Emergency Hospital Tank Ammonia Issues

[dankolle]

I am setting up an emergency hospital tank (55g) and I have 0.50 ammonia readings this morning. I put a atl. blue tang in for 1 day and it died (severe Ich). The tank is now testing 0.50 ammonia, but I also have Coppersafe in it, which is known to throw off ammonia test kits (I am using API).

I have no filtration on it, as I read copper kills the bacteria so there is no point anyways. Before I QT my sailfin, how do I keep ammonia down?

 

[BL1]

Larger than normal size water changes are your only way to keep the levels down.

 

[dankolle]

Are we talking 35%? 50%? 75%?

 

[BL1]

There's no way to determine that with out trial and error. Mix a batch and change it out, if it isn't enough make a bigger batch and continue that. You're going to end up doing a TON of water changes if you're going to QT.

 

[dankolle]

Yeah I figured as much, but wanted to see if anyone had any "magical" potions...

 

[jahel318]

Use Amquel plus! I am in the same boat as you....I have a hospital tank setup for my clown and dartfish to treat ich. It's been running for a month and I couldn't get amonia down. I bought Amquel after reading several reviews and this stuff really works great! Within 48 hours my amonia and nitrates were down to zero. My nitrites on the other hand are still a little high though but it should come down with another water change tonight. Make sure you read the label fully to see if you can use this product with the copper treatment. I'm just doing a hyposalinity treatment and adding Kordon Ich Attach - no copper.

 

[ErinCahir]

I wouldn't use anything other than water changes in conjunction with copper dosing. You never know what chemical is going to mess with your treatment.

 

[dankolle]

I called my LFS and they recommended I move some live rock to the qt to help cycle faster. I moved some sump rubble and it went down to .25, then yesterday it went to 1 now today back to .25. I am going to lose some fish if I don't start treatment soon. If it isn't 0 tomorrow does anyine have any good ideas on a plan?

 

[ErinCahir]

The copper is going to kill all the bacteria on your rocks. So it will help right up until EVERYTHING live on the rock dies.

 

[nphsmith]

The copper is going to kill all the bacteria on your rocks. So it will help right up until EVERYTHING live on the rock dies.

No, it's not. Copper has some deleterious effect on bacteria, but it's barely noticeable in the real world. However, copper will kill off some inverts that are in/on your LR, so there may a spike when you start dosing - it's an easy confusion.Your LFS gave good advice regarding using LR, it's the best way to sort your situation.

Do *not* use Amquel or similar when dosing with Copper. The reaction makes the Copper 'more ionic' (I don't understand the Chemistry enough to be precise in terms), which can kill your fish at very low doses.

Do you have a power-filter in the QT? Or a powerhead? You need to get some flow running over the LR for it to act as filtration - after a while the powerfilter will pick up enough bacteria to do the job.

I'd highly recommend getting a Seachem Ammonia Disk - it's ideal for a QT (Measures poisonous Ammonia rather than total, not affected by Copper), will give you an ongoing alert about any issues, and lasts a year.

If you are going to use Copper to treat while the LR is still in there, you should be aware of 2 issues: one, that you shouldn't put the LR back in a reef tank - it will leach Copper. Secondly, you may find it absorbs Copper so you aren't getting quite the concentration you need - a Copper test kit (Preferably Salifert) will help with this.

 

[dankolle]

I am using a product called "Coppersafe" which says in the instructions that it won't kill bacteria found in live rock.

Do you have a power-filter in the QT? Or a powerhead? You need to get some flow running over the LR for it to act as filtration - after a while the powerfilter will pick up enough bacteria to do the job.

Yes, I have two nano korillas and one huge maxi-jet mod (1400GPH) moving water around. I also have two air stones pumping O2 into the ater



My other issue is if the Ammonia isn't down tonight, I have two fish that have been showing signs of ICH and are not happy. I was thinking about setting up another tank that is just 100% DT water and move them over right away. They need treatment badly, any ideas if this is good or bad?

 

[nphsmith]

I am using a product called "Coppersafe" which says in the instructions that it won't kill bacteria found in live rock.



Yes, I have two nano korillas and one huge maxi-jet mod (1400GPH) moving water around. I also have two air stones pumping O2 into the ater



My other issue is if the Ammonia isn't down tonight, I have two fish that have been showing signs of ICH and are not happy. I was thinking about setting up another tank that is just 100% DT water and move them over right away. They need treatment badly, any ideas if this is good or bad?

