alternative to aragonite sand

Discussion in 'Reef Fishes' started by Marx, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. Marx

    Marx Guest

    Hello
    I would like to make a DSB.
    But it's near impossible to buy fine aragonite sand here in Poland.
    Any idea which medium can I use instead?
    As I read coraline sand (available) isn't good for that.
    Any idea?
     
    Marx, Aug 22, 2003
    #1
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  2. Marx

    Pszemol Guest

    "Marx" <mnazarko@nospam.bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:bi4o14$d1l$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
    > I would like to make a DSB.


    Good idea :)

    > But it's near impossible to buy fine aragonite sand here in Poland.


    Witaj rodaku! :)

    > Any idea which medium can I use instead?
    > As I read coraline sand (available) isn't good for that.


    What "coraline sand" did you read about? It sounds good to me...
    Coraline sounds like coralline, derivative from coral skeletons.
     
    Pszemol, Aug 22, 2003
    #2
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  3. > Hello
    > I would like to make a DSB.
    > But it's near impossible to buy fine aragonite sand here in Poland.
    > Any idea which medium can I use instead?
    > As I read coraline sand (available) isn't good for that.
    > Any idea?
    >
    >

    try looking for silica based sand, itll do too. there are some effects you wont get, try a
    hand full of CC somewhere in sump/canister filter .... and you will get most of it back,
    aragonite will help buffer the water, cc will do it also, silica based sand wont, LR will
    so you can ballance the lack of aragonite sand with other things.

    --
    Richard Reynolds
    Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
     
    Richard Reynolds, Aug 22, 2003
    #3
  4. Marx

    Marx Guest

    > Witaj rodaku! :)
    pisalem na priv ale zero odzewu :(

    > > Any idea which medium can I use instead?
    > > As I read coraline sand (available) isn't good for that.

    >
    > What "coraline sand" did you read about? It sounds good to me...
    > Coraline sounds like coralline, derivative from coral skeletons.


    aragonite dissolves better then coraline, and has better shape (not sharp)
     
    Marx, Aug 25, 2003
    #4
  5. Marx

    Marx Guest

    > try looking for silica based sand, itll do too. there are some effects you
    wont get, try a
    > hand full of CC somewhere in sump/canister filter .... and you will get

    most of it back,
    > aragonite will help buffer the water, cc will do it also, silica based

    sand wont, LR will
    > so you can ballance the lack of aragonite sand with other things.

    what's CC?
    i'am afraid of silica sand, it can dissolve silica causing algae grow. Also
    it doesn't act as buffer.
    Coraline sand seems better but doesn't dissolve as easy as aragonite.

    What size should be DSB? I would like to divide my aquarium - 1/3 DSB and
    2/3 - visible part with live rock and corals (without substrate). Is it
    enough? There will be no sump at all.
     
    Marx, Aug 25, 2003
    #5
  6. Marx

    Boomer Guest

    "aragonite dissolves better then coraline, and has better shape (not sharp)"

    Coraline Sand is aragonite, it is a misused term taken from the name coralline algae and
    it is also called Coralline Sand. It is just aragonite in a non-oolitic form. Oolitic
    sand has a specific geologic setting, formation and origin, which is different than round
    coral or oyster shells sands (Coraline), which have no oolitic structure. It dissolves
    better only because of its mineralogical structure is different. 99.9 % of all the calcium
    carbonate sands you see on marine beaches are aragonite, as it is aragonite that marine
    invert produce, e.g shells, coral, coralline algae etc.. Even oolitic sand is believed to
    be biogenic.........some how........they are not sure yet...may be bacteria



    --
    Boomer

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    "Marx" <mnazarko@nospam.bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    news:bic9rp$7nh$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl...
    : > Witaj rodaku! :)
    : pisalem na priv ale zero odzewu :(
    :
    : > > Any idea which medium can I use instead?
    : > > As I read coraline sand (available) isn't good for that.
    : >
    : > What "coraline sand" did you read about? It sounds good to me...
    : > Coraline sounds like coralline, derivative from coral skeletons.
    :
    : aragonite dissolves better then coraline, and has better shape (not sharp)
    :
    :
     
    Boomer, Aug 25, 2003
    #6
  7. Marx

    Pszemol Guest

    "Marx" <mnazarko@nospam.bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:bic9rp$7nh$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl...
    > > Witaj rodaku! :)

    > pisalem na priv ale zero odzewu :(


    Send thanks for that to your e-mail server administrator:

    The original message was received at Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:18:17 -0400 EST
    from hotmail.com [65.54.244.88]

    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
    <marx@kopernik.gliwice.pl>

    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
    >>> Connecting

    <<< 553 Your site is blocked due to previous spamming incidents

    I have sent you 2nd e-mail from a different account and I did not
    get any error returns - I hope it went through.

