Reefs
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    : SILICON - FOE OR FRIEND?
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp
    :
    : The Composition Of Several Synthetic Seawater Mixes
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp
    :
    : Calcium Carbonate for CaCO3/CO2 Reactors: More Than Meets the Eye
    : http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    :
    :
    :
    : Andy's calcium calculator
    : http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/cacalc.htm
    :
    : Greg Hillers analysis of limestone media for CaCO3/CO2 reactors
    : http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=
    :
    : Calcium Reactor Substrate -- Phosphate Levels
    : by Greg Hiller
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...l2003/short.htm
    :
    :
    : Indoor CO2 Problems
    : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...r2002/short.htm
    :
    : Simon Huntington's CaCO3/CO2 reactor article
    :
    : http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm
    :
    : Ron Shimek's Tank Water Analysis Article
    : http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm
    :
    :
    :
    :
    : Home made salinity standards thread:
    :
    : http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...?threadid=65509
    :
    : Reef Chemicals Calculator
    : http://www.kademani.com/reefchem.htm
    :
    :
    :
    : Boomer
    :
    : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    :
    : WCWing@Chartermi.Net
    : Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    : Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
    :
    : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    :
    :
    : --
    : Boomer
    :
    : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    :
    : Want to See More ?
    : Please Join Our Growing Membership
    : www.coralrealm.com
    :
    : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    : "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:aGuWb.148227$U%5.676753@attbi_s03...
    : : Boomer,
    : :
    : : I am not sure if you are just messing with me or if you are truly confused.
    : : I hope the latter. Please read from Top to Bottom.
    : :
    : :
    : : From YOUR first link:
    : :
    : : http://www.waterontheweb.org/resources/glossary.html
    : :
    : : Acidity:
    : : A measure of how acid a solution may be. A solution with a pH of less than
    : : 7.0 is considered acidic. Solutions with a pH of less than 4.5 contain
    : : mineral acidity (due to strong inorganic acids), while a solution having a
    : : pH greater than 8.3 contains no acidity.
    : :
    : : Yes,
    : :
    : : Good definition (for the most part). pH <7 is indeed acidic. pH > 7 is
    : : basic. Your web page had a definition for acidity, but not basicity.
    : : Strange. That's like defining GOOD and not defining BAD.
    : :
    : : Here is the IUPAC (International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry)
    : : definition of acidity:
    : :
    : : http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/index.html
    : :
    : : acidity
    : :
    : : (1) Of a compound:
    : :
    : : For Brønsted acids it means the tendency of a compound to act as a hydron
    : : donor. It can be quantitatively expressed by the acid dissociation constant
    : : of the compound in water or some other specified medium. For Lewis acids it
    : : relates to the association constants of Lewis adducts and -adducts.
    : :
    : : (2) Of a medium:
    : :
    : : The use of the term is mainly restricted to a medium containing Brønsted
    : : acids, where it means the tendency of the medium to hydronate a specific
    : : reference base
    : :
    : : basicity
    : :
    : : For Brønsted bases it means the tendency of a compound to act as hydron
    : : (proton) acceptor. The basicity of a chemical species is normally expressed
    : : by the acidity of the conjugate acid (see conjugate acid-base pair). For
    : : Lewis bases it relates to the association constants of Lewis adducts
    : : and -adducts
    : :
    : :
    : :
    : : Another definition from the same web page YOU cited: (this is the same web
    : : page you cited above)
    : :
    : : Alkalinity:
    : : Acid neutralizing or buffering capacity of water; a measure of the ability
    : : of water to resist changes in pH caused by the addition of acids or bases
    : : and therefore, the main indicator of susceptibility to acid rain; in natural
    : : waters it is due primarily to the presence of bicarbonates, carbonates and
    : : to a much lesser extent occasionally borates, silicates and phosphates. It
    : : is expressed in units of milligrams per liter (mg/l) of CaCO3 (calcium
    : : carbonate) or as microequivalents per liter (ueq/l) where 20 ueq/l = 1 mg/l
    : : of CaCO3. A solution having a pH below about 5 contains no alkalinity.
    : :
    : : Your own post defines alkalinity as BUFFERING CAPACITY OF WATER and says
    : : that alkalinity is the measure of ...(description of a buffer)
    : :
    : : A BUFFER IS : a measure of the ability of water to resist changes in pH
    : : caused by the addition of acids or bases (from definition below)
    : :
    : :
    : : I said:
    : : ***alkalinity is a measurement of 'buffering capacity'***
    : :
    : : You said:
    : : ***Alkalinity is not a measurement of BC
    : :
    : : WHY WOULD YOU POST A LINK THAT CONTRADICTS WHAT YOU SAID?? This is not
    : : logical.
    : :
    : : (THIS FROM THE SAME WEB PAGE YOU CITED):
    : :
    : : Buffer:
    : : A substance which tends to keep pH levels fairly constant when acids or
    : : bases are added.
    : :
    : : THIS IS FROM THE DEFINITION OF ALKALINITY FROM SAME WEB PAGE.
    : :
    : : a measure of the ability of water to resist changes in pH caused by the
    : : addition of acids or bases
    : :
    : : SO DON'T TELL ME THIS SENTENCE DOESN'T DESCRIBE THE ACTIONS OF A BUFFER.
    : :
    : :
    : : I went to all four links. None contradict what I have said. But the first
    : : one you cited contradicts YOU!
    : :
    : : I know what a buffer is. I know what acidity means. I know what alkalinity
    : : means. No need to cite web pages that describe what I know and what I wrote
    : : in this discussion. Show me one that says alkalinity is not a measure of
    : : buffering capacity from a credible source.
    : :
    : :
    : :
    : :
    : :
    : :
    : : "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    : : news:102kn4e6f2vvb1@corp.supernews.com...
    : : > Alkalinity a measure of the amount of anions of weak acid in water and of
    : : the cations
    : : > balanced against them
    : : > Take note it says ***acid***
    : : >
    : : > Buffering capacity the ability of a solution to resist or dampen changes
    : : in pH upon the
    : : > addition of acids or bases.
    : : > Take note its says ***the addition of acids or bases***
    : : >
    : : > One more
    : : >
    : : > http://www.waterontheweb.org/resources/glossary.html
    : : >
    : : > We could go on like this all day, so what is the point ?
    : : >
    : : > You will LOVE this one
    : : > http://www.kyantec.com/Tips/phbuffering.htm
    : : >
    : : > Don't you just lovbe PDF's
    : : > http://www.inform.umd.edu/manurenet/reprints/98.1702.pdf
    : : >
    : : > Don't fall out of your chair
    : : > http://www.chemforlife.org/teacher/topics/chemistry_in_an_aquarium.htm
    : : >
    : : >
    : : >
    : : >
    : : > --
    : : > Boomer
    : : >
    : : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    : : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    : : >
    : : > Want to See More ?
    : : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
    : : > www.coralrealm.com
    : : >
    : : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    : : > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:XB7Wb.19339$QA2.62332@attbi_s52...
    : : > : Man here is another, google is a wonderful thing. I'm not filtering any
    : : > : out, just posting what I find by GOOGLING for you.
    : : > :
    : : > : http://www.globe.gov/hq/trr_suppl/hydro/HY_SUP_ALK_INTRO_NOTES.HTML
    : : > :
    : : > :
    : : > : Wow, a gov link. Even the government is wrong, this must be a
    : : conspiracy
    : : > : against Boomer.
    : : > :
    : : > :
    : : > :
    : : > :
    : : > : "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    : : > : news:102ht0bjplpo059@corp.supernews.com...
    : : > : > Now I am getting bored
    : : > : >
    : : > : > "Don't the components of a buffer account for the buffering capacity?
    : : > : Yes."
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Yes, agreed but you seem to fail what I'm saying. Buffering Capacity
    : : and
    : : > : Alkalinity are
    : : > : > not the same, that has always been the issue. I gave the equation does
    : : > : that look like an
    : : > : > Alkalinity equation or how Alk is determined. I see you had now
    : : comments
    : : > : on it what's
    : : > : > wrong, why no comments on the equations I gave. Don't understand them
    : : or
    : : > : what ? Again this
    : : > : > is the equation for Buffering Capacity, also called Buffer Index or
    : : Buffer
    : : > : Intensity. It
    : : > : > is defined in most water chemistry and chemical oceanography text
    : : books.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > B (Buffering Capacity) = dCb / dpH = 2.303 ( Kw/[H30+] + [H30+] +
    : : CKa
    : : > : [H3O+] / (Ka =
    : : > : > H3O+])² )
    : : > : >
    : : > : > This is not Alkalinity now is it ?
    : : > : >
    : : > : > "I know how to do a titration, In fact I have done several. How many
    : : have
    : : > : > you actually done? I don't mean by counting drops, I mean with a
    : : buret?"
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Well good for you, I use a Digital Titrator
    : : > : >
    : : > : > "Oh, I see,
    : : > : > you think acidity is the opposite of alkalinity. In the world of
    : : > : CHEMISTRY
    : : > : > it's not. Maybe in aquarium newsgroups it is.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Hum no, maybe you should go for a look at HACH's or LaMotte website or
    : : the
    : : > : book I
    : : > : > suggested earlier. Please view a copy.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Standard Methods for the Examination of Water and Wastewater
    : : > : >
    : : > : > This book, over 2000 pages, is the guide for water testing. If you are
    : : > : reporting water
    : : > : > test to the EPA you must use approved std from this text.I t is
    : : prepared
    : : > : and published by
    : : > : > the EPA, American Water Works Association and American Public Health
    : : > : Association. You
    : : > : > mean you don't have one and the issue is water chemistry
    : : > : >
    : : > : > You are confusing Acidity and Acidity as you know little about water
    : : > : chemistry and
    : : > : > procedures and test methods
    : : > : >
    : : > : > From SMEWW, section 2-30, 2310 ACIDITY
    : : > : >
    : : > : > "Acidity of water is its quantative capacity to react with a strong
    : : base
    : : > : to a designated
    : : > : > pH"
    : : > : >
    : : > : > This is how you test for it
    : : > : >
    : : > : > A std alkali titration to methyl orange or phenolphthalein
    : : > : > endpoint.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > BUT YOU SAID THIS IS WRONG. Please tell all the chemist that write
    : : this
    : : > : book, there are
    : : > : > over 100 of them, they are wrong.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Like Buffering Capacity you have your Acidity's mixed up
    : : > : > In water measurement if you have a high Alk you also usually have a
    : : high
    : : > : Acidity.
    : : > : > Normally a high Alk also gives a higher CO2 level. Get a WATER
    : : CHEMISTRY
    : : > : BOOK there pal.
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > "These are all in equilibrium with each other. An initial high pH
    : : (above
    : : > : > 6.4) will shift the equilibrium to the right to form HCO3-1. If the
    : : pH of
    : : > : > the solution is above 10.3 (pKa2) the .........."
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Christ, there you go again with the FW shit. All your numbers are
    : : wrong we
    : : > : are dealing
    : : > : > with SEAWATER
    : : > : >
    : : > : > This means that at a pH of 8.3, the majority of the CO2(aq) is in the
    : : form
    : : > : > of HCO3-1 .
    : : > : >
    : : > : > I have already pointed that out and gave actual values at know
    : : seawater
    : : > : levels, go back
    : : > : > and re-read it you aren't telling me anything here.Of course most is
    : : HCO3
    : : > : see...
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > @ 20C and 34.3 ppt salinity
    : : > : >
    : : > : > CO2 = 0.52 %
    : : > : >
    : : > : > HCO3 = 86.4 %
    : : > : >
    : : > : > CO3 = 13.09 %
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > "In your glass experiment you managed to lower the pH enough to purge
    : : out
    : : > : CO2
    : : > : > by boiling"
    : : > : >
    : : > : > The purpose behind the glass is to show that alk is not affect by CO2
    : : and
    : : > : vise-versa and
    : : > : > how Co2 affects pH.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Now, in a real life seawater aquarium, with a pH of 8.3 and that pH
    : : drops
    : : > : to say 8.1 it is
    : : > : > usually due to excess CO2. If you took a glass of that water and
    : : aerated
    : : > : it you WILL drive
    : : > : > off the CO2 and raise the pH. It has been done a proven a million
    : : times.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > "In order to 'purge' CO2 you would need to lower the
    : : > : > pH to shift the equilibrium to below 6.4"
    : : > : >
    : : > : > The hell you do !!!.Do you know who many times people on this NG to
    : : > : include Dr. Craig
    : : > : > Bingman a chemist and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley have mentioned to take a
    : : > : sample of aquarium
    : : > : > water and aerate it to see if the pH GOES UP AND when they come back
    : : with
    : : > : the test it is
    : : > : > often YES the pH went back up. PROBLEM THERE MISTER PH.D CHEMIST
    : : excess
    : : > : CO2 in the tank
    : : > : > water, increase the circulation for better gas exchange at the
    : : surface,
    : : > : reduce feeding,
    : : > : > and try to improve on better skimming, thus reducing the bio-load and
    : : pH
    : : > : decline due to
    : : > : > CO2.
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > "I hope this helps. "
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Help, how can you when you miss everything. I should be charging you
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Oh, by the way. Your websites, I have about 50 on these issues, I
    : : could
    : : > : post them, not to
    : : > : > mention I have all those water chemistry books, so there is no need to
    : : > : view your sites.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Finally are you afraid to come to our Chemistry Forum, afraid to get
    : : > : slapped by REAL
    : : > : > chemists. I get a charge out of you can't post your ref .I have posted
    : : the
    : : > : same or similar
    : : > : > stuff on his forum and I wasn't pointed out WRONG pal. I have 1500
    : : posts
    : : > : there and am the
    : : > : > biggest contributor to his forum other than himself or maybe Habib
    : : Sheka
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Hum, here are Randy's ref that he posted. He hosts the website
    : : > : >
    : : > : > S. RANDY HOLMES-FARLEY
    : : > : > Arlington, Massachusetts
    : : > : >
    : : > : > EDUCATION
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1982-1986 Harvard University Cambridge, MA
    : : > : > PhD in Chemistry
    : : > : > Research Advisor: George Whitesides
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Investigated the relationship between polymer surface chemistry and
    : : > : physical properties
    : : > : > through controlled surface modification and testing.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1980-1982 Cornell University Ithaca, NY
    : : > : > BA in Chemistry and Biology
    : : > : > Graduated Summa Cum Laude
    : : > : > Distinction in All Subjects
    : : > : > Grade Point: 3.94/4.0
    : : > : > Honors research: isolation and characterization of the subunit of CF1
    : : > : enzyme
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1978-1979 Stanford University Palo Alto, CA
    : : > : > Grade Point: 3.55/4.0
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > EXPERIENCE
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1992- present Genzyme Drug Disvcovery and Development Waltham, MA
    : : > : > (bought out GelTex Pharmaceuticals in 2001)
    : : > : > Vice President, Chemical Research 2001-present
    : : > : > Senior Director, Chemical Research 1999-2001
    : : > : > Director of Chemical Research 1997-1999
    : : > : > Manager of Chemical Research 1995-1997
    : : > : > Group Leader 1994-1995
    : : > : > Senior Research Scientist 1992-1994
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Helped start GelTex as second employee
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Managed various research programs with multi-million dollar budgets
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Supervised research chemists (17+)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Co-inventor of several polymeric pharmaceuticals and pharmaceutical
    : : > : candidates including
    : : > : > Sevelamer Hydrochloride (FDA approved) and Colesevelam Hydrochloride
    : : (FDA
    : : > : approved)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Company Safety Officer for 3 years
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Chemical Hygiene Officer 2000-present
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1990-1992 GTE Corporation Waltham, MA
    : : > : > Senior Member of Technical Staff
    : : > : > Applied research involving polymer interfaces
    : : > : > Metallization of plastics
    : : > : > Polymer/polymer adhesion
    : : > : > Optical coatings
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1986-1990 Lord Corporation Cary, NC
    : : > : > Senior Research Scientist 1988-1990
    : : > : > Research Scientist 1986-1988
    : : > : > Basic and applied research on surface chemical bonding
    : : > : > Developed new adhesive compositions
    : : > : > Developed new sol-gel coatings for corrosion resistance
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > HONORS AND AWARDS
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Industrial Innovations Award by Northeast Region of American Chemical
    : : > : Society (6/2001)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > National Kidney Foundation of Northern California Honoree (5/2001)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > American Chemical Society/Polymer Chemistry Division Industrial
    : : Sponsors
    : : > : > Award (8/2000)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > R&D 100 Award from R&D magazine (1999)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Sherwin Williams Award in applied polymer science (9/85)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > IBM Predoctoral Fellowship in Polymer Science (1984-1985; 1985-1986)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Award for highest GPA in Chemistry Department (6/82)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Summa Cum Laude Honors in Chemistry (6/82)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Phi Lamda Epsilon (6/82)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Phi Beta Kappa (2/82)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Cornell University Dean's List (1981, 1982)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Harvard Book Club Award for highest GPA senior year (1978)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > First Place in western NY ACS high school chemistry exam (1977)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1978-1979
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > __________________
    : : > : > Randy Holmes-Farley
    : : > : > Want to talk chemistry? Try the Reef Chemistry Forum at Reef Central
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Hobby Experience: 8 years with reefs
    : : > : > Current Tanks: 90 gal mixed reef
    : : > : > Interests: Reefkeeping, science, photography
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley on 10/01/2003 at 07:49 PM
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Open this post in a new window | Report this post to a moderator | IP:
    : : > : Logged
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 06/27/2003 02:44 PM
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Randy Holmes-Farley
    : : > : > Chemistry Moderator
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Registered: Apr 2001
    : : > : > Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
    : : > : > Occupation: Chemist (Drug Discovery at Genzyme)
    : : > : > Posts: 15282
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Publications
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > ISSUED UNITED STATES PATENTS
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall;
    : : > : Mandeville, III; W. Harry.
    : : > : > US 6,566,407; 5/20/2003
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 2. Polyether-based bile acid sequestrants. Holmes-Farley, Stephen
    : : Randall;
    : : > : Huval, Chad
    : : > : > Cori.
    : : > : > U.S. 6,517,825; 2/11/2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 3. Method of making phosphate-binding polymers for oral
    : : administration.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : > Stephen R.; Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Whitesides; George M. U.S.
    : : > : 6,509,013; 1/21/2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 4. Combination therapy for treating hypercholesterolemia using a bile
    : : acid
    : : > : sequestrant
    : : > : > polymer
    : : > : > and a cholesterol-lowering agent. Huval, Chad Cori; Holmes-Farley,
    : : Stephen
    : : > : Randall;
    : : > : > Petersen, John S.; Dhal, Pradeep K. U.S. 6,433,026; 8/13/2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 5. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with polyallylamine
    : : polymers.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : > Stephen Randall; Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Burke, Steven K.;
    : : Goldberg,
    : : > : Dennis I. , US
    : : > : > 6,423,754; 7/23/2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 6. Ionic polymers as anti-infective agents Mandeville, W. Harry, III;
    : : > : Neenan, Thomas X..;
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall;, US 6,395,777; 5/28/2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 7. Combination therapy for treating hypercholesterolemia and
    : : > : atherosclerosis. Huval, Chad
    : : > : > Cori; Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall; Petersen, John S.; Dhal, Pradeep
    : : K.
    : : > : U.S. 6,365,186;
    : : > : > 4/2/2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 8. Fat binding polymers. Jozefiak, T.; Holmes-Farley; S. R.;
    : : Mandeville,
    : : > : W. H., III;
    : : > : > Huval; C.
    : : > : > C.; Garigapati, V. R.; Shackett, K. K.; Concagh, D, US 6,299,868;
    : : > : 10/9/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 9. Polymers containing guanidinium groups as bile acid sequestrants.
    : : Dhal;
    : : > : P. K.; Holmes-
    : : > : > Farley; S. R.; Petersen; J. S. US 6,294,163; 9/25/2001
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 10. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W.
    : : H.,
    : : > : III.; US
    : : > : > 6,281,252;
    : : > : > 8/28/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 11. Combination therapy for treating hypercholestrolemia. Huval; C.
    : : C.;
    : : > : Holmes-Farley; S.
    : : > : > R. ;
    : : > : > Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K. ; US 6,264,938; 7/24/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 12. Fat-binding polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.; Whitesides, G. M.;
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : > : > R.; US
    : : > : > 6,264,937; 7/24/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 13. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with unsubstituted
    : : > : polydiallylamine polymers.
    : : > : > Huval; C. C.; Holmes-Farley; S. R. ; Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K. ; US
    : : > : 6,248,318;
    : : > : > 6/19/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 14. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and alkylated
    : : > : compositions therefore.
    : : > : > Mandeville, W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,225,355; 5/1/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 15. Poly(diallylamine)-based bile acid sequestrants. Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : R.;
    : : > : Dhal, P. K.;
    : : > : > Petersen,
    : : > : > J. S.; US 6,203,785; 3/20/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 16. Polyether-Based Bile Acid Sequestrants. Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    : : Huval,
    : : > : C. C.; US
    : : > : > 6,190,649;
    : : > : > 2/20/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 17. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W.
    : : H.,
    : : > : III.; US
    : : > : > 6,177,478;
    : : > : > 1/23/2001.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 18. Water-insoluble noncrosslinked bile acid sequestrants.
    : : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : S. R.;
    : : > : > Mandeville, W.
    : : > : > H., III.; US 6,129,910; 10/10/2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 19. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with unsubstituted
    : : > : polydiallylamine polymers.
    : : > : > Huval; C. C.; Holmes-Farley; S. R. ; Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K. ; US