You probably don't need the airstones, but they won't do any harm. A power-filter - the sort you get inside tropical tanks - woudl be a really good place for bacteria to accumulate (If you get a new one, make sure to remove any Carbon pads/sponges, as they will absorb any medication).

Don't move them to a new tank - the amount of bacteria in water is negligible compared to that in LR, so you would just be starting the cycle again - feel free to do more water changes though - if you have already started with Coppersafe, you will need to put an appropriate amount of that in the new water (IE If you replace 4 gallons, add 5ml Coppersafe to it).

(I'm not personally familiar with Coppersafe, but from my reading it is Chelated Copper, which is good because it is less likely to harm the fish if you overdose. My brain has a tendency to explode when trying to understand the detailed differences between Chelated, Ionic, and Aminated Copper, There is some argument that chelated (Coppersafe) is OK with Amquel etc, but personally I wouldn't risk it).

By the way, what Ammonia test kit are you using? THere are 2 types of Ammonia, and you may be seeing the harmless type at this point.

 

[dankolle]

By the way, what Ammonia test kit are you using? THere are 2 types of Ammonia, and you may be seeing the harmless type at this point.

I am using an API kit, not exactly sure what type of Ammonia it picks up on. I have also heard that the copper affects the Ammonia test, but I don't think it is affecting mine because it has changed over the last 4 days.

 

[jahel318]

Ok heres the deal....My clown was laying on its side getting ready to die due to ich being in an advanced stage and he was breathing rapidly... The advice in this first article worked for my ich treatment. However, I have not tried the second article "formalin dip". After following the steps in the first article, I placed my fish in a hyposalinity solution. It's been 32 days now since they've been in the QT and both fish are doing excellent as far as I can tell.
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/hyposalinity/ht/ht_fwbath.htm
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/ht/treatbrooklynel.htm

 

[nphsmith]

I am using an API kit, not exactly sure what type of Ammonia it picks up on. I have also heard that the copper affects the Ammonia test, but I don't think it is affecting mine because it has changed over the last 4 days.

OK, the API test measures both Ammonia (Nh3 - deadly poison), and Ammonium (NH4 - not good, but not a nightmare) - so it will be somewhat overstating the risk.

With regards to FW dip - it's fine as an emergency solution to Cryptocaryon - it is more likely to get at parasites in the gills rather than those in the body, so should be regarded as a short-term prelude to a more long-term solution (such as Copper). I have a video how-to at :

 

[dankolle]

Sad news...Both of the new Tangs that attracted ICH have died. The Sailfin took a very quick turn for the worse today. Declined very fast over 4 hours from swimming and eating to dead.

My QT still shows about .25 Ammonia so I am nervous to start the quarantine process on the rest of my live stock. I did a 15% water change today and it didn't seem to help the levels at all. I am trying to get an Ammonia badge, but have no LFS within 3 hours of my house so it is coming in the mail. My other fish are showing signs of ICH so I am really scared for their lives. Will .25 kill them? Why won't it go down below that amount? I have LR in the tank that was in my DT for at least a year.

 

[nphsmith]

Given the situation, I would start to treat now. Per my previous, the App will somewhat overstate the ammonia risk.


It's not ideal, but given you are losing stock I'd go now - being aware there is some risk.

 

[nphsmith]

Api not app!

 

[dankolle]

I went ahead and caught one fish and dripped for 45 minutes last night. So far, he is still alive and happy in the QT this morning. I don't want to add them too quickly to the QT and cause ammonia issues, but I also need to get the treatment started. I hope all goes well...thanks for everyone's help!

From my readings, I need to keep my DT fallow for 8 weeks, is that right? I would hate to need 10 and do all this work just to be a few weeks short...

 

[dankolle]

After a full tear down of the rocks, I was able to harvest all of my fish from the DT last night. Dripped for one hour and they are all huddled together in my 55 QT. The clowns were so funny, when I re-united them last night they were so happy!

So far this morning no ammonia issues, nitrates & nitrites are all reading 0. I'll keep a close eye, but I am really upset that I ended up losing two fish during this process.

If anyone is reading this and doesn't think a QT procedure for new animals is absolutely 100% essential, take my advise, save yourself hundreds of dollars and the loss of live stock and always quarantine your new purchases, no matter what!