    > > > Any idea which medium can I use instead?
    > > > As I read coraline sand (available) isn't good for that.

    > >
    > > What "coraline sand" did you read about? It sounds good to me...
    > > Coraline sounds like coralline, derivative from coral skeletons.

    >
    > aragonite dissolves better then coraline, and has better shape (not sharp)


    Could you indicate a manufacturer of "coraline sand" you refer to?
    I am confused since coral skeletons are made of aragonite, not calcite.
    So I would guess you call calcite sand "coraline" but I am not sure.
     
    Pszemol, Aug 25, 2003
    #7
  8. Marx

    Pszemol Guest

    "Marx" <mnazarko@nospam.bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:bica3h$8nb$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl...
    > i'am afraid of silica sand, it can dissolve silica causing algae grow.


    You glass is made from silica sand, so unless you have acrilic
    tank you would have similar problem with dissolved silica.

    > What size should be DSB? I would like to divide my aquarium - 1/3 DSB and
    > 2/3 - visible part with live rock and corals (without substrate). Is it
    > enough?


    Some people here criticize DSB - check other threads.
    I was going to make DSB but now I am little confused.
    Think about the look of the tank - 1/3 of hight as a DSB
    seems a little too much. If you have 18" high tank it
    would make 6" of sand... DSB I heard of here have 3-4".
     
    Pszemol, Aug 25, 2003
    #8
  9. Marx

    CJK Guest

    look at the e-mail address, there is a comma after wasko instead of a period

    Christian


    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:bida8u.3fs.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    > It bounced off again, sorry. Right now the only way I can communicate
    > with you Marx is with this forum. Do something with your e-mail,
    > if you want me to write you dirrectly. This is bounced off message:
    >
    > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at zilweb.tdci.pl.
    > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following

    addresses.
    > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
    >
    > <m.nazarko@wasko,pl>:
    > 193.178.240.3 does not like recipient.
    > Remote host said: 553 sorry, your envelope sender is in my badmailfrom
    > list (#5.7.1)
    > Giving up on 193.178.240.3.
    >
     
    CJK, Aug 25, 2003
    #9
  10. Marx

    Pszemol Guest

    "CJK" <parrot0000@kentling.net> wrote in message news:Bsu2b.85968$Ij4.73687@news2.central.cox.net...
    > look at the e-mail address, there is a comma after wasko instead of a period


    This is the response from the server - I modified this comma
    to protect Marx from spammers. Sorry if that confused you...
    I hoped Marx would get the message and understand it.
    I should probably mention the change - sorry.

    The thing is, in Europe people suffer a lot from US spammers.
    Some network administrators are taking shortcuts to solve
    the issue by blocking the whole popular domains like hotmail,
    aol or yahoo. The most popular used by spammers.
    It is very efficient because you do not get so much spam
    after all, but you do not get solicited e-mails from these
    locations either. I think Marx suffered from this now asking
    me some questions using e-mail and I do not have a way to reply.

    My advice for Marx - if you just started your adventure with
    foreign newsgroups and you are starting to make "e-mail friends"
    you may want to apply for some e-mail account on yahoo/hotmail
    servers and use it to communicate with people outside of your
    country. You will not have to convince your network administrator
    to learn new tricks in his constant battle with US spammers.
     
    Pszemol, Aug 25, 2003
    #10
  11. Marx

    CJK Guest

    ahh ha, I did not even think of that, I just assumed I was not the only one
    with fat fingers :)

    been there, done that :)

    Christian
    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:bidbcd.3cs.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    > "CJK" <parrot0000@kentling.net> wrote in message

    news:Bsu2b.85968$Ij4.73687@news2.central.cox.net...
    > > look at the e-mail address, there is a comma after wasko instead of a

    period
    >
    > This is the response from the server - I modified this comma
    > to protect Marx from spammers. Sorry if that confused you...
    > I hoped Marx would get the message and understand it.
    > I should probably mention the change - sorry.
    >
    > The thing is, in Europe people suffer a lot from US spammers.
    > Some network administrators are taking shortcuts to solve
    > the issue by blocking the whole popular domains like hotmail,
    > aol or yahoo. The most popular used by spammers.
    > It is very efficient because you do not get so much spam
    > after all, but you do not get solicited e-mails from these
    > locations either. I think Marx suffered from this now asking
    > me some questions using e-mail and I do not have a way to reply.
    >
    > My advice for Marx - if you just started your adventure with
    > foreign newsgroups and you are starting to make "e-mail friends"
    > you may want to apply for some e-mail account on yahoo/hotmail
    > servers and use it to communicate with people outside of your
    > country. You will not have to convince your network administrator
    > to learn new tricks in his constant battle with US spammers.
     
