Another Health Care debate but one pic is worth a thousand words

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by sen5241b, Mar 12, 2010.

  1. sen5241b

    sen5241b

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    sen5241b, Mar 12, 2010
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  2. sen5241b

    dcantucson

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    The Japanese seem to have gotten it together.
     
    dcantucson, Mar 12, 2010
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  3. sen5241b

    tankedchemist

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    yeah.... and I can only fantasize paying ~$2000/year in healthcare....
     
    tankedchemist, Mar 12, 2010
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  4. sen5241b

    Cathic Fish Wrangler

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    This really does not do much for the debate, insurance companies turnover is large yes, but the industry is large, If I made $100 a year, and earned the profit that insurance companies do I would bank roughly $3. Hmm, maybe when we scale that to the industry size we see where the massive numbers come from. Another point, life expectancy rate is a personal issue, you think insurance companies control how long we live? How about people control that on an individual level, if I live to be 90 I promise it wasn't my insurance companies doing. I purchase insurance should something happen to me, I do not need it, allowing the government to mandate insurance companies into bad business policies is a disgusting, shameful, abuse of power and spits on what are forefathers fought for in the past. The freedom to eat and drink and smoke anything and everything I want is my choice and freedom promised and provided to me. Health Insurance is a private industry in a free market it is a good a service, and NEVER have I seen it listed as something that is promised or that should be provided.
     
    Cathic, Mar 12, 2010
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  5. sen5241b

    tankedchemist

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    so, uhm... then what's medicare and medicaid? Isn't that insurance promised to people who can't afford to buy it on their own?
     
    tankedchemist, Mar 12, 2010
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  6. sen5241b

    Cathic Fish Wrangler

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    Yes it is, and it's disgusting, with some of the highest amounts of corruption, fraud, and waste. Still, people want to continue to expand these programs? I do not understand, if people want cost down, then states need to deregulate the Insurance companies, for cross state purchasing, you will see rates sky rocket down.
     
    Cathic, Mar 12, 2010
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  7. sen5241b

    PRC Stop Quoting Me!

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    PRC, Mar 12, 2010
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  8. sen5241b

    PRC Stop Quoting Me!

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    Yeah, because the deregulation of the banking system went over like gangbusters!!!

    When have insurance premiums ever went down? Insurance companies have an oligopoly on the healthcare in the U.S. There are only a few major players left in the game. there premiums are more or less in line with each other...Premiums will not go down.

    Here's some reading for you.

    In a letter to the Department of Justice’s Anti-Trust Division, Richard Kirsch, HCAN national campaign manager, and David Balto, former policy director of the Federal Trade Commission and now senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, write:
    Simply put, the private insurance companies have secured monopolies or tight oligopolies and exercised that power to put profits ahead of patients….There were no actions taken against anticompetitive conduct by health insurers in the last administration, in spite of the fact that cases by state attorneys general have secured massive fines against these insurers. A lack of antitrust enforcement has enabled insurers to acquire dominant positions in almost every metropolitan market.
    They ask for an investigation of the already consummated mergers that “harm competition or create an anticompetitive market structure.” They also urge the Justice Department to conduct investigations of “anticompetitive conduct by dominant insurance companies and challenge that conduct where appropriate.”
    Many dominant insurers limit the ability of providers to choose rival insurers or inform patients about more efficient and comprehensive coverage. The DOJ should investigate tools used to stifle competition such as physician gag clauses, most favored nations provisions, all-products clauses, and silent networks, which prevent providers and consumers from having the full range of competitive alternatives
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
    PRC, Mar 12, 2010
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  9. sen5241b

    tankedchemist

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    Ok wait. You say you've never seen it listed as promised. Then I say, isn't it promised if you can't afford it... then you say "yes, but..."

    Not trying to be offensive, I just can't handle people disagreeing with their own argument. Besides that, though, you're in favor of private insurance companies being less regulated, when they have much greater "waste" than public health systems? Statistics: CAHI's claim of Medicare's hidden administrative costs | Physicians for a National Health Program Summary: medicare's overhead (claims paid out vs admin cost) is about 5% at the LEAST conservative number. Private insurance is about 17% at the middle-of-the-road conservative level, and more like 25% according to less conservative estimates. SO, howis it that these private companies are more efficient in your mind? I'm confused.
     
    tankedchemist, Mar 12, 2010
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  10. sen5241b

    Navarchus Almost smarter than a pig

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    A few questions about that chart:

    (1) Does that chart count the money people from other countries spend when then are treated in the US? For example, if a Canadian comes to the USA for his treatment and spends $100,000, does that 100k get added to the amount spent on US healhcare or Canadian healthcare?