    : : > : 6,083,497;
    : : > : > 7/4/2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 20. Method of making phosphate-binding polymers for oral
    : : administration.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : > : > R.; Mandeville, W. H., III.; ; Whitesides, G. M. ; US 6,083,495;
    : : 7/4/2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 21. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and alkylated
    : : > : compositions therefore.
    : : > : > Mandeville, W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,066,678;
    : : 5/23/2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 22. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and compositions
    : : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    : : > : > W. H.,
    : : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,060,517; 5/9/2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 23. Ionic polymers as anti-infective agents. Mandeville, III; W. H;
    : : > : Neenan; T. X.; Holmes-
    : : > : > Farley; S. R. US 6,034,129; 3/7/2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 24. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W.
    : : H.,
    : : > : III.; US
    : : > : > 5,985,938;
    : : > : > 11/16/99.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 25. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and compositions
    : : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    : : > : > W. H.,
    : : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,981,693; 11/9/99.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 26. Hydrophobic sequestrant for cholesterol depletion. Mandeville, W.
    : : H.,
    : : > : III.;
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley;
    : : > : > S. R.; Petersen; J. S.. US 5,969,090; 10/19/99.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 27. Hydrophilic nonamine-containing and amine-containing copolymers
    : : and
    : : > : their use as bile
    : : > : > acid sequestrants. Holmes-Farley; S. R.; Petersen; J. S.. US
    : : 5,929,184;
    : : > : 7/27/99.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 28. Interpenetrating polymer networks for sequestration of bile acids.
    : : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : > : > III.;
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Neenan; T. X.; Whitesides; G. M. US 5,925,379;
    : : > : 7/20/99.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 29. Amine polymer sequestrant and method of cholesterol depletion.
    : : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : > : > III.;
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,919,832; 7/6/99.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 30. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and compositions
    : : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    : : > : > W. H.,
    : : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,917,007; 6/29/99.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 31. Polyamine salt hydrophobic sequestrant for cholesterol depletion.
    : : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : > : > III.;
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; US 5,900,475; 5/4/99.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 32. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and compositions
    : : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    : : > : > W. H.,
    : : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,840,766; 11/24/98.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 33. Preparation of polymeric sequestrants for bile acid salts.
    : : Mandeville,
    : : > : W. H., III.;
    : : > : > Holmes-
    : : > : > Farley, S. R.; US 5,703,188; 12/30/97.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 34. Oral administration of iron-binding crosslinked amine polymers.
    : : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : > : > III.;
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,702,696; 12/30/97.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 35. Alkylated amine polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley,
    : : S.
    : : > : R.; US 5,693,675;
    : : > : > 12/2/97.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 36. Method for removing bile salts from a patient with alkylated
    : : > : crosslinked amine
    : : > : > polymers,
    : : > : > and preparation of the polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.;
    : : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : S. R.; US
    : : > : > 5,679,717; 10/21/97.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 37. Phosphate-binding polymers for oral administration. Holmes-Farley,
    : : S.
    : : > : R.; Mandeville,
    : : > : > W.
    : : > : > H., III.; US 5,667,775; 9/16/97.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 38. Ion-exchange process using highly crosslinked polymers for
    : : removing
    : : > : bile salts from a
    : : > : > patient, preparation of the polymers, and compositions containing
    : : them.
    : : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,624,963; 4/29/97.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 39. Hydrophobic amine polymer sequestrant and method of cholesterol
    : : > : depletion. Mandeville,
    : : > : > W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; US 5,618,530;
    : : 4/8/97.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 40. Amine polymer sequestrant and method of cholesterol depletion.
    : : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : > : > III.;
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,607,669; 3/4/97.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 41. Phosphate-binding polymers for oral administration. Holmes-Farley,
    : : S.
    : : > : R.; Mandeville,
    : : > : > W.
    : : > : > H., III.; US 5,496,545; 3/5/96.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 42. Iron-binding polymers for oral administration. Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : > : III.; Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : > S. R.;
    : : > : > US 5,487,888; 1/30/96.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 43. Ultra-thin, uniform sol-gel coating of a substrate having active
    : : > : hydrogens on the
    : : > : > surface.
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Yanyo, L. C.; US 5,175,027; 12/29/92.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 44. Layered sol-gel coatings from organisilicon compounds.
    : : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : S. R.; Yanyo, L.
    : : > : > C.;
    : : > : > US 5,182,143; 1/26/93.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 45. Method for metal bonding using ultrathin primer coating.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Yanyo,
    : : > : > L.
    : : > : > C.; Thuer, A. M.; US 5,139,601; 8/18/92.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 46. Acrylic adhesive compositions. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Abbey, K. J.;
    : : US
    : : > : 5,096,962;
    : : > : > 3/17/92.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 47. Modified halogenatedpolyolefin adhesives for polyolefin
    : : > : elastomer-metal bonding.
    : : > : > Holmes-
    : : > : > Farley, S. R.; US 5,102,956; 4/7/92.
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > PUBLISHED PATENT APPLICATIONS (FOREIGN ISSUED ONLY OR NOT ISSUED)
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1. Aryl boronate functionalized polymers for treating obesity and
    : : > : inhibiting fat uptake.
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall; Mandeville, Harry W., III; Dhal,
    : : Pradeep
    : : > : K.; Huval, Chad
    : : > : > Cori; Li, Xinhua; Polomoscanik, Steven C. PCT Int. Appl. (2003), 92
    : : pp. WO
    : : > : 0302571.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 2. Preparation of aryl boronic acids for treating obesity.
    : : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : Stephen Randall;
    : : > : > Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Huval, Chad Cori; Li, Xinhua; Dhal, Pradeep
    : : K.
    : : > : (Geltex
    : : > : > Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (2003), 62 pp. WO 0302570.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 3. Fat-binding poly(diethanolaminopropyl)acrylamide. Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : Stephen Randall.
    : : > : > (Geltex Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (2003), 32 pp. WO
    : : > : 0302130.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 4. Method for reducing copper levels and treating copper toxicosis.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, Stephen
    : : > : > Randall. (Geltex Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (2002),
    : : 45
    : : > : pp. WO
    : : > : > 0285383.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 5. Method for treating gout and binding uric acid. Holmes-Farley,
    : : Stephen
    : : > : Randall; Burke,
    : : > : > Steven K. WO 0285381 10/31/2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 6. Method for treating gout and reducing serum uric acid.
    : : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : Stephen Randall;
    : : > : > Burke, Steven K WO 0285380 10/31/2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 7. Amine condensation polymer bile acid sequestrants. Huval, C. C.;
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    : : > : > Whitesides, G. M. WO 1999-US30469; 7/6/2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 8. Continuous crosslinking of polymer gels. Mandeville, W. H., III and
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : > : > R.;
    : : > : > WO 1999-US5662; 9/23/1999.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 9. Amine-containing copolymers as bile acid sequestrants.
    : : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : S. R.; Petersen,
    : : > : > J. S.;
    : : > : > WO 9933452; 7/8/1999.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 10. Polydiallylamine-based phosphate binders. Mandeville, W. H., III
    : : and
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : > : > R.;
    : : > : > WO 9922743; 5/14/1999.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 11. Polyallylamine polymers for removing bile salts and treating
    : : > : hypercholesterolemia, and
    : : > : > polymer preparation. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W. H., III;
    : : Burke,
    : : > : S. K.; Goldberg,
    : : > : > D. I.; WO 9857652; 12/23/98.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 12. Phosphate-bidning polymers combined with a calcium supplement for
    : : oral
    : : > : administration.
    : : > : > Goldberg, D. I.; Burke, S. K.; Mandeville, W. H., III; Holmes-Farley,
    : : S.
    : : > : R.; WO 9842355;
    : : > : > 10/1/98.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 13. Hydrophobic heteroatom-containing sequestrant for cholesterol
    : : > : depletion. Mandeville,
    : : > : > W.
    : : > : > H., III; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; WO 9639449; 12/12/96.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 14. Process for adjusting ion concentration in a patient and
    : : compositions
    : : > : therefor.
    : : > : > Mandeville,
    : : > : > W. H., III; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; WO 9427619; 12/8/94.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 15. Vacuum-deposited silver on polycarbonate with a chromium
    : : interlayer
    : : > : for improved
    : : > : > metal-
    : : > : > substrate adhesion. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Ger. Offen. 4322512;
    : : 1/20/94.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 16. Process for increased metal-substrate bond strength in metalized
    : : > : plastics.
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : > : > R.; Ger. Offen. 4322516; 7/6/93.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 17. Electrorheological fluids and preparation of particles useful in
    : : the
    : : > : fluids.
    : : > : > Troughton,
    : : > : > Barritt E., Jr.; Duclos, Theodore G.; Thuer, Anna Marie; Carlson, J.
    : : > : David; Bares, Joseph
    : : > : > E.;
    : : > : > Yanyo, Lynn C.; Farley, Stephen Randall Holmes; Acker, Debra Nell. EP
    : : > : 394049;
    : : > : > 10/24/1990.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > JOURNAL PUBLICATIONS
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1. Bile acid binding to sevelamer HCl. Braunlin, William; Zhorov,
    : : Eugene;
    : : > : Guo, Amy;
    : : > : > Apruzzese, William; Xu, Qiuwei; Hook, Patrick; Smisek, David L.;
    : : > : Mandeville, W. Harry;
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. Randall. Kidney International (2002), 62(2),
    : : 611-619.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 2. Amine functionalized polyethers as bile acid sequestrants:
    : : synthesis
    : : > : and biological
    : : > : > evaluation. Huval, Chad C.; Bailey, Matthew J.; Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : Randall;
    : : > : Mandeville, W.
    : : > : > Harry; Miller-Gilmore, Karen; Sacchiero, Robert J.; Dhal, Pradeep K.
    : : > : Journal of
    : : > : > Macromolecular Science, Pure and Applied Chemistry (2001), A38(12),
    : : > : 1559-1574.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 3. Novel Cholesterol Lowering Polymeric Drugs Obtained by Molecular
    : : > : Imprinting. Huval,
    : : > : > Chad C.; Bailey, Mathew J.; Braunlin, William H.; Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : > : Randall; Mandeville,
    : : > : > W.
    : : > : > Harry; Petersen, John S.; Polomoscanik, Steven C.; Sacchiro, Robert
    : : J.;
    : : > : Chen, Xi; Dhal,
    : : > : > Pradeep K. Macromolecules (2001), 34(6), 1548-1550.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 4. Synthetic polymers for the binding of fat in the intestinal tract.
    : : > : Jozefiak, Thomas H.;
    : : > : > Mandeville, W. Harry; Holmes-Farley, S. Randy; Arbeeny, Cynthia;
    : : Huval,
    : : > : Chad C.;
    : : > : > Sacchiero, Robert; Concagh, Danny; Yang, Kanwen; Maloney, Cynthia.
    : : > : Abstracts of
    : : > : > Papers, 222nd ACS National Meeting, Chicago, IL, United States, August
    : : > : 26-30, 2001
    : : > : > (2001), POLY-047 and Polymer Preprints (American Chemical Society,
    : : > : Division of
    : : > : > Polymer Chemistry) (2001), 42(2), 98.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 5. Colesevelam hydrochloride: Synthesis and testing of a novel polymer
    : : gel
    : : > : pharmaceutical.
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R; Mandeville, W. H.; Miller, K. L.; Petersen, J.;
    : : Ward,
    : : > : J.; Sacchiero,
    : : > : > B.;
    : : > : > Maloney, C.; Brochu, S.; Rosenbaum, D.; Goldberg, D.; Norton, K. A.;
    : : Chen,
    : : > : X.; Mazzeo, J.
    : : > : > R.. Polym. Preprints (2000), 41(1), 735-736.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 6. In vitro comparison of bile acid binding to colesevelam HCl and
    : : other
    : : > : bile acid
    : : > : > sequestrants.
    : : > : > Braunliin, W.; Zhorov, E.; Smisek, D.; Guo, A.; Appruzese, W.; Xu, Q.;
    : : > : Hook, P.; Holmes-
    : : > : > Farley, S. R; Mandeville, H. Polym. Preprints (2000), 41(1), 708-709.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 7. Novel polymeric pharmaceuticals: From startup to market.
    : : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : S. R; Polym.
    : : > : > Mater. Sci. Eng (1999), 80, 246-247.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 8. Design and characterization of of Sevelamer Hydrochloride: a novel
    : : > : phosphate-binding
    : : > : > pharmaceutical. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W. H., III; Ward,
    : : J.;
    : : > : Miller, K. L.;
    : : > : > Polym. Mater. Sci. Eng (1998), 79, 280-281 and also in J. M. S.- Pure
    : : and
    : : > : Appl. Chem.,
    : : > : > A36(7&8), p. 1085 (1999).
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 9. Three generations of bile acid sequestrants. Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : III;
    : : > : Braunlin, W.;
    : : > : > Dhal, P.;
    : : > : > Guo, A.; Huval, C.; Miller, K. L.; Petersen, J.; Polomascanik, S.;
    : : > : Rosenbaum, D.;
    : : > : > Sacchiero,
    : : > : > R.; Ward, J.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mat. Res. Soc. Symp. Proc. (1999),
    : : > : 550, 3-15.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 10. Effect of RenaGel, a non-absorbable, crosslinked, polymeric
    : : phosphate
    : : > : binder, on
    : : > : > urinary
    : : > : > phosphorous excretion in rats. Rosenbaum, D. P.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    : : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    : : > : > III; Pitruzzello, M. .; Goldberg, D. I..; Nephrol., Dial., Transplant.
    : : > : (1997), 12(5)
    : : > : > 961-964.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 11. Thin anisotropic coatings based on sol-gel technology.
    : : Holmes-Farley,
    : : > : S. R.; Yanyo, L.
    : : > : > C;
    : : > : > Mater. Res. Soc. Symp. Proc. (1990), 180 (Better Ceram. Chem. 4),
    : : 439-444.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 12. The mechanism of cure initiation of a surface activated adhesive.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : > : > R.;
    : : > : > Minichelli, J. L.; J. Adhes. Sci. Technol. (1991), 5(5), 409-420.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 13. Adhesion promotion and corrosion prevention using thin anisotropic
    : : > : coatings. Holmes-
    : : > : > Farley, S. R.; Yanyo, L. C.; J. Adhes. Sci. Technol. (1991), 5(2),
    : : > : 131-151.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 14. Wetting of functionalized polyethylene having ionizable organic
    : : acids
    : : > : and bases at the
    : : > : > polymer-water interface: relations between functional group polarity,
    : : > : extent of
    : : > : > ionization,
    : : > : > and contact angle with water. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Bain, C. D.;
    : : > : Whitesides, G. M.;
    : : > : > Langmuir
    : : > : > (1988), 4(4), 921-937.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 15. Binding of phenols to aluminum oxide surfaces. 1. Phenols with a
    : : > : single hydroxy group.
    : : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Langmuir (1988), 4(3), 766-774.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 16. Reconstruction of the interface of oxidatively functionalized
    : : > : polyethylene (PE-CO2H)
    : : > : > and
    : : > : > derivatives on heating. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Reamey, R. H.; Nuzzo,
    : : R.;
    : : > : McCarthy, T. J.;
    : : > : > Whitesides, G. M.; Langmuir (1987), 3(5), 799-815. See also Report
    : : (1987),
    : : > : AD-
    : : > : > A179590/5/GAR, Gov. Rep. Announce. Index (U. S.) 1987, 87(15).
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 17. Surface-modified polyethylene film: the relationship between
    : : surface
    : : > : chemistry and
    : : > : > physical
    : : > : > properties. Holmes-Farley, S. R; Diss. Abstr. Int. B 1987, 47(11),
    : : 4537.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 18. Reactivity of carboxylic acid and ester groups in the
    : : functionalized
    : : > : interfacial
    : : > : > region of
    : : > : > "polyethylene carboxylic acid" (PE-CO2H) and its derivatives:
    : : > : differentiation of the
    : : > : > functional groups into shallow and deep subsets based on a comparison
    : : of
    : : > : contact angle and
    : : > : > ATR-IR measurements. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Whitesides, G. M.; Langmuir
    : : > : (1987), 3(1), 62-
    : : > : > 76.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 19. Fluorescence properties of dansyl groups covalently bonded tot he
    : : > : surface of
    : : > : > oxidatively
    : : > : > functionalized low-density polyethylene film. Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    : : > : Whitesides, G. M.;
    : : > : > Langmuir (1986), 2(3), 266-281. See also Report (1985), TR-85-2;
    : : > : AD-A162435/2/GAR,
    : : > : > Gov. Rep. Announce. Index (U. S.) 1986, 86(7).
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 20. Acid-base behavior of carboxylic acid groups covalently attached
    : : at
    : : > : the surface of
    : : > : > polyethylene: The usefulness of contact angle in following the
    : : ionization
    : : > : of surface
    : : > : > functionality. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Reamey, R. H.; McCarthy, T. J.;
    : : > : Deutch, J.;
    : : > : > Whitesides,
    : : > : > G. M.; Langmuir (1985), 1(6), 725-740.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 21. The thermal stability of a surface modified solid organic polymer.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    : : > : > R.;
    : : > : > Whitesides, G. M.; Polym. Mater. Sci. Eng. (1985), 53, 127-131.
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > CORAL REEF AQUARIA CHEMISTRY PUBLICATIONS (ON LINE)
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 1. The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced
    : : > : Aquarist. June 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 2. The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser). Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : > : Advanced Aquarist.
    : : > : > May
    : : > : > 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 3. The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : > : Reefkeeping May
    : : > : > 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 4. Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals. Holmes-Farley, R. Reefkeeping
    : : > : April 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 5. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part II Effects on Macroalgae Growth.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : > : > Advanced Aquarist; April 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 6. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part II Effects on Macroalgae Growth.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : > : > Advanced Aquarist; April 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 7. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced
    : : Aquarist;
    : : > : March 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 8. How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : > : > Advanced Aquarist; February 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 9. Silica in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist; January
    : : > : 2003.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 10. Boron in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist;
    : : December
    : : > : 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 11. Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : Advanced
    : : > : Aquarist; November
    : : > : > 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 12. Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : > : Advanced Aquarist;
    : : > : > November 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 13. Phosphorus: Algae's Best Friend. Holmes-Farley, R.; Advanced
    : : Aquarist,
    : : > : September 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 14. Iron in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R.; Advanced Aquarist, August
    : : > : 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 15. Calcium and Alkalinity. Holmes-Farley, R.; Reefkeeping.com, April
    : : > : 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 16. Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced
    : : > : Aquarist; July 2002
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 17. Solutions to pH Problems. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist;
    : : June
    : : > : 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 18. The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : Advanced
    : : > : Aquarist, May
    : : > : > 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 19. The Chemical & Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification in Corals.
    : : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : > : > Advanced Aquarist, April 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 20. Calcium. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist; March 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 21. Alkalinity. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist; February 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 22. Specific Gravity. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist, January
    : : 2002.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 23. The Complete Nitrogen Cycle. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium Frontiers
    : : > : 2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 24. Magnesium: Calcium's little sister. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium
    : : > : Frontiers 2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 25. Phosphate..What is it and why should you care. Holmes-Farley, R.
    : : > : Aquarium Frontiers
    : : > : > 2000.
    : : > : > 26. Carbon Dioxide: Friend or Foe . Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium
    : : Frontiers
    : : > : 2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 27. Using Conductivity To Measure Salinity, R. Aquarium Frontiers
    : : 2000.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 28. Understanding Seawater. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium Frontiers 1999.
    : : > : >
    : : > : > 29. Protein Skimming: How it Works. Fishnet Library 1998.
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Boomer
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    : : > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    : : > : >
    : : > : > Want to See More ?
    : : > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
    : : > : > www.coralrealm.com
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > : >
    : : > :
    : : > :
    : : >
    : : >
    : :
    : :
    : :
    :
    :
     