    CJK, Aug 25, 2003
    #11
  12. Marx

    Marx Guest

    > Coraline Sand is aragonite,
    so why it looks different?
    Coraline sand (made from crushed corals) is near white, aragonite seems
    to be more yellow
    Here is aragonite i'm telling about:
    http://sklep.rafa.pl/shop.php/act/spi/pid/e4e1cbea4555e7a9eae99cd50096d63c
    Here is an article saying what i mean:
    http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
    Aragonite isn't the same as sand made from crushed corals-am i wrong?

    > coral or oyster shells sands (Coraline), which have no oolitic
    > structure. It dissolves
    > better

    so it's the main difference from aquarist's point of view

    > 99.9 % of all the calcium
    > carbonate sands you see on marine beaches are aragonite, as it is
    > aragonite that marine
    > invert produce, e.g shells, coral, coralline algae etc..

    i can't see because Poland has no Ocean, and our sea has silica sand ;)
     
    Marx, Aug 26, 2003
    #12
  13. Marx

    Marx Guest

    I see it's problem - both emails has spam protection administered beyond me
    I used bigfoot but now i know why it doesn't work anymore for me - blocked
    too

    Worse I can write to this newsgroup only from work - at home news server
    blocks mails from my domain and there is no another server to use :(

    Pszemol, i write to you when i open mailbox abroad - can you advice a free
    and spam free server?
     
    Marx, Aug 26, 2003
    #13
  14. Marx

    Marx Guest

    > > i'am afraid of silica sand, it can dissolve silica causing algae grow.
    > You glass is made from silica sand, so unless you have acrilic
    > tank you would have similar problem with dissolved silica.

    sand has much bigger surface - can you show me an article saying it will not
    happen?
    I'm sure it happens because in my sweet water aquarium sand caused diatom
    grow

    > Some people here criticize DSB - check other threads.
    > I was going to make DSB but now I am little confused.

    Critics goes from not doing it properly (ie not using proper sand, or proper
    height)

    > Think about the look of the tank - 1/3 of hight as a DSB
    > seems a little too much. If you have 18" high tank it
    > would make 6" of sand... DSB I heard of here have 3-4".

    My aquarium is only 10" heigh - so i dived it and 1/3 of it will be "sump"
    with DSB, and the rest will be with empty bottom, live rock and corals.
    I don't know if sump with surface 1/3 of main tank is enough to make DSB
    working?
     
    Marx, Aug 26, 2003
    #14
  15. > > > i'am afraid of silica sand, it can dissolve silica causing algae grow.
    > > You glass is made from silica sand, so unless you have acrilic
    > > tank you would have similar problem with dissolved silica.

    > sand has much bigger surface - can you show me an article saying it will not
    > happen?
    > I'm sure it happens because in my sweet water aquarium sand caused diatom
    > grow


    first off thats been documented, i dont recall at this instant, but its a ph thing, NSW
    and ASW is either too high or too low to disolve silica sand, AND diadom blooms are a
    natural occurance in new tanks even with no silica from the sand, it goes away on its own,
    generally doesnt last long .... some of us even get silicates from our tap water :)

    > > Some people here criticize DSB - check other threads.
    > > I was going to make DSB but now I am little confused.

    > Critics goes from not doing it properly (ie not using proper sand, or proper
    > height)


    while the jurry is still out, this like many things in this hobby, may come and go,
    currently its advised to use one.

    there are a few ppl including an expert normally advising for DSB use, that have said that
    DSB's could be bad, not from a setup, but from things like capturing of heavy metals, and
    such, things that you cant currently control

    > > Think about the look of the tank - 1/3 of hight as a DSB
    > > seems a little too much. If you have 18" high tank it
    > > would make 6" of sand... DSB I heard of here have 3-4".

    > My aquarium is only 10" heigh - so i dived it and 1/3 of it will be "sump"
    > with DSB, and the rest will be with empty bottom, live rock and corals.
    > I don't know if sump with surface 1/3 of main tank is enough to make DSB
    > working?


    it can be. I am not going back thru the posts, but it will depend on bio load, size of
    tank, how healthy your DSB is .....

    --
    Richard Reynolds
    Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
     
    Richard Reynolds, Aug 26, 2003
    #15
  16. Marx

    Marx Guest

    > first off thats been documented, i dont recall at this instant, but its a
    ph thing, NSW
    (...)
    ok, i can belive silica sand will not make problem, But it doesn't help much
    with water parameters so better would be sand from crushed coral, and the
    best - aragonite? Am i right?

    > there are a few ppl including an expert normally advising for DSB use,

    that have said that
    > DSB's could be bad, not from a setup, but from things like capturing of

    heavy metals, and
    > such, things that you cant currently control

    i read many posts and articles about DSB and decided to do it
    Here in Poland nobody belive this method ;) so I must call for help here

    I have one question - why fine sand doesn't flow all over the tank, when
    there are many pumps?
     