    (2) Does "per capita" count people who are living in USA or who are citizens of USA?

    (3) Does the graph count the amount of taxes spent on healthcare?

    (4) Dose the graph include cosmetic healhcare, or "necessary" healtcare.

    My guess is that they take the total amount spent on healthcare (inluding the foreigners who are treated here), and then divide it by the number of people in USA (excluding non-citzens), thus reducing the amount spent if forign countries, and increasing the amoung spent in USA. Then they do not include the amount of tax dollars being spent by other countries on healthcare toward the total expense.

    Buy that's just a guess.

    In any event, if the government took over healthcare entirely, would you want to live in a country that spent more or less on healthcare.
     
    Navarchus, Mar 12, 2010
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  11. sen5241b

    PRC Stop Quoting Me!

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    I'll show you where it's listed. It's called the Declaration of Independence.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are LIFE, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
     
    PRC, Mar 12, 2010
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  12. sen5241b

    SeaBee Ha Ha Thats Funny!

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    They should make it fair and post the income tax levels in each country as well. You pay either here or there, but you will pay...
     
    SeaBee, Mar 12, 2010
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  13. sen5241b

    Cathic Fish Wrangler

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    Im saying that Constitutionally Health care is not a given I disagree with people expecting to be a provided service. It's not, meaning that I disagree with things medicare and medicaid and the exponential cost and growth associated with them. The exact thing will happen with any government option, only there will be no competition because there will be no need to compete in a market where the government can set prices where they want them, this will raise taxes but eliminate private health insurance companies, which is better? I'll take lower taxes. I do not disagree with reforming healthcare, can we do something to bring cost down, sure, can we also make it where healthcare service is "better" probably. Though America is probably the best place to receive any treatment, I'd like to pay lower cost but im fine with what I have, what options proposed right now will make me happy?
     
    Cathic, Mar 12, 2010
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  14. sen5241b

    Cathic Fish Wrangler

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    PRC, LIFE does not entail medical cost, stated, you have a right to live, be free, and pursue happiness, living does not mean you get health SERVICES, it states you have a right to exist and be free and be happy,
     
    Cathic, Mar 13, 2010
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  15. sen5241b

    fastrd400 It wasn't me! Moderator

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    Exactly what is the problem with Medicare and Medicade?
     
    fastrd400, Mar 13, 2010
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  16. sen5241b

    PRC Stop Quoting Me!

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    So if I have the right to live, then when needed shouldn't I be able to get medical care so that I can maintain my life?, and if I am going to be free, can't it be free from virus, diease and any other harm, and without the first two how can I ever pursue happiness.

    And again, you didn't answer my question. If you're so against any type of government involvement in your life and healthcare, would you be willing to write a letter to Washingotn D.C stating that you do not want your Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid benefits? Again, I will draft the letter for you.
     
    PRC, Mar 13, 2010
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  17. sen5241b

    cthegame

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    cant the same argument be made about fire fighters & police?
     
    cthegame, Mar 13, 2010
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  18. sen5241b

    PRC Stop Quoting Me!

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    You're provided services by the government all the time. Schools, Roads, Parks, I could go on and on. If you want government out of your life stay off the roads, pull your kids out of schools, and don't drive on the roads.

    You're obviously a very healthy person and probably have employer covered health insurance, and probably don't know anybody who gets a $1200 Social Security check and pays $800 per month for heart medication. Truly, I hope you stay healthy.

    Cathic, hopefully we can agree to disagree but your argument is flawed. You continue to look at the Healtchcare debate as an attack on a free market, profits and loss, and high or low taxes.

    I choose to look at it as the health and welfare of a fellow human being. Until you can look at the actual "health" part of the healthcare debate, there isn't really much to talk about.
     
    PRC, Mar 13, 2010
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  19. sen5241b

    Cathic Fish Wrangler

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    Sure, but these services are provided locally by governments, state, city, etc. The central government is not responsible for it, which is why the government is also not responsible for national health care. Alternatively if police officers, or fire fighters, were cut from salary and disappeared, the private sector would quickly fill these positions, such is the case of private security businesses, much like the government use to use pinkerton protection services as secret service security, until the government created the secret service.
     
    Cathic, Mar 13, 2010
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  20. sen5241b

    fastrd400 It wasn't me! Moderator

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    Probably not the best example to use for your argument.
     
    fastrd400, Mar 13, 2010
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