    Boomer, Feb 12, 2004
    #78
  19. Dinky

    CapFusion Guest

    Stoutman, please do not get the wrong impression from this NG. We or I value your input. No one really know everything, including Boomer. For those really want to know who really know, they can test it themself from your example and be their own judge. I value your opinion and just as much as Boomer. I do not or anyone take it litterly just because anyone say so. It the same as closing your eye and someone tell you that the traffic light have turn green and it safe to walk across.

    CapFusion,...


    "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message news:NxAWb.10003$jk2.30564@attbi_s53...
    I shouldn't respond to this, but... kill file or no kill file ...

    >I have to assume Boomer won, because after a period of extreme tolerance, I placed stoutman in my killfile.


    Your going to settle for ASSUME. Then you must be making other assumptions along the way as well. YOU must also ASSUME that Boomer knows what he talking about along with what everyone else says. Nice logic. Yeah, don't read the discussion (and possibly learn something), just ASSUME he is right. Man, you must be the kind of person that votes for a president because you ASSUME he is a good candidate, instead of listening to the debate and making a decision for yourself. I feel sorry for you.

    >He appears ...


    Man, is that another way of saying ASSUME?

    >Stoutman came in touting his PHD, and hasn't appeared to be helpful to me.


    There it is again. Appears.

    >I believe most people of intelligence would assess the interactions of a group, and the value of the members before engaging in a prolonged, self aggrandizing, argument


    Why? So I can ASSUME so and so knows what they are talking about? That's the way YOU do things.

