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Dosing with copper questions!

Discussion in 'Fish Disease' started by chuck78, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. chuck78

    chuck78 The Reefanatic

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    If copper kills your bio-filters (sand & rock), how do you avoid ammonia & nitrite spikes while treating a sick fish? Can someone who has done this before please explain the correct way to go about setting up & maintaining a tank that has fish being treated with copper?
     
    chuck78, Mar 22, 2012
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  2. chuck78

    Northstar24 The Tang Herder

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    I am guessing you would need to do small water changes every day, and adjust the copper dose accordingly to keep the copper level stable

    Is this for your Achilles?
     
    Northstar24, Mar 22, 2012
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  3. chuck78

    chuck78 The Reefanatic

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    My yellow & sailfin tangs bullied the achilles for the1st 2 days...after that they left him alone and it showed signs of ich. Everyones going to quarantine for 2.5 months now!!!
     
    chuck78, Mar 22, 2012
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  4. chuck78

    Northstar24 The Tang Herder

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    Achilles are like the powders - they are more prone to ich than most tangs. Once established though - that Achilles will be boss fish. Mine has established his dominence of the tank and everyone pretty much stays out of his way now - except the Naso - he is the only one that will flare up and flash him now
     
    Northstar24, Mar 22, 2012
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  5. chuck78

    chuck78 The Reefanatic

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    Did yours get any ich @ 1st?
     
    chuck78, Mar 22, 2012
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  6. chuck78

    Smitty

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    I don't think it kills all the bio-filtration bacteria Chuck. It just kills all the bio-diverse life...especially off you keep it within the acceptable ranges. I ran a 125 gal FO tank for about two years with copper, with no issues. And only did water changes bi-weekly. So there will still be bacteria in the water(rocks, sand) for the tank to survive.
     
    Smitty, Mar 22, 2012
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  7. chuck78

    Northstar24 The Tang Herder

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    Yes, my Achilles showed signs of ich. There are still some days where I see a spot or tow, but he eats well so I have never really been worried about it
     
    Northstar24, Mar 22, 2012
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  8. chuck78

    chuck78 The Reefanatic

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    I just dont want ich living in my system PERIOD!!! I don't like the idea that it can strike at any time. Even new corals (if any) will sit for months before seeing my dt. I'm at war!!
     
    chuck78, Mar 22, 2012
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  9. chuck78

    justanotherfishhead Lisa

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    I'm also determined to be rid of ich and will be starting my copper (Cuprimine) treatment this weekend. I was going to try hypo, but copper seems way easier, and only takes 2 weeks (but of course after the two weeks I will keep them in QT 6 more weeks before returning them to the DT). I heard some reports that bacteria may go dormant a day or two but usually comes back. I bought the ammonia monitor thing and will be watching it.
     
    justanotherfishhead, Mar 22, 2012
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  10. chuck78

    chuck78 The Reefanatic

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    Bump?
     
    chuck78, Mar 22, 2012
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  11. chuck78

    little_fish Moderator

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    You need to keep them in the copper for the full 8 weeks, otherwise you will miss the ich that come out of the tissues after 2 weeks.
     
    little_fish, Mar 22, 2012
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  12. chuck78

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    Copper has to be done for 8 weeks, Hannah is right.

    In my opinion, hypo is much easier than copper. Salinity is easier to measure, and easier to adjust. Not to mention cheaper!

    But either way, if you are wanting to permanently rid your system of ich, you are absolutely on the right path and doing the right things. When treating with either hypo or copper, you should monitor the parameters in your quarantine tank carefully since they will be more sensitive to changes. You will have to do water changes if anything spikes. Most people run a small HOB filter during the quarantine process to help the bacteria along.
     
    Bifferwine, Mar 22, 2012
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  13. chuck78

    justanotherfishhead Lisa

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    This quote is from the sticky posted in this section "Copper 101":

    "In short, follow the manufacturer's treatment recommendations very closely." (Seachem site says 14 days only)

    "One advantage of Cupramine is that it is a 14-day treatment AFTER the copper concentration is up into the range (after the second dose). Other medication manufacturers claim their treatment takes longer or shorter, but the 14-day treatment makes sense when you review the life cycle of MI and MV."

    Is the sticky and Seachem site wrong?
     
    justanotherfishhead, Mar 22, 2012
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  14. chuck78

    little_fish Moderator

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    Yes, because they are only treating the visible ich, not what is still in the tissues. Most people dont understand the lifecycle of ich and only want to get the stuff they can see.
     
    little_fish, Mar 22, 2012
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  15. chuck78

    justanotherfishhead Lisa

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    Little Fish and Biff, I trust you both and you have been so helpful to me. I just don't understand, if the sticky is wrong why is it still there? I'm worried about using such a strong medication for longer than the manufacturer recommends. There are many reviews saying it worked for them at the time specified, and none saying it didn't. I was planning to leave the fish in QT and observe them for the remaining 6 weeks, so if it came back I would see that.
     
    justanotherfishhead, Mar 23, 2012
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  16. chuck78

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    I'm confused too. I'm going to do more research on this. :)
     
    Bifferwine, Mar 23, 2012
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  17. chuck78

    justanotherfishhead Lisa

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    Several things I read about copper (Cupramine in particular) vs. hypo that made me want to do copper instead:

    1) the 14 day period - much less time to worry about whether fish are okay

    2) they say Cupramine affects the biological filter for a few days but after that the bacteria adjust

    3) doesn't swing pH like hypo - no need to constantly make adjustments for that - although I will keep an eye on it

    4) I heard some reports of hypo not working, for example Robert Fenner on WWM recommends copper as a sure thing instead of hypo. probably people not doing it correctly, but still.

    5) you can use a skimmer with Cupramine, in fact Seachem recommends it on their site.
     
    justanotherfishhead, Mar 23, 2012
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  18. chuck78

    justanotherfishhead Lisa

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    Update - I called Seachem and they said you could use Cupramine for a month if you wanted, to really be sure that it's gone, as long as the fish are tolerating it. Anyone have any experience with it? How long did you use it for and was it successful?
     
    justanotherfishhead, Mar 23, 2012
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  19. chuck78

    chuck78 The Reefanatic

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    WOW!!! that's cool, but it really doesn't matter if it is 1 month or 1 day b/c you're supposed to run your dt fishless for no less than two months to make sure all the ich in the dt is dead :(
     
    chuck78, Mar 23, 2012
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  20. chuck78

    justanotherfishhead Lisa

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    Yes, I plan to run the DT fishless for 8 weeks. But I don't want to subject the fish to copper any longer than necessary. Although I know some people have kept fish in copper for several years (like you I think?) so maybe you guys are right, better to just keep copper for 8 weeks.
     
    justanotherfishhead, Mar 23, 2012
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