    Marx, Aug 26, 2003
    #16
  17. Marx

    SG Guest

    In article <bieta9$djt$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>, Marx wrote:
    >> Coraline Sand is aragonite,

    > so why it looks different?


    Different impurities.

    > Coraline sand (made from crushed corals) is near white, aragonite seems
    > to be more yellow


    Boomer knows his stuff. Aragonite is Calcium Carbonate. Shells,
    corals, coraline sand are all made largely of Aragonite. Many people
    confuse Aragonite to mean "Oolic Aragonite Sand."
     
    SG, Aug 26, 2003
    #17
  18. Marx

    Marx Guest

    > Boomer knows his stuff. Aragonite is Calcium Carbonate. Shells,
    > corals, coraline sand are all made largely of Aragonite. Many people
    > confuse Aragonite to mean "Oolic Aragonite Sand."


    So sand form crushed coral _is_ aragonite? Is this the same sand as called
    "live sand" (without bacteria etc of course)?

    Is something i understand wrong from:
    http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
    "Compositionally, any substrate you choose is almost certain to be made of
    aragonite or calcite. Both are forms of calcium carbonate, but arguably
    aragonite is to be favored for it's better solubility and buffering capacity
    in seawater (providing necessary bio-minerals, buffering pH, and supporting
    calcification). Aragonite can begin to dissolve, in fact, at a high pH over
    8.0 (a still safe level for marine life), while calcite does not readily
    dissolve until the pH falls well below 8.0. This means that calcite is not
    likely to impart any significant benefits (buffers/alkalinity) into the
    water until the pH falls to a level that is too dangerous for most marine
    life. In this regard, the old argument of dolomite & crushed coral versus
    non-calcareous freshwater "gravel" for marine aquariums in the early days
    was a moot point (they were all calcite). "

    Ps. Please excuse my poor english, it's not my native language and it may be
    reason i don't understand exactly what you mean
     
    Marx, Aug 26, 2003
    #18
  19. Marx

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vkmqs54kaipfa7@corp.supernews.com...
    > That article doesn't even mention Coraline Sand and this is nonsense;
    >
    > "Aragonite can begin to dissolve, in fact, at a high pH over 8.0 (a still safe level for
    > marine life), while calcite does not readily dissolve until the pH falls well below 8.0.
    > This means that calcite is not likely to impart any significant benefits
    > (buffers/alkalinity) into the water until the pH falls to a level that is too dangerous
    > for most marine life. In this regard, the old argument of dolomite & crushed coral versus
    > non-calcareous freshwater "gravel" for marine aquariums in the early days was a moot point
    > (they were all calcite). "


    I have also found the story about pH level for dissolving aragonite/calcite to be different.
    If it is a nonsense, what is the true behind aragonite being better for reef then calcite?
    Please explain...
     
    Pszemol, Aug 26, 2003
    #19
  20. Marx

    Pszemol Guest

    "Marx" <mnazarko@nospam.bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:bieth4$edk$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl...
    > Pszemol, i write to you when i open mailbox abroad
    > - can you advice a free and spam free server?


    Stop dreaming! :))
    There is no such thing as spam free server on this Planet :))

    And spam is generated both ways: small part by the free server
    sponsors (this can be eliminated by switching from free e-mail to
    a commercial one and pay $$) and by the most part by mass mailing
    to addresses collected everywhere they are listed in the net...
    It is enough you use your e-mail address ONCE in some online
    store which sells their custommer list to others or you use
    it on the newsgroups or online chat/meeting place or any other
    place you give e-mail - you will get spam. It is only a matter
    of time and it will grow in number. After some time of using
    the same e-mail address in those places you will have 20 different
    offers for debt refinancing, viagra and breast enhancement per day,
    even if you are a guy and do not have any breasts to enhance :))

    So my advice - instead to waste your time to look for a mystery
    "spam free server" make your new account on any free server
    and use it ONLY for "spam", which is newsgroups, online purchases
    etc... You will check it occasionaly and you have to expect it
    will be full of spam. There is nothing you can do about except
    not having e-mail at all and move to some cave in the mountains ;-)
    Use your other e-mail address only for private corespondence with
    friends and ask them to not send you any greeting cards to that
    address too - Greeting Cards services are the best e-mail
    collectors as well - I got ONE greeting card in Spanish from my
    friend in Peru and suddenly, after a couple days I got 5 e-mails
    per day offering some services in Spanish - I have never had these.
    This e-mail address is already trashed by spammers.
    And the worst you can ever do: never respond to the spam by asking
    to remove you from the list. It is big BS. It is actually adding
    your e-mail address to even more spam by doing that.
     
    Pszemol, Aug 26, 2003
    #20
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