    >Boomer has been of very high value in this and other aquarium groups.


    Is this another one of your assumptions?



    This is your way of going through life. IT APPEARS, so I ASSUME, IT APPEARS, so I ASSUME, IT APPEARS, so I ASSUME.





    "Mike Imbler" <mike-imbler@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:SJyWb.19262$fV5.435127@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    I have to assume Boomer won, because after a period of extreme tolerance, I placed stoutman in my killfile. Boomer has been of very high value in this and other aquarium groups. His patience in answering the same questions from different reefers over and over again is greater than mine would be. He appears to have the respect of other well respected, and helpful resources. Stoutman came in touting his PHD, and hasn't appeared to be helpful to me. I believe most people of intelligence would assess the interactions of a group, and the value of the members before engaging in a prolonged, self aggrandizing, argument. If it weren't for posters like Boomer, I wouldn't be reading this newsgroup. Conversely, posters like Stoutman would discourage me from reading it if I didn't have a killfile.
    Mike
    "RicSeyler" <ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net> wrote in message news:KCwWb.12546$A75.6658@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
    We know who the winner is.....
    But your entitled to your opinion. LOL

    ReefTech wrote:

    Looks to me like Boomer lost this one.


    "Dragon Slayer" <koi_man@nospam_hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:c08a79$86iq$1@news3.infoave.net...

    Boomer when you read that, just let it go.............no need bashing

    heads

    here, the group knows what's going on.

    kc

    "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message

    news:SFNVb.204571$Rc4.1681932@attbi_s54...

    Oh brother. Where to start.

    pH is the -log of the hydronium ion concentration. When the hydronium

    ion

    concentration is very low, your system is basic (high pH). When the
    hydronium ion concentration is very large, your system is acidic (low

    pH).

    pH + pOH = 14. So yeah, you can calculate a pH from a pOH and vice

    versa.

    But a pH of < 7 means acidic. pH > 7 means basic.
    pH can tell you something about acidity and basicity. It is a

    measurement

    of both, or the entire pH scale (1-14) if you will.


    It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you have

    high

    CO2 and add an airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH.

    Ok, you are going to try and 'purge' (the correct term) your CO2 out

    with

    air. Yeah, I guess that would work. If you intentionally put the CO2

    in

    there to begin with because you must have a higher concentration of CO2

    in

    your tank than in the atmosphere. I don't intentionally put CO2 in my

    tank.

    But I know some of you reef people due in Kalk reactors.


    If Alk resists changes in pH then why does CO2 lower the pH without

    affecting the Alk.

    Alkalinity is buffering capacity. Your buffers begin to get weakened

    with

    the addition of acid until they reach a point when they can no longer
    'buffer' and the pH crashes.


    But I know what you mean, may use the term ALK and BC interchangeably

    Do you remember writing this in an earlier post? If you believe that
    alkalinity and buffering capacity can be used interchangeably than I

    must

    be

    getting through to you.


    When CO2 is added or remove it just changes the ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3.

    At

    any pH no matter what the Alk or CO2 there will be an exact ratio of
    CO2:HCO3:CO3

    Yes, at any pH there will be 'SOME' ratio of CO2:HCO3-1:CO3-2. What is

    your

    point here?


    Go ahead and pick a seawater pH and I will tell you what that ratio

    is.

    Tell me the pH and

    Alk and I will give the CO2 concentration. Give me the Alk and CO2

    and

    I

    will give you

    the pH. Don't forget the temperature and Salinity.

    Not interested. I can find my own software to do this too.


    Alk is defined as;

    TA = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--] + [B(OH)4-] + [OH-] + [Si(OH)3O-] + [MgOH+] +

    [HPO4--] +

    2[PO4---] - [H+]

    Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. What you are showing are components

    of

    a

    'BUFFER'. Which are used in the over all 'buffering capacity'. Are we
    going in circles here? Anyway, I think you are learning something.


    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters

    maximum BC is at a

    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little

    Buffering Capacity, if

    any at all.

    This is the 'primary buffer' in sea water:

    H2O + CO2 <---> H2CO3 <---> H+ + HCO3-1

    If you REALLY believe that sea water has little buffering capacity, than

    you

    need to do some reading on your own. I wont be able to convince you.


    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters

    maximum BC is at a

    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little

    Buffering Capacity, if

    any at all.

    This would be true if a monoprotic acid where used in the 'buffer', but
    carbonic acid (the primary buffering component in seawater) is a

    polyprotic

    acid. It has two protons that can dissociate. Therefore, it has two

    pKa's

    (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35.

    The

    pH of seawater varies from 7.6 to 8.4. Hmmm. That pH I calculated is
    right in there. Is that magic? :)

    Remember that seawater is more than a mixture of just carbonate and CO2,
    there are other buffers involved that make it even more complicated I'm
    sure.


    By the way do you know who you are talking to ?

    No. Do you?




    "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:102edca3c38a643@corp.supernews.com...

    Let me make this clear you don't know what you are taking about

    "alkalinity is a measurement of 'buffering capacity'"

    No, it is the ability to neutralize an acid. BC is the ability to

    withstand both upward

    and downward trends in pH.

    "pH is a measurement of 'acidity/basicity'.

    No, pH is a measurement of acidity and pOH is a measurement of

    Basicity,

    if you want to

    get picky, which seems you do.


    "How do you remove CO2? "

    It is called "blowing it off" , such as with an airstone. If you have

    high

    CO2 and add an

    airstone it will drive the CO2 off raising the pH. It can be proven

    with

    a

    glass of water,

    a straw, some pH color indicator and an Alk test kit and if you must a

    CO2

    test kit

    You can have all the alk you want in the world and it won't help, in

    regards to CO2

    "Wrong. Alkalinity increases your tank's ability to RESIST sharp

    changes

    in

    pH. This is what is meant by 'buffering capacity'"

    No you are wrong and very lost. If Alk resists changes in pH then why

    does

    CO2 lower the

    pH without affecting the Alk ? CO2 has no effect on alk and alk has no

    effect on CO2. When

    CO2 is added or remove it just changes the ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3. At

    any

    pH no matter what

    the Alk or CO2 there will be an exact ratio of CO2:HCO3:CO3

    ..
    Go ahead and pick a seawater pH and I will tell you what that ratio

    is.

    Tell me the pH and

    Alk and I will give the CO2 concentration. Give me the Alk and CO2

    and

    I

    will give you

    the pH. Don't forget the temperature and Salinity.

    Alk is defined as;

    TA = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--] + [B(OH)4-] + [OH-] + [Si(OH)3O-] + [MgOH+] +

    [HPO4--] +

    2[PO4---] - [H+]


    Buffering Capacity is defined as;

    BC = dCb/dpH = 2.303 (Kw/ [H3O+] + [H30+] + CKa[H3O+] / (Ka +

    [H3O+])²

    In any aqueous solution maximum BC is reached when pH= pKa. Seawaters

    maximum BC is at a

    pH of 6 & 9. For all practically purposes seawater has very little

    Buffering Capacity, if

    any at all.


    Alkalinity and Buffer Capacity are closely tied but are NOT the same

    thing, it is a

    misunderstanding and use of the term. Do you think water chemistry

    books

    would have

    separate sections on Alkalinity and Buffering Capacity if they were

    the

    same thing ?

    By the way do you know who you are talking to ?

    --
    Boomer

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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    Please Join Our Growing Membership
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    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up










    --
    Ric Seyler
    Online Racing: RicSeyler
    GPL Handicap 6.35
    ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net
    http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
    remove -SPAM- from email address
    --------------------------------------
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    - H.J. Simpson
     
    CapFusion, Feb 12, 2004
    #79
  20. Dinky

    stoutman Guest

    First let me address the main point (if there is a point) of this debate:

    Is alkalinity a measure of buffering capacity?????

    Buffering capacity is a function of both ALKALINITY and pH as described by
    the equation YOU posted.

    If you measure ALKALINITY and you know your pH you have determined your
    BUFFERING CAPACITY.

    Formula for BUFFERING CAPACITY:

    B (Buffering Index) = dCb / dpH = 2.303 ( Kw/[H30+] + [H30+] + CKa [H3O+]/
    (Ka + H3O+])² )

    Lets break it down ok?

    B = 2.303 ( Kw/[H30+] + [H30+] + CKa [H3O+]/(Ka + H3O+])² )

    with me so far?

    these are the variables:

    Kw = 1x10 -14
    Ka = acid dissociation constant (from a table)
    C = concentration of acid plus it's conjugate base.
    [H3O+] = [H+] determined from pH which = -log[H+]

    with me so far?

    Kw is known, Ka comes from a table (you even gave it for sw at one point),
    [H+] comes from pH. Only one we need to determine is C

    C = concentration of acid plus it's conjugate base

    acid = HCO3-
    conjugate base = CO3-2

    How can we determine the combined concentration of [HCO3-] and [CO3-2] ???
    hmmmmm. Oh, wait a minute.

    >Alkalinity = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3] +[OH] - [H+]


    Most people consider the source of alkalinity as [HCO3-] and [CO3-2]
    agreed?

    So when we measure Alkalinity we are in effect determining the combined
    concentration of HCO3- and CO3-2 (also called carbonate hardness)

    Agreed?

    Now we can plug these values into our BC equation and solve for BC.

    So, when we measure ALKALINITY (and we know the pH) we are in effect
    measuring BUFFERING CAPACITY.

    Agreed? (of course you don't) lol


    With regard to your other comments:

    Yeah, I used the wrong Ka's. I used FW instead of SW. Ok. OOps. I can go
    back and do the calculations over if you like. But it wont change the
    overall point I was making at the time (with the exception of the actual
    ratios).










    "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:102nfo0nudti1e8@corp.supernews.com...
    >
    > "I am not sure if you are just messing with me "
    >
    > Yes, messing with you, it is called trolling a troll, to see where the

    hell you would go
    > and what you would say in regards to last posts. It is called honesty, of

    which you have
    > none off to say the least,that I can see.You always like to post what

    suits you and just
    > avoid ref I give. So lets start where you are WRONG and have a great lack

    of understanding
    > of things, to include pointing out all your gross error which you still

    FAIL to
    > acknowledge and which can be prove in many water chem. ref. .I doubt like

    hell you are a
    > chemist at all.You seem to want to con people into thinkin' you are. But

    then again, I
    > have seen chemists like you before, they are not familiar with the, but

    they ASK to have
    > it explained and ask for REF.YOU just shoot from the hip. WHAT GETS YOU IN

    TROUBLE. You
    > remind me of snoot-noise kid that come here and other NG's and

    forums...that think they
    > know, buy hey, maybe I'm wrong :)
    >
    >
    >
    > 1). Acidity
    >
    > "***Benjamin,Water Chemistry (2002, pages 262-263).***
    >
    > ***Acidity A concept that is exactly analogous to alkalinity but measures

    the base
    > neutralizing
    > capacity (BNC) of a solution is Acidity. The quantitative represents the

    concentration of
    > OH- ions that must be added to titrate the solution to a pH near 10.5***
    >
    > So that means that not only in Benjamin wrong but, so are Stumm & Morgan,

    Millero, Pilosn,
    > Riley & Chester, Pankow, Snoeyink & Jenkins, just to name a few. As I

    said, you have your
    > acidity and Acidy mixed up. Acidity as defined above is covered in most

    water chemistry
    > books, written by chemists, who's field of expertise is water chemistry.

    You can even buy
    > Acidity test kits from, HACH, LaMotte, etc..
    >
    > You mean you didn't read this or are you just avoiding it .The same

    definition can be
    > found in almost any std water chemistry book.
    >
    > I have run into few chemists, that are NOT familiar with the above. Some

    water reports
    > require the above Acidity measuring. The issue with you is you do not

    understand WATER
    > CHEMISTRY. Everything you have posted can be found a general chemistry

    book
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > 2) Alk and BC
    >
    > From the link
    >
    > Alkalinity
    > ***Acid neutralizing or buffering capacity of water; a measure of the

    ability of water to
    > resist changes in pH caused by the addition of acids or bases ***
    >
    > This is a Buffering Capacity definition not Alk
    >
    > Humm, since when does Alk have anything to do in regards to the addition

    of BASE. As I
    > pointed out in the first post the term is often miss used. Even in YOUR

    own posts you say
    > it is based on a acid addition, no mention of **base or acid** addition

    by you. Are you
    > getting confused or what. Or is more you are trying to confuse everyone

    you are right. The
    > above is a definition for Buffer Capacity NOT Alk
    >
    > From Drew, Geochemistry of Natural Waters
    >
    > "alkalinity, which is formally defined as the equivalent sum of bases that

    are titratable
    > with strong acid(Stumm & Morgan, 1966; Aquatic Chemistry). If the pH of

    the solution is
    > progressively lowered by the addition of a strong acid (HCL), all the

    anions on the right
    > will be converted to uncharged species (H2CO3,B(OH)3, H4SiO4, H2S,organic

    acids, H20)"
    >
    > This follows almost all description of Alk, that it is acid neutralizing

    reaction and has
    > nothing to do with base neutralizing, which is Acidity (BNC) .I defined

    these before you
    > had no comment
    >
    >
    > Even the links that give the Buffering Capacity definition is wrong, as is

    the UIPAC on
    > Alkalinity. Alkalinity has nothing to do with the addition of bases only

    acids. When you
    > use the words "base and acid" it becomes BC
    >
    > Even YOU MUST disagree with these definitions, from YOUR own post
    >
    > Think of alkalinity as 'buffering capacity'. Or the ability of a solution
    > ***to resist a drop in pH due to the addition of acid***
    >
    > Where the flip is the base addition forget it ?
    >
    > From Butler; Carbon Dioxide Equilibrium and Their Applications (professor

    emeritus
    > Harvard University) an expert on the subject.
    >
    > Buffering Index (Buffering Capacity, Buffer Intensity).
    >
    > ***This concept was first developed for mixtures of approximately equal

    proportions of
    > conjugate acid and base (i.e., 0.05 M NaHCO3 and .050 M Na2CO3. Such

    buffer solutions
    > strongly resist changes in pH when acids or bases are added and are useful

    as pH
    > standards. The Buffer Index tells how great the resistance to pH changes

    will be.**
    >
    > also from Butler
    >
    > Alkalinity = {HCO3-] + 2[CO3] +[OH] - [H+]
    >
    > Acidity = [Cl-] - Na+] = [H+] - HCO3 - 2[CO3] - [OH-]
    >
    > Acidity is in fact just the negative of Alkalinity ***
    >
    > http://www.lagoonsonline.com/acid.htm
    >
    >

    http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/DATABASE.CART/REDLINE_PAGES/D1067.h
    tm?E+mystore
    >
    > It sure is funny how all of the chemist that write water chemistry

    textbooks never say Alk
    > is the Buffering Capacity of a solution. They are always treated and

    defined separately.
    >
    > If you or others choose to treat Alk and BC as the same, well, just have

    at it. As I said
    > in first post I know what you mean.
    >
    > "No need to cite web pages that describe what I know and what I wrote
    > in this discussion"
    >
    > No you don't know, who are you trying to convince any way, me, the guys

    here and/or all
    > the water chemists in this world. As I said before go get a dam WATER

    CHEMISTRY book or
    > shut the hell up.You keep trying to define things from a general chemistry

    book WE ARE IN
    > THE WORLD OF WATER CHEMISTRY HERE. Get you definitions straight.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > 3). pKa's and what you don't know or seem to be confused on
    >
    > "Therefore, it has two pKa's
    > (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35.

    The
    > pH of seawater varies from 7.6 to 8.4. Hmmm. That pH I calculated is
    > right in there. Is that magic? :)"
    >
    > Here it is agin that is twice at least
    >
    > "The pKa of CO3-2 is 10.3. Thus, at a pH of 8.3 (seawater for this

    example)
    > you would have a 1 : 100 ratio of CO3-2 and HCO3-2. The equilibrium will
    > be shifted to HCO3-2 by a ratio of 1:100.
    >
    > Oh wait , there is a third time LOL
    >
    > "At the pH of seawater, the buffering capacity of carbonate is at it's
    > weakest. It's strongest buffering is at a pH of 6.4 and 10.3."
    >
    >
    > Lets just dunk you on this one. I am taking note you refuse to reply to

    YOUR errors
    >
    > So you calculated the pH of seawater with freshwater pKa's, now that is a

    good trick. From
    > a number of seawater chemistry books the seawater pKa's are 6 & 9.1, so

    according to you,
    > seemingly not understanding your favorite Henderson-Hasselbach equation;
    >
    > 2 pH = (6 + 9.1) /2 pH = 7.55
    >
    > I have never seen seawater with a pH of 7.55. There is no ocean with that

    pH. Humm how
    > come your equation is not working for you today.?
    >
    >
    > "That pH I calculated is
    > right in there. Is that magic? :)"
    >
    > I roll on the floor when I see this = 8.35
    >
    > Hum , just a brain far so excuse me for thinkin
    >
    > (pKa1 and pKa2). pH = (pKa1 + pKa2)/2 pH = (6.4 + 10.3)/2 pH = 8.35
    >
    > Ok, we know those are FW pKa's. So, hummmmmm how come FW isn't at a pH of

    8.35 there pal
    > ? That 8.35 is what you are telling people the pH should be, but their

    meter says 6.4.
    > This how people will READ this.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > 4.) More on Buffering Capacity
    >
    > "Do you recognize [HCO3-1] and [CO3-2] from another equation ? Yes, your
    > alkalinity equation."'
    >
    >
    > Yup, I see that and in this case the HCO3 is the acid and the CO3 is the

    base CORRECT. In
    > Alk you are only dealing with bases and how they react to an acid. Acidity

    deals acids and
    > how they recact to bases "Acidity, A concept that is exactly analogous to

    alkalinity but
    > measures the base neutralizing
    > capacity (BNC) of a solution is Acidity "Alk is the ANC Acid neutralizing

    capacity
    >
    > "Don't the components of a buffer account for the buffering capacity? "
    >
    > Yes, they do but so do the acids which work as buffers. NaHCO3 is a buffer

    and can act as
    > an acid or base
    >
    > *** Buffering Capacity.**
    > The power of a substance in solution to absorb acid or alkali without

    change in pH; this
    > is highest at a pH value equal to the pKa value of the acid of the buffer

    pair.***
    >
    > ***Akalinity***
    > Measure of the power of a solution to neutralise hydrogen ions (H+),

    usually expressed as
    > the equivalent concentration (mg/L) of calcium carbonate (CaCO3).
    >
    >
    > If one wants to call Alk Buffering capacity then one sure as a hell can

    call Acidty
    > Buffering Capacity also. As it is the ability to neutralizes an acid that

    is a buffer.You
    > have a pH of 7 and you add a buffer to lower it to a pH of 4, you are

    buffering the water,
    > that buffer is a acid.
    >
    > 5) CO2
    >
    > You are really confuse so it seems :) You realllllllly indicate that CO2

    is affected by
    > the Alk or vise-versa
    >
    > "Yes, the pH will drop with the addition of CO2. Remove CO2 will cause

    the
    > pH to rise? How do you remove CO2? Once it is in solution it forms
    > carbonic acid and neutralizes some of your 'buffer'."
    >
    > "With the exception of CO2?"
    >
    > No it doesn't, CO2 has ZERO effect on Alk (Pankow, Aquatic Chemistry
    > Concepts)....PERIOD.You seem to think a that at least in two of your post

    that CO2 is
    > affected by the Alk or vise-versa. Please go back to school or seek

    professor
    >
    > "Why in one case does CO2 from air lower pH and in the other case it

    raises
    > it? Doesn't make sense."
    >
    > That is because you don't understand CO2 period. By the way I saved this,

    wanted to see
    > if you would bite on the post I gave. Not bite at first, so time to reel

    you in, as you
    > did bite in another post..
    >
    > Lets make some sense of it for you, being that you have a pH.D in

    chemistry, so you say .
    >
    > CO2 is naturally generated in a aquatic systems, it is capable of raise to

    various levels
    > depending on a number of circumstances .It can be measure (except in

    seawater) or
    > calculated using Buch/Park Equations (what we use for seawater. In sort if

    you know the pH
    > and Alk you can calculate the CO2). If you aerate a system or a sample of

    water, even if
    > the pH has only dropped a couple of tenths, due to an increase in CO2, the

    CO2 will leave
    > solution to the atmosphere.This will raise the pH. On the other hand if

    theCO2 level is
    > more of the norm and you have hikgh room air, such as in the winter, the

    partial pressure
    > of the CO2 in air will be much higher than that in water, in which case

    the CO2 will enter
    > the water and lower the pH. That is without an airstone. Adding an

    airstone will make it
    > even worse,as you are now forcefully driving the CO2 into solution even

    quicker. These
    > test /experiments have been proven many times, it is not that may work

    could work they do
    > work.Yet you want to disagree and in another post say you haven't tried

    it,.Seems to me
    > that based on what you say it can't work So, in short you don't know what

    the hell you are
    > taking about. Go get a glass of seawater with a pH of about 8.3 and lower

    it to about
    > 8.0.-81 with CO2, then aerated it and watch the pH go the HELL-BACK- UP

    ( that is if you
    > don't have a high room air CO2 problem.). This little test has been done

    thousands of
    > times in this hobby, with test kits, pH meters and even graphic printers.
    >
    > "This is where Boomer and I
    > disagree. I say you would have to lower the pH very low in order to
    > effectively remove CO2 by purging."
    >
    > You are 100 % wrong. Please come to our Chem forum and try and run that by

    Randy, don't
    > take my word on it. I already know what he will say.
    >
    > "Boomer didnt convince me it
    > works at the pH of an aquarium, but I never tried it and I'm not sure of
    > this. "
    >
    > Well then come too our chem. forum and tell Randy he doesn't know what he

    is talking about
    > LOL. It is a realllllllllly easy test, having a Ph.D in chemistry, it

    should be easy for
    > you to run the experiment LOL There are grade school kids that run the

    test and know what
    > happens and that I'm correct.
    >
    >
    > "The equilibrium is a FUNCTION
    > of pH."
    >
    > It is also a function of Alk or don't you know that. At a pH of 8.3, Alk

    2.25, the CO2 is
    > about .45 meq / l, in seawater, @25C and 35 ppt. If you raise the Alk to

    about .4 meq/ l
    > or so the CO2 will be around .99 mg / l CO2, When dealing with tanksCO2 is

    not always in
    > equilibrium with ambient air.
    >
    >
    > ". But I wouldn't degas a solution of a
    > specific gas (CO2) with a gas (this case he was using air) that contains

    the
    > same gas I am trying to purge."
    >
    > Why not ? We have a guy right now that is running tests on purging ambient

    air with a
    > solution to remove CO2 gas from the air, before it enters the tank

    per/Randy's suggestion.
    > The same guy is doing some of my test using a Clinoptilolite, a Zeolite

    mineral, that has
    > an affinity for CO2.This will be a dry CO2 scrubber
    >
    >
    > Sorry Soutman but you sure as hell don't seem to know much about aquatic

    chemistry. You
    > seem to be guessing at everything.
    >
    > By the way have you read any of Randy's technical articles on water

    chemistry, been saving
    > these for last. There are a few on pH, Alk, CO2 .Here is a list
    >
    > Try and answer them 1-5 and lets see where we get THIS TIME :) or maybe

    we should just
    > drop it. I could care less at this point.
    >
    > THE END
    >
    >
    > ARTICLES
    >
    > The first two posts in this thread are lists of some of my articles that

    relate to reef
    > tank chemistry. In the next few posts are some of the articles published

    by Craig Bingman
    > and others on reef chemistry issues.
    >
    > The first two posts in this thread are lists of some of my articles that

    relate to reef
    > tank chemistry. In the next few posts are some of the articles published

    by Craig Bingman
    > and others on reef chemistry issues.
    >
    > Solving Common Problems
    >
    > Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
    >
    > Solutions to pH Problems
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2002/chem.htm
    >
    > How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
    >
    > Phosphate Issues
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2002/chem.htm
    >
    > Nitrate Issues
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...st2003/chem.htm
    >
    >
    >
    > Calcium and Alkalinity
    >
    > Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
    >
    > How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
    >
    > Calcium and Alkalinity Balance Issues
    > http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm
    >
    > Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement (Aragamight; Liquid Reactor)
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ly2002/chem.htm
    >
    > The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH.
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm
    >
    > The Chemical & Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification in Corals
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm
    >
    > Calcium
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2002/chem.htm
    >
    > Alkalinity
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...2/chemistry.htm
    >
    >
    > Iron
    >
    > First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm
    >
    > Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
    >
    > Iodine
    >
    > Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm
    >
    > Iodine in Reef Tanks 2: Effects on Macroalgae Growth
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...il2003/chem.htm
    >
    >
    > Magnesium and Strontium
    >
    > Strontium
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/chem.htm
    >
    > Magnesium
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm
    >
    > Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm
    >
    >
    > Limewater (kalkwasser)
    >
    > The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser)
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm
    >
    > The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air
    > http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm
    >
    > How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
    >
    > Metals in Aquaria
    >
    > Aluminum and aluminum-based phosphate binders
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ly2003/chem.htm
    >
    > Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals
    > http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm
    >
    > Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm
    > First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm
    >
    > Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
    >
    >
    > Test Kit Reviews
    >
    > The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2003/chem.htm
    >
    > The Salifert Boron Test Kit
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2003/chem.htm
    >
    > Boron and Borate (and pH buffering)
    >
    > Boron in a Reef Tank (and its effect on pH buffering)
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2002/chem.htm
    >
    > The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2003/chem.htm
    >
    > The Salifert Boron Test Kit
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2003/chem.htm
    >
    >
    >
    > Others
    >
    > Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm
    >
    > ORP
    > http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm
    >
    > Chloramine
    > http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm
    >
    > Silica in a Reef Tank
    > http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm
    >
    > Specific Gravity (and temperature correction of hydrometers)
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...2/chemistry.htm
    >
    >
    > The Complete Nitrogen Cycle
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...a&RecordNo=3090
    >
    > Magnesium (older article with fonts screwed up)
    > http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=
    >
    > Phosphate (older article now reproduced in a poor fashion)
    > http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=
    >
    > Carbon Dioxide
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...a&RecordNo=2074
    >
    > Using Conductivity to Measure Salinity
    > http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=
    >
    > Understanding Seawater
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp
    >
    > Protein Skimming: How It Works
    > http://home.mweb.co.za/jv/jv79/reef/skimmers2.html
    >
    >
    >
    > Articles by Craig Bingman:
    >
    > Carbon Dioxide tests
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...n=&RecordNo=279
    >
    > Limewater, Acetic Acid and Sand Clumping
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/l...n=&RecordNo=181
    >
    > Calcium and Alkalinity
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Calculation of Calcium Carbonate Saturation States in Reef Aquaria
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    >
    > Calcification Rates in Several Tropical Coral Reef Aquaria
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Limits To Limewater...Revisited
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Expanding the Limits of Limewater: Adding Organic Carbon Sources (vinegar)
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    >
    > Magnesium Ion Precipitation in Reef Aquaria: A Tempest in a Teapot
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Magnesium - Part I
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Magnesium - Part II
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > A Homemade Magnesium Supplement
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions

    on Reef Systems
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride
    > /Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    >
    > More articles by Craig Bingman:
    >
    > The Halogens - Part I: Bromine in Seawater and Aquaria
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > The Halogens - Part II: Fluoride
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Fluoride Depletion In Four Reef Aquariums
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > The Halogens - Part III: Iodine
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Measuring Halides
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > How Test Kits Work
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Borax pH Calibration
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > A pH Detective Story
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > How to Mix a Batch of Synthetic Seawater in Under Five Minutes
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > Increasing Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide: Likely Effects on Coral Reefs
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    > SILICON - FOE OR FRIEND?
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp
    >
    > The Composition Of Several Synthetic Seawater Mixes
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...s/1/default.asp
    >
    > Calcium Carbonate for CaCO3/CO2 Reactors: More Than Meets the Eye
    > http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/...bio/default.asp
    >
    >
    >
    > Andy's calcium calculator
    > http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/cacalc.htm
    >
    > Greg Hillers analysis of limestone media for CaCO3/CO2 reactors
    > http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariu...cid=124&search=
    >
    > Calcium Reactor Substrate -- Phosphate Levels
    > by Greg Hiller
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...l2003/short.htm
    >
    >
    > Indoor CO2 Problems
    > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...r2002/short.htm
    >
    > Simon Huntington's CaCO3/CO2 reactor article
    >
    > http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm
    >
    > Ron Shimek's Tank Water Analysis Article
    > http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Home made salinity standards thread:
    >
    > http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...?threadid=65509
    >
    > Reef Chemicals Calculator
    > http://www.kademani.com/reefchem.htm
    >
    >
    >
    > Boomer
    >
    > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    >
    > WCWing@Chartermi.Net
    > Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    > Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
    >
    > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    >
    >
    > --
    > Boomer
    >
    > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    >
    > Want to See More ?
    > Please Join Our Growing Membership
    > www.coralrealm.com
    >
    > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message

    news:aGuWb.148227$U%5.676753@attbi_s03...
    > : Boomer,
    > :
    > : I am not sure if you are just messing with me or if you are truly

    confused.
    > : I hope the latter. Please read from Top to Bottom.
    > :
    > :
    > : From YOUR first link:
    > :
    > : http://www.waterontheweb.org/resources/glossary.html
    > :
    > : Acidity:
    > : A measure of how acid a solution may be. A solution with a pH of less

    than
    > : 7.0 is considered acidic. Solutions with a pH of less than 4.5 contain
    > : mineral acidity (due to strong inorganic acids), while a solution having

    a
    > : pH greater than 8.3 contains no acidity.
    > :
    > : Yes,
    > :
    > : Good definition (for the most part). pH <7 is indeed acidic. pH > 7 is
    > : basic. Your web page had a definition for acidity, but not basicity.
    > : Strange. That's like defining GOOD and not defining BAD.
    > :
    > : Here is the IUPAC (International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry)
    > : definition of acidity:
    > :
    > : http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/index.html
    > :
    > : acidity
    > :
    > : (1) Of a compound:
    > :
    > : For Brønsted acids it means the tendency of a compound to act as a

    hydron
    > : donor. It can be quantitatively expressed by the acid dissociation

    constant
    > : of the compound in water or some other specified medium. For Lewis acids

    it
    > : relates to the association constants of Lewis adducts and -adducts.
    > :
    > : (2) Of a medium:
    > :
    > : The use of the term is mainly restricted to a medium containing Brønsted
    > : acids, where it means the tendency of the medium to hydronate a specific
    > : reference base
    > :
    > : basicity
    > :
    > : For Brønsted bases it means the tendency of a compound to act as hydron
    > : (proton) acceptor. The basicity of a chemical species is normally

    expressed
    > : by the acidity of the conjugate acid (see conjugate acid-base pair). For
    > : Lewis bases it relates to the association constants of Lewis adducts
    > : and -adducts
    > :
    > :
    > :
    > : Another definition from the same web page YOU cited: (this is the same

    web
    > : page you cited above)
    > :
    > : Alkalinity:
    > : Acid neutralizing or buffering capacity of water; a measure of the

    ability
    > : of water to resist changes in pH caused by the addition of acids or

    bases
    > : and therefore, the main indicator of susceptibility to acid rain; in

    natural
    > : waters it is due primarily to the presence of bicarbonates, carbonates

    and
    > : to a much lesser extent occasionally borates, silicates and phosphates.

    It
    > : is expressed in units of milligrams per liter (mg/l) of CaCO3 (calcium
    > : carbonate) or as microequivalents per liter (ueq/l) where 20 ueq/l = 1

    mg/l
    > : of CaCO3. A solution having a pH below about 5 contains no alkalinity.
    > :
    > : Your own post defines alkalinity as BUFFERING CAPACITY OF WATER and says
    > : that alkalinity is the measure of ...(description of a buffer)
    > :
    > : A BUFFER IS : a measure of the ability of water to resist changes in pH
    > : caused by the addition of acids or bases (from definition below)
    > :
    > :
    > : I said:
    > : ***alkalinity is a measurement of 'buffering capacity'***
    > :
    > : You said:
    > : ***Alkalinity is not a measurement of BC
    > :
    > : WHY WOULD YOU POST A LINK THAT CONTRADICTS WHAT YOU SAID?? This is not
    > : logical.
    > :
    > : (THIS FROM THE SAME WEB PAGE YOU CITED):
    > :
    > : Buffer:
    > : A substance which tends to keep pH levels fairly constant when acids or
    > : bases are added.
    > :
    > : THIS IS FROM THE DEFINITION OF ALKALINITY FROM SAME WEB PAGE.
    > :
    > : a measure of the ability of water to resist changes in pH caused by the
    > : addition of acids or bases
    > :
    > : SO DON'T TELL ME THIS SENTENCE DOESN'T DESCRIBE THE ACTIONS OF A BUFFER.
    > :
    > :
    > : I went to all four links. None contradict what I have said. But the

    first
    > : one you cited contradicts YOU!
    > :
    > : I know what a buffer is. I know what acidity means. I know what

    alkalinity
    > : means. No need to cite web pages that describe what I know and what I

    wrote
    > : in this discussion. Show me one that says alkalinity is not a measure

    of
    > : buffering capacity from a credible source.
    > :
    > :
    > :
    > :
    > :
    > :
    > : "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    > : news:102kn4e6f2vvb1@corp.supernews.com...
    > : > Alkalinity a measure of the amount of anions of weak acid in water and

    of
    > : the cations
    > : > balanced against them
    > : > Take note it says ***acid***
    > : >
    > : > Buffering capacity the ability of a solution to resist or dampen

    changes
    > : in pH upon the
    > : > addition of acids or bases.
    > : > Take note its says ***the addition of acids or bases***
    > : >
    > : > One more
    > : >
    > : > http://www.waterontheweb.org/resources/glossary.html
    > : >
    > : > We could go on like this all day, so what is the point ?
    > : >
    > : > You will LOVE this one
    > : > http://www.kyantec.com/Tips/phbuffering.htm
    > : >
    > : > Don't you just lovbe PDF's
    > : > http://www.inform.umd.edu/manurenet/reprints/98.1702.pdf
    > : >
    > : > Don't fall out of your chair
    > : > http://www.chemforlife.org/teacher/topics/chemistry_in_an_aquarium.htm
    > : >
    > : >
    > : >
    > : >
    > : > --
    > : > Boomer
    > : >
    > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    > : >
    > : > Want to See More ?
    > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
    > : > www.coralrealm.com
    > : >
    > : > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    > : > "stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message

    news:XB7Wb.19339$QA2.62332@attbi_s52...
    > : > : Man here is another, google is a wonderful thing. I'm not filtering

    any
    > : > : out, just posting what I find by GOOGLING for you.
    > : > :
    > : > : http://www.globe.gov/hq/trr_suppl/hydro/HY_SUP_ALK_INTRO_NOTES.HTML
    > : > :
    > : > :
    > : > : Wow, a gov link. Even the government is wrong, this must be a
    > : conspiracy
    > : > : against Boomer.
    > : > :
    > : > :
    > : > :
    > : > :
    > : > : "Boomer" <wcwing_nospam_@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    > : > : news:102ht0bjplpo059@corp.supernews.com...
    > : > : > Now I am getting bored
    > : > : >
    > : > : > "Don't the components of a buffer account for the buffering

    capacity?
    > : > : Yes."
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Yes, agreed but you seem to fail what I'm saying. Buffering

    Capacity
    > : and
    > : > : Alkalinity are
    > : > : > not the same, that has always been the issue. I gave the equation

    does
    > : > : that look like an
    > : > : > Alkalinity equation or how Alk is determined. I see you had now
    > : comments
    > : > : on it what's
    > : > : > wrong, why no comments on the equations I gave. Don't understand

    them
    > : or
    > : > : what ? Again this
    > : > : > is the equation for Buffering Capacity, also called Buffer Index

    or
    > : Buffer
    > : > : Intensity. It
    > : > : > is defined in most water chemistry and chemical oceanography text
    > : books.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > B (Buffering Capacity) = dCb / dpH = 2.303 ( Kw/[H30+] + [H30+] +
    > : CKa
    > : > : [H3O+] / (Ka =
    > : > : > H3O+])² )
    > : > : >
    > : > : > This is not Alkalinity now is it ?
    > : > : >
    > : > : > "I know how to do a titration, In fact I have done several. How

    many
    > : have
    > : > : > you actually done? I don't mean by counting drops, I mean with a
    > : buret?"
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Well good for you, I use a Digital Titrator
    > : > : >
    > : > : > "Oh, I see,
    > : > : > you think acidity is the opposite of alkalinity. In the world of
    > : > : CHEMISTRY
    > : > : > it's not. Maybe in aquarium newsgroups it is.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Hum no, maybe you should go for a look at HACH's or LaMotte

    website or
    > : the
    > : > : book I
    > : > : > suggested earlier. Please view a copy.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Standard Methods for the Examination of Water and Wastewater
    > : > : >
    > : > : > This book, over 2000 pages, is the guide for water testing. If you

    are
    > : > : reporting water
    > : > : > test to the EPA you must use approved std from this text.I t is
    > : prepared
    > : > : and published by
    > : > : > the EPA, American Water Works Association and American Public

    Health
    > : > : Association. You
    > : > : > mean you don't have one and the issue is water chemistry
    > : > : >
    > : > : > You are confusing Acidity and Acidity as you know little about

    water
    > : > : chemistry and
    > : > : > procedures and test methods
    > : > : >
    > : > : > From SMEWW, section 2-30, 2310 ACIDITY
    > : > : >
    > : > : > "Acidity of water is its quantative capacity to react with a

    strong
    > : base
    > : > : to a designated
    > : > : > pH"
    > : > : >
    > : > : > This is how you test for it
    > : > : >
    > : > : > A std alkali titration to methyl orange or phenolphthalein
    > : > : > endpoint.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > BUT YOU SAID THIS IS WRONG. Please tell all the chemist that

    write
    > : this
    > : > : book, there are
    > : > : > over 100 of them, they are wrong.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Like Buffering Capacity you have your Acidity's mixed up
    > : > : > In water measurement if you have a high Alk you also usually have

    a
    > : high
    > : > : Acidity.
    > : > : > Normally a high Alk also gives a higher CO2 level. Get a WATER
    > : CHEMISTRY
    > : > : BOOK there pal.
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > "These are all in equilibrium with each other. An initial high pH
    > : (above
    > : > : > 6.4) will shift the equilibrium to the right to form HCO3-1. If

    the
    > : pH of
    > : > : > the solution is above 10.3 (pKa2) the .........."
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Christ, there you go again with the FW shit. All your numbers are
    > : wrong we
    > : > : are dealing
    > : > : > with SEAWATER
    > : > : >
    > : > : > This means that at a pH of 8.3, the majority of the CO2(aq) is in

    the
    > : form
    > : > : > of HCO3-1 .
    > : > : >
    > : > : > I have already pointed that out and gave actual values at know
    > : seawater
    > : > : levels, go back
    > : > : > and re-read it you aren't telling me anything here.Of course most

    is
    > : HCO3
    > : > : see...
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > @ 20C and 34.3 ppt salinity
    > : > : >
    > : > : > CO2 = 0.52 %
    > : > : >
    > : > : > HCO3 = 86.4 %
    > : > : >
    > : > : > CO3 = 13.09 %
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > "In your glass experiment you managed to lower the pH enough to

    purge
    > : out
    > : > : CO2
    > : > : > by boiling"
    > : > : >
    > : > : > The purpose behind the glass is to show that alk is not affect by

    CO2
    > : and
    > : > : vise-versa and
    > : > : > how Co2 affects pH.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Now, in a real life seawater aquarium, with a pH of 8.3 and that

    pH
    > : drops
    > : > : to say 8.1 it is
    > : > : > usually due to excess CO2. If you took a glass of that water and
    > : aerated
    > : > : it you WILL drive
    > : > : > off the CO2 and raise the pH. It has been done a proven a million
    > : times.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > "In order to 'purge' CO2 you would need to lower the
    > : > : > pH to shift the equilibrium to below 6.4"
    > : > : >
    > : > : > The hell you do !!!.Do you know who many times people on this NG

    to
    > : > : include Dr. Craig
    > : > : > Bingman a chemist and Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley have mentioned to

    take a
    > : > : sample of aquarium
    > : > : > water and aerate it to see if the pH GOES UP AND when they come

    back
    > : with
    > : > : the test it is
    > : > : > often YES the pH went back up. PROBLEM THERE MISTER PH.D CHEMIST
    > : excess
    > : > : CO2 in the tank
    > : > : > water, increase the circulation for better gas exchange at the
    > : surface,
    > : > : reduce feeding,
    > : > : > and try to improve on better skimming, thus reducing the bio-load

    and
    > : pH
    > : > : decline due to
    > : > : > CO2.
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > "I hope this helps. "
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Help, how can you when you miss everything. I should be charging

    you
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Oh, by the way. Your websites, I have about 50 on these issues, I
    > : could
    > : > : post them, not to
    > : > : > mention I have all those water chemistry books, so there is no

    need to
    > : > : view your sites.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Finally are you afraid to come to our Chemistry Forum, afraid to

    get
    > : > : slapped by REAL
    > : > : > chemists. I get a charge out of you can't post your ref .I have

    posted
    > : the
    > : > : same or similar
    > : > : > stuff on his forum and I wasn't pointed out WRONG pal. I have 1500
    > : posts
    > : > : there and am the
    > : > : > biggest contributor to his forum other than himself or maybe Habib
    > : Sheka
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Hum, here are Randy's ref that he posted. He hosts the website
    > : > : >
    > : > : > S. RANDY HOLMES-FARLEY
    > : > : > Arlington, Massachusetts
    > : > : >
    > : > : > EDUCATION
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1982-1986 Harvard University Cambridge, MA
    > : > : > PhD in Chemistry
    > : > : > Research Advisor: George Whitesides
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Investigated the relationship between polymer surface chemistry

    and
    > : > : physical properties
    > : > : > through controlled surface modification and testing.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1980-1982 Cornell University Ithaca, NY
    > : > : > BA in Chemistry and Biology
    > : > : > Graduated Summa Cum Laude
    > : > : > Distinction in All Subjects
    > : > : > Grade Point: 3.94/4.0
    > : > : > Honors research: isolation and characterization of the subunit of

    CF1
    > : > : enzyme
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1978-1979 Stanford University Palo Alto, CA
    > : > : > Grade Point: 3.55/4.0
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > EXPERIENCE
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1992- present Genzyme Drug Disvcovery and Development Waltham, MA
    > : > : > (bought out GelTex Pharmaceuticals in 2001)
    > : > : > Vice President, Chemical Research 2001-present
    > : > : > Senior Director, Chemical Research 1999-2001
    > : > : > Director of Chemical Research 1997-1999
    > : > : > Manager of Chemical Research 1995-1997
    > : > : > Group Leader 1994-1995
    > : > : > Senior Research Scientist 1992-1994
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Helped start GelTex as second employee
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Managed various research programs with multi-million dollar

    budgets
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Supervised research chemists (17+)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Co-inventor of several polymeric pharmaceuticals and

    pharmaceutical
    > : > : candidates including
    > : > : > Sevelamer Hydrochloride (FDA approved) and Colesevelam

    Hydrochloride
    > : (FDA
    > : > : approved)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Company Safety Officer for 3 years
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Chemical Hygiene Officer 2000-present
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1990-1992 GTE Corporation Waltham, MA
    > : > : > Senior Member of Technical Staff
    > : > : > Applied research involving polymer interfaces
    > : > : > Metallization of plastics
    > : > : > Polymer/polymer adhesion
    > : > : > Optical coatings
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1986-1990 Lord Corporation Cary, NC
    > : > : > Senior Research Scientist 1988-1990
    > : > : > Research Scientist 1986-1988
    > : > : > Basic and applied research on surface chemical bonding
    > : > : > Developed new adhesive compositions
    > : > : > Developed new sol-gel coatings for corrosion resistance
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > HONORS AND AWARDS
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Industrial Innovations Award by Northeast Region of American

    Chemical
    > : > : Society (6/2001)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > National Kidney Foundation of Northern California Honoree (5/2001)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > American Chemical Society/Polymer Chemistry Division Industrial
    > : Sponsors
    > : > : > Award (8/2000)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > R&D 100 Award from R&D magazine (1999)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Sherwin Williams Award in applied polymer science (9/85)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > IBM Predoctoral Fellowship in Polymer Science (1984-1985;

    1985-1986)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Award for highest GPA in Chemistry Department (6/82)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Summa Cum Laude Honors in Chemistry (6/82)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Phi Lamda Epsilon (6/82)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Phi Beta Kappa (2/82)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Cornell University Dean's List (1981, 1982)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Harvard Book Club Award for highest GPA senior year (1978)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > First Place in western NY ACS high school chemistry exam (1977)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1978-1979
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > __________________
    > : > : > Randy Holmes-Farley
    > : > : > Want to talk chemistry? Try the Reef Chemistry Forum at Reef

    Central
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Hobby Experience: 8 years with reefs
    > : > : > Current Tanks: 90 gal mixed reef
    > : > : > Interests: Reefkeeping, science, photography
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley on 10/01/2003 at 07:49 PM
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Open this post in a new window | Report this post to a moderator |

    IP:
    > : > : Logged
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 06/27/2003 02:44 PM
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Randy Holmes-Farley
    > : > : > Chemistry Moderator
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Registered: Apr 2001
    > : > : > Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
    > : > : > Occupation: Chemist (Drug Discovery at Genzyme)
    > : > : > Posts: 15282
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Publications
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > ISSUED UNITED STATES PATENTS
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall;
    > : > : Mandeville, III; W. Harry.
    > : > : > US 6,566,407; 5/20/2003
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 2. Polyether-based bile acid sequestrants. Holmes-Farley, Stephen
    > : Randall;
    > : > : Huval, Chad
    > : > : > Cori.
    > : > : > U.S. 6,517,825; 2/11/2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 3. Method of making phosphate-binding polymers for oral
    > : administration.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : > Stephen R.; Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Whitesides; George M. U.S.
    > : > : 6,509,013; 1/21/2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 4. Combination therapy for treating hypercholesterolemia using a

    bile
    > : acid
    > : > : sequestrant
    > : > : > polymer
    > : > : > and a cholesterol-lowering agent. Huval, Chad Cori; Holmes-Farley,
    > : Stephen
    > : > : Randall;
    > : > : > Petersen, John S.; Dhal, Pradeep K. U.S. 6,433,026; 8/13/2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 5. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with polyallylamine
    > : polymers.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : > Stephen Randall; Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Burke, Steven K.;
    > : Goldberg,
    > : > : Dennis I. , US
    > : > : > 6,423,754; 7/23/2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 6. Ionic polymers as anti-infective agents Mandeville, W. Harry,

    III;
    > : > : Neenan, Thomas X..;
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall;, US 6,395,777; 5/28/2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 7. Combination therapy for treating hypercholesterolemia and
    > : > : atherosclerosis. Huval, Chad
    > : > : > Cori; Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall; Petersen, John S.; Dhal,

    Pradeep
    > : K.
    > : > : U.S. 6,365,186;
    > : > : > 4/2/2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 8. Fat binding polymers. Jozefiak, T.; Holmes-Farley; S. R.;
    > : Mandeville,
    > : > : W. H., III;
    > : > : > Huval; C.
    > : > : > C.; Garigapati, V. R.; Shackett, K. K.; Concagh, D, US 6,299,868;
    > : > : 10/9/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 9. Polymers containing guanidinium groups as bile acid

    sequestrants.
    > : Dhal;
    > : > : P. K.; Holmes-
    > : > : > Farley; S. R.; Petersen; J. S. US 6,294,163; 9/25/2001
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 10. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville,

    W.
    > : H.,
    > : > : III.; US
    > : > : > 6,281,252;
    > : > : > 8/28/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 11. Combination therapy for treating hypercholestrolemia. Huval;

    C.
    > : C.;
    > : > : Holmes-Farley; S.
    > : > : > R. ;
    > : > : > Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K. ; US 6,264,938; 7/24/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 12. Fat-binding polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.; Whitesides, G.

    M.;
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : > : > R.; US
    > : > : > 6,264,937; 7/24/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 13. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with unsubstituted
    > : > : polydiallylamine polymers.
    > : > : > Huval; C. C.; Holmes-Farley; S. R. ; Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K.

    ; US
    > : > : 6,248,318;
    > : > : > 6/19/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 14. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and alkylated
    > : > : compositions therefore.
    > : > : > Mandeville, W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,225,355;

    5/1/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 15. Poly(diallylamine)-based bile acid sequestrants.

    Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : R.;
    > : > : Dhal, P. K.;
    > : > : > Petersen,
    > : > : > J. S.; US 6,203,785; 3/20/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 16. Polyether-Based Bile Acid Sequestrants. Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    > : Huval,
    > : > : C. C.; US
    > : > : > 6,190,649;
    > : > : > 2/20/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 17. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville,

    W.
    > : H.,
    > : > : III.; US
    > : > : > 6,177,478;
    > : > : > 1/23/2001.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 18. Water-insoluble noncrosslinked bile acid sequestrants.
    > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : S. R.;
    > : > : > Mandeville, W.
    > : > : > H., III.; US 6,129,910; 10/10/2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 19. Method for treating hypercholesterolemia with unsubstituted
    > : > : polydiallylamine polymers.
    > : > : > Huval; C. C.; Holmes-Farley; S. R. ; Petersen; J. S.; Dhal; P. K.

    ; US
    > : > : 6,083,497;
    > : > : > 7/4/2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 20. Method of making phosphate-binding polymers for oral
    > : administration.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : > : > R.; Mandeville, W. H., III.; ; Whitesides, G. M. ; US 6,083,495;
    > : 7/4/2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 21. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and alkylated
    > : > : compositions therefore.
    > : > : > Mandeville, W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,066,678;
    > : 5/23/2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 22. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and

    compositions
    > : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    > : > : > W. H.,
    > : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 6,060,517; 5/9/2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 23. Ionic polymers as anti-infective agents. Mandeville, III; W.

    H;
    > : > : Neenan; T. X.; Holmes-
    > : > : > Farley; S. R. US 6,034,129; 3/7/2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 24. Method for reducing oxalate. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville,

    W.
    > : H.,
    > : > : III.; US
    > : > : > 5,985,938;
    > : > : > 11/16/99.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 25. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and

    compositions
    > : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    > : > : > W. H.,
    > : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,981,693; 11/9/99.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 26. Hydrophobic sequestrant for cholesterol depletion. Mandeville,

    W.
    > : H.,
    > : > : III.;
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley;
    > : > : > S. R.; Petersen; J. S.. US 5,969,090; 10/19/99.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 27. Hydrophilic nonamine-containing and amine-containing

    copolymers
    > : and
    > : > : their use as bile
    > : > : > acid sequestrants. Holmes-Farley; S. R.; Petersen; J. S.. US
    > : 5,929,184;
    > : > : 7/27/99.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 28. Interpenetrating polymer networks for sequestration of bile

    acids.
    > : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    > : > : > III.;
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Neenan; T. X.; Whitesides; G. M. US

    5,925,379;
    > : > : 7/20/99.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 29. Amine polymer sequestrant and method of cholesterol depletion.
    > : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    > : > : > III.;
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,919,832; 7/6/99.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 30. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and

    compositions
    > : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    > : > : > W. H.,
    > : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,917,007; 6/29/99.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 31. Polyamine salt hydrophobic sequestrant for cholesterol

    depletion.
    > : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    > : > : > III.;
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; US 5,900,475; 5/4/99.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 32. Process for removing bile salts from a patient and

    compositions
    > : > : therefor. Mandeville,
    > : > : > W. H.,
    > : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,840,766; 11/24/98.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 33. Preparation of polymeric sequestrants for bile acid salts.
    > : Mandeville,
    > : > : W. H., III.;
    > : > : > Holmes-
    > : > : > Farley, S. R.; US 5,703,188; 12/30/97.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 34. Oral administration of iron-binding crosslinked amine

    polymers.
    > : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    > : > : > III.;
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,702,696; 12/30/97.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 35. Alkylated amine polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.;

    Holmes-Farley,
    > : S.
    > : > : R.; US 5,693,675;
    > : > : > 12/2/97.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 36. Method for removing bile salts from a patient with alkylated
    > : > : crosslinked amine
    > : > : > polymers,
    > : > : > and preparation of the polymers. Mandeville, W. H., III.;
    > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : S. R.; US
    > : > : > 5,679,717; 10/21/97.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 37. Phosphate-binding polymers for oral administration.

    Holmes-Farley,
    > : S.
    > : > : R.; Mandeville,
    > : > : > W.
    > : > : > H., III.; US 5,667,775; 9/16/97.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 38. Ion-exchange process using highly crosslinked polymers for
    > : removing
    > : > : bile salts from a
    > : > : > patient, preparation of the polymers, and compositions containing
    > : them.
    > : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    > : > : > III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,624,963; 4/29/97.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 39. Hydrophobic amine polymer sequestrant and method of

    cholesterol
    > : > : depletion. Mandeville,
    > : > : > W. H., III.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; US 5,618,530;
    > : 4/8/97.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 40. Amine polymer sequestrant and method of cholesterol depletion.
    > : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    > : > : > III.;
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; US 5,607,669; 3/4/97.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 41. Phosphate-binding polymers for oral administration.

    Holmes-Farley,
    > : S.
    > : > : R.; Mandeville,
    > : > : > W.
    > : > : > H., III.; US 5,496,545; 3/5/96.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 42. Iron-binding polymers for oral administration. Mandeville, W.

    H.,
    > : > : III.; Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : > S. R.;
    > : > : > US 5,487,888; 1/30/96.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 43. Ultra-thin, uniform sol-gel coating of a substrate having

    active
    > : > : hydrogens on the
    > : > : > surface.
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Yanyo, L. C.; US 5,175,027; 12/29/92.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 44. Layered sol-gel coatings from organisilicon compounds.
    > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : S. R.; Yanyo, L.
    > : > : > C.;
    > : > : > US 5,182,143; 1/26/93.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 45. Method for metal bonding using ultrathin primer coating.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Yanyo,
    > : > : > L.
    > : > : > C.; Thuer, A. M.; US 5,139,601; 8/18/92.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 46. Acrylic adhesive compositions. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Abbey, K.

    J.;
    > : US
    > : > : 5,096,962;
    > : > : > 3/17/92.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 47. Modified halogenatedpolyolefin adhesives for polyolefin
    > : > : elastomer-metal bonding.
    > : > : > Holmes-
    > : > : > Farley, S. R.; US 5,102,956; 4/7/92.
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > PUBLISHED PATENT APPLICATIONS (FOREIGN ISSUED ONLY OR NOT ISSUED)
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1. Aryl boronate functionalized polymers for treating obesity and
    > : > : inhibiting fat uptake.
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, Stephen Randall; Mandeville, Harry W., III; Dhal,
    > : Pradeep
    > : > : K.; Huval, Chad
    > : > : > Cori; Li, Xinhua; Polomoscanik, Steven C. PCT Int. Appl. (2003),

    92
    > : pp. WO
    > : > : 0302571.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 2. Preparation of aryl boronic acids for treating obesity.
    > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : Stephen Randall;
    > : > : > Mandeville, W. Harry, III; Huval, Chad Cori; Li, Xinhua; Dhal,

    Pradeep
    > : K.
    > : > : (Geltex
    > : > : > Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (2003), 62 pp. WO

    0302570.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 3. Fat-binding poly(diethanolaminopropyl)acrylamide.

    Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : Stephen Randall.
    > : > : > (Geltex Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl. (2003), 32 pp.

    WO
    > : > : 0302130.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 4. Method for reducing copper levels and treating copper

    toxicosis.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, Stephen
    > : > : > Randall. (Geltex Pharmaceuticals, Inc., USA). PCT Int. Appl.

    (2002),
    > : 45
    > : > : pp. WO
    > : > : > 0285383.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 5. Method for treating gout and binding uric acid. Holmes-Farley,
    > : Stephen
    > : > : Randall; Burke,
    > : > : > Steven K. WO 0285381 10/31/2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 6. Method for treating gout and reducing serum uric acid.
    > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : Stephen Randall;
    > : > : > Burke, Steven K WO 0285380 10/31/2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 7. Amine condensation polymer bile acid sequestrants. Huval, C.

    C.;
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, S. R.;
    > : > : > Whitesides, G. M. WO 1999-US30469; 7/6/2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 8. Continuous crosslinking of polymer gels. Mandeville, W. H., III

    and
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : > : > R.;
    > : > : > WO 1999-US5662; 9/23/1999.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 9. Amine-containing copolymers as bile acid sequestrants.
    > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : S. R.; Petersen,
    > : > : > J. S.;
    > : > : > WO 9933452; 7/8/1999.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 10. Polydiallylamine-based phosphate binders. Mandeville, W. H.,

    III
    > : and
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : > : > R.;
    > : > : > WO 9922743; 5/14/1999.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 11. Polyallylamine polymers for removing bile salts and treating
    > : > : hypercholesterolemia, and
    > : > : > polymer preparation. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W. H., III;
    > : Burke,
    > : > : S. K.; Goldberg,
    > : > : > D. I.; WO 9857652; 12/23/98.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 12. Phosphate-bidning polymers combined with a calcium supplement

    for
    > : oral
    > : > : administration.
    > : > : > Goldberg, D. I.; Burke, S. K.; Mandeville, W. H., III;

    Holmes-Farley,
    > : S.
    > : > : R.; WO 9842355;
    > : > : > 10/1/98.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 13. Hydrophobic heteroatom-containing sequestrant for cholesterol
    > : > : depletion. Mandeville,
    > : > : > W.
    > : > : > H., III; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Petersen, J. S.; WO 9639449;

    12/12/96.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 14. Process for adjusting ion concentration in a patient and
    > : compositions
    > : > : therefor.
    > : > : > Mandeville,
    > : > : > W. H., III; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; WO 9427619; 12/8/94.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 15. Vacuum-deposited silver on polycarbonate with a chromium
    > : interlayer
    > : > : for improved
    > : > : > metal-
    > : > : > substrate adhesion. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Ger. Offen. 4322512;
    > : 1/20/94.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 16. Process for increased metal-substrate bond strength in

    metalized
    > : > : plastics.
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : > : > R.; Ger. Offen. 4322516; 7/6/93.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 17. Electrorheological fluids and preparation of particles useful

    in
    > : the
    > : > : fluids.
    > : > : > Troughton,
    > : > : > Barritt E., Jr.; Duclos, Theodore G.; Thuer, Anna Marie; Carlson,

    J.
    > : > : David; Bares, Joseph
    > : > : > E.;
    > : > : > Yanyo, Lynn C.; Farley, Stephen Randall Holmes; Acker, Debra Nell.

    EP
    > : > : 394049;
    > : > : > 10/24/1990.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > JOURNAL PUBLICATIONS
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1. Bile acid binding to sevelamer HCl. Braunlin, William; Zhorov,
    > : Eugene;
    > : > : Guo, Amy;
    > : > : > Apruzzese, William; Xu, Qiuwei; Hook, Patrick; Smisek, David L.;
    > : > : Mandeville, W. Harry;
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. Randall. Kidney International (2002), 62(2),
    > : 611-619.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 2. Amine functionalized polyethers as bile acid sequestrants:
    > : synthesis
    > : > : and biological
    > : > : > evaluation. Huval, Chad C.; Bailey, Matthew J.; Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : Randall;
    > : > : Mandeville, W.
    > : > : > Harry; Miller-Gilmore, Karen; Sacchiero, Robert J.; Dhal, Pradeep

    K.
    > : > : Journal of
    > : > : > Macromolecular Science, Pure and Applied Chemistry (2001),

    A38(12),
    > : > : 1559-1574.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 3. Novel Cholesterol Lowering Polymeric Drugs Obtained by

    Molecular
    > : > : Imprinting. Huval,
    > : > : > Chad C.; Bailey, Mathew J.; Braunlin, William H.; Holmes-Farley,

    S.
    > : > : Randall; Mandeville,
    > : > : > W.
    > : > : > Harry; Petersen, John S.; Polomoscanik, Steven C.; Sacchiro,

    Robert
    > : J.;
    > : > : Chen, Xi; Dhal,
    > : > : > Pradeep K. Macromolecules (2001), 34(6), 1548-1550.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 4. Synthetic polymers for the binding of fat in the intestinal

    tract.
    > : > : Jozefiak, Thomas H.;
    > : > : > Mandeville, W. Harry; Holmes-Farley, S. Randy; Arbeeny, Cynthia;
    > : Huval,
    > : > : Chad C.;
    > : > : > Sacchiero, Robert; Concagh, Danny; Yang, Kanwen; Maloney, Cynthia.
    > : > : Abstracts of
    > : > : > Papers, 222nd ACS National Meeting, Chicago, IL, United States,

    August
    > : > : 26-30, 2001
    > : > : > (2001), POLY-047 and Polymer Preprints (American Chemical Society,
    > : > : Division of
    > : > : > Polymer Chemistry) (2001), 42(2), 98.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 5. Colesevelam hydrochloride: Synthesis and testing of a novel

    polymer
    > : gel
    > : > : pharmaceutical.
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R; Mandeville, W. H.; Miller, K. L.; Petersen,

    J.;
    > : Ward,
    > : > : J.; Sacchiero,
    > : > : > B.;
    > : > : > Maloney, C.; Brochu, S.; Rosenbaum, D.; Goldberg, D.; Norton, K.

    A.;
    > : Chen,
    > : > : X.; Mazzeo, J.
    > : > : > R.. Polym. Preprints (2000), 41(1), 735-736.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 6. In vitro comparison of bile acid binding to colesevelam HCl and
    > : other
    > : > : bile acid
    > : > : > sequestrants.
    > : > : > Braunliin, W.; Zhorov, E.; Smisek, D.; Guo, A.; Appruzese, W.; Xu,

    Q.;
    > : > : Hook, P.; Holmes-
    > : > : > Farley, S. R; Mandeville, H. Polym. Preprints (2000), 41(1),

    708-709.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 7. Novel polymeric pharmaceuticals: From startup to market.
    > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : S. R; Polym.
    > : > : > Mater. Sci. Eng (1999), 80, 246-247.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 8. Design and characterization of of Sevelamer Hydrochloride: a

    novel
    > : > : phosphate-binding
    > : > : > pharmaceutical. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mandeville, W. H., III;

    Ward,
    > : J.;
    > : > : Miller, K. L.;
    > : > : > Polym. Mater. Sci. Eng (1998), 79, 280-281 and also in J. M. S.-

    Pure
    > : and
    > : > : Appl. Chem.,
    > : > : > A36(7&8), p. 1085 (1999).
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 9. Three generations of bile acid sequestrants. Mandeville, W. H.,
    > : III;
    > : > : Braunlin, W.;
    > : > : > Dhal, P.;
    > : > : > Guo, A.; Huval, C.; Miller, K. L.; Petersen, J.; Polomascanik, S.;
    > : > : Rosenbaum, D.;
    > : > : > Sacchiero,
    > : > : > R.; Ward, J.; Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Mat. Res. Soc. Symp. Proc.

    (1999),
    > : > : 550, 3-15.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 10. Effect of RenaGel, a non-absorbable, crosslinked, polymeric
    > : phosphate
    > : > : binder, on
    > : > : > urinary
    > : > : > phosphorous excretion in rats. Rosenbaum, D. P.; Holmes-Farley, S.

    R.;
    > : > : Mandeville, W. H.,
    > : > : > III; Pitruzzello, M. .; Goldberg, D. I..; Nephrol., Dial.,

    Transplant.
    > : > : (1997), 12(5)
    > : > : > 961-964.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 11. Thin anisotropic coatings based on sol-gel technology.
    > : Holmes-Farley,
    > : > : S. R.; Yanyo, L.
    > : > : > C;
    > : > : > Mater. Res. Soc. Symp. Proc. (1990), 180 (Better Ceram. Chem. 4),
    > : 439-444.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 12. The mechanism of cure initiation of a surface activated

    adhesive.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : > : > R.;
    > : > : > Minichelli, J. L.; J. Adhes. Sci. Technol. (1991), 5(5), 409-420.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 13. Adhesion promotion and corrosion prevention using thin

    anisotropic
    > : > : coatings. Holmes-
    > : > : > Farley, S. R.; Yanyo, L. C.; J. Adhes. Sci. Technol. (1991), 5(2),
    > : > : 131-151.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 14. Wetting of functionalized polyethylene having ionizable

    organic
    > : acids
    > : > : and bases at the
    > : > : > polymer-water interface: relations between functional group

    polarity,
    > : > : extent of
    > : > : > ionization,
    > : > : > and contact angle with water. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Bain, C. D.;
    > : > : Whitesides, G. M.;
    > : > : > Langmuir
    > : > : > (1988), 4(4), 921-937.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 15. Binding of phenols to aluminum oxide surfaces. 1. Phenols with

    a
    > : > : single hydroxy group.
    > : > : > Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Langmuir (1988), 4(3), 766-774.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 16. Reconstruction of the interface of oxidatively functionalized
    > : > : polyethylene (PE-CO2H)
    > : > : > and
    > : > : > derivatives on heating. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Reamey, R. H.;

    Nuzzo,
    > : R.;
    > : > : McCarthy, T. J.;
    > : > : > Whitesides, G. M.; Langmuir (1987), 3(5), 799-815. See also Report
    > : (1987),
    > : > : AD-
    > : > : > A179590/5/GAR, Gov. Rep. Announce. Index (U. S.) 1987, 87(15).
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 17. Surface-modified polyethylene film: the relationship between
    > : surface
    > : > : chemistry and
    > : > : > physical
    > : > : > properties. Holmes-Farley, S. R; Diss. Abstr. Int. B 1987, 47(11),
    > : 4537.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 18. Reactivity of carboxylic acid and ester groups in the
    > : functionalized
    > : > : interfacial
    > : > : > region of
    > : > : > "polyethylene carboxylic acid" (PE-CO2H) and its derivatives:
    > : > : differentiation of the
    > : > : > functional groups into shallow and deep subsets based on a

    comparison
    > : of
    > : > : contact angle and
    > : > : > ATR-IR measurements. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Whitesides, G. M.;

    Langmuir
    > : > : (1987), 3(1), 62-
    > : > : > 76.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 19. Fluorescence properties of dansyl groups covalently bonded tot

    he
    > : > : surface of
    > : > : > oxidatively
    > : > : > functionalized low-density polyethylene film. Holmes-Farley, S.

    R.;
    > : > : Whitesides, G. M.;
    > : > : > Langmuir (1986), 2(3), 266-281. See also Report (1985), TR-85-2;
    > : > : AD-A162435/2/GAR,
    > : > : > Gov. Rep. Announce. Index (U. S.) 1986, 86(7).
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 20. Acid-base behavior of carboxylic acid groups covalently

    attached
    > : at
    > : > : the surface of
    > : > : > polyethylene: The usefulness of contact angle in following the
    > : ionization
    > : > : of surface
    > : > : > functionality. Holmes-Farley, S. R.; Reamey, R. H.; McCarthy, T.

    J.;
    > : > : Deutch, J.;
    > : > : > Whitesides,
    > : > : > G. M.; Langmuir (1985), 1(6), 725-740.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 21. The thermal stability of a surface modified solid organic

    polymer.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, S.
    > : > : > R.;
    > : > : > Whitesides, G. M.; Polym. Mater. Sci. Eng. (1985), 53, 127-131.
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > CORAL REEF AQUARIA CHEMISTRY PUBLICATIONS (ON LINE)
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 1. The Seachem Borate Alkalinity Test Kit. Holmes-Farley, R.

    Advanced
    > : > : Aquarist. June 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 2. The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser). Holmes-Farley,

    R.
    > : > : Advanced Aquarist.
    > : > : > May
    > : > : > 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 3. The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air.

    Holmes-Farley, R.
    > : > : Reefkeeping May
    > : > : > 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 4. Reef Aquaria with Low Soluble Metals. Holmes-Farley, R.

    Reefkeeping
    > : > : April 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 5. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part II Effects on Macroalgae Growth.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    > : > : > Advanced Aquarist; April 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 6. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part II Effects on Macroalgae Growth.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    > : > : > Advanced Aquarist; April 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 7. Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced
    > : Aquarist;
    > : > : March 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 8. How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    > : > : > Advanced Aquarist; February 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 9. Silica in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist;

    January
    > : > : 2003.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 10. Boron in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist;
    > : December
    > : > : 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 11. Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems. Holmes-Farley, R.
    > : Advanced
    > : > : Aquarist; November
    > : > : > 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 12. Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae.

    Holmes-Farley, R.
    > : > : Advanced Aquarist;
    > : > : > November 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 13. Phosphorus: Algae's Best Friend. Holmes-Farley, R.; Advanced
    > : Aquarist,
    > : > : September 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 14. Iron in a Reef Tank. Holmes-Farley, R.; Advanced Aquarist,

    August
    > : > : 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 15. Calcium and Alkalinity. Holmes-Farley, R.; Reefkeeping.com,

    April
    > : > : 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 16. Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced
    > : > : Aquarist; July 2002
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 17. Solutions to pH Problems. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist;
    > : June
    > : > : 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 18. The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH. Holmes-Farley, R.
    > : Advanced
    > : > : Aquarist, May
    > : > : > 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 19. The Chemical & Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification in

    Corals.
    > : > : Holmes-Farley, R.
    > : > : > Advanced Aquarist, April 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 20. Calcium. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist; March 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 21. Alkalinity. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist; February

    2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 22. Specific Gravity. Holmes-Farley, R. Advanced Aquarist, January
    > : 2002.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 23. The Complete Nitrogen Cycle. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium

    Frontiers
    > : > : 2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 24. Magnesium: Calcium's little sister. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium
    > : > : Frontiers 2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 25. Phosphate..What is it and why should you care. Holmes-Farley,

    R.
    > : > : Aquarium Frontiers
    > : > : > 2000.
    > : > : > 26. Carbon Dioxide: Friend or Foe . Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium
    > : Frontiers
    > : > : 2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 27. Using Conductivity To Measure Salinity, R. Aquarium Frontiers
    > : 2000.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 28. Understanding Seawater. Holmes-Farley, R. Aquarium Frontiers

    1999.
    > : > : >
    > : > : > 29. Protein Skimming: How it Works. Fishnet Library 1998.
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Boomer
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    > : > : > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    > : > : >
    > : > : > Want to See More ?
    > : > : > Please Join Our Growing Membership
    > : > : > www.coralrealm.com
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > : >
    > : > :
    > : > :
    > : >
    > : >
    > :
    > :
    > :
    >
    >
     
    stoutman, Feb 12, 2004
    #80
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