Fighting Fishies--What To Do?

Rcpilot

Rcpilot

Reef enthusiast
My poor little ocellarous clown (Nemo) gets constantly harassed and battered by the 6-line wrasse (Striper)

I'm worried about Nemos health. It can't be good for him to be stressed out like that. He used to swim back and forth on the front glass all day. Happy to dive in and out of the current from various powerheads. Gettin' his exercise.

In the last few weeks, the wrasse has become very aggressive. He was always a bully--but lately it's gotten BAD. Nemo is only about 1.25" long and Striper is easily 2" long, maybe 2.25" long. Significantly bigger than Nemo. He basically has Nemo stuck in a corner now. Nemo won't come out of his little corner at the top of the aquarium except to eat. Striper constanly swims up in the corner and shows aggressive behavior. Raises his dorsal fins and bats his tail at Nemo or nips at him. Nemo runs away, but then goes back to his corner as soon as Striper leaves.

I'm getting pissed about it. Nemo has't figured it out yet that he could hide in the rocks or host a mushroom. Maybe thats just not his natural behavior--to swim in the rocks?

What can I do? I've thought about trapping Striper and putting him in a small plexiglass box--an in tank refugium of sorts. Basically put him in jail and let Nemo have the run of the tank again. I don't know if behavior modification is possible with fish. Would it be possible to train Striper to just leave him alone? I don't imagine it will be easy to trap Striper once--but multiple times? fugetaboutit.

My wife says I should buy an anenome for Nemo and see if he will host in there. It's a possible solution, but it may not work. Who knows weather or not Nemo will host the anenome? And what if the anenome dies or gets sick? Could crash my whole tank. Huge risk that I'm not really to keen on.

Any ideas? I could trap the wrasse and trade it, but thats kind of a last resort too. I like him. He's just a bully and he's so mich bigger that I'm not sure things will ever level off.
 
hmmmm, there is no fool-proof way to handle this situation. I have had luck with the following: 1) rearrange the rock with the lights off, leaving both fish in the tank. they will hide behind rocks and not come out until the tank is all done. That will make them re-establish boundaries and pecking order. Many times by doing this they lose their "territory" and won't fight. 2) add another fish, make sure it is larger than the wrasse, but not super aggressive. Do this just after changing around the rock. To give the sense that the fish have moved into a new place. Having a third fish will also distract attention away from just Nemo. I have found that clowns do well in pairs, and if you have the fancy, to seek out an additional clown, a larger one (for sure) to give support to the smaller clown. 3) Take out the wrasse for a short period of time, like a week, house him at the LFS and rearrange the tank. Some fish are just mean that way. I tried for several weeks when the same thing happened to my Koran and Bluering angelfish. I ended up choosing the Koran over the Bluering and moved the Bluering to a different tank. Good luck

-Doc
 
Thanks Doc. I had thought about another clown, as I had heard they were good in pairs. Just worried about cramping the tank with too many fish. I can rearrange the rocks, but I don't think it will help. Striper has figured it out that he's "caught" and this is as big as his environment is ever going to get. I move rocks here and there to try and get corals placed where they are happy. Some do better in higher flow or less light etc.. Striper goes back to his old tricks within hours.

I had thought about getting another fish to provide a distraction for the wrasse. I like blue chromis, but I'd want to get 3 of them and then the tank would be WAY overloaded. Unlike hotimportknight--I do NOT plan on upgrading anytime soon. :mrgreen: Sticking with the 30g for now. Could get another clown, but what good is 2 clowns without an anenome or something to host in? Would it just be more of a distraction for the wrasse? Would the clowns stick together and "fight" the wrasse off as a team?

Do you think I could get some other type of coral that Nemo may host in? A hammer coral? Anything besides an anenome? I've heard they can host in other corals, but not sure which ones would be good to try.

Thanks again.
 
Just because the clown is hosting in something won't keep the sixline from chasing it or beating it up... I don't see how that would help any. If rearranging the rock doesn't work, you may be forced to pick which one stays and which one goes.
 
I guess I was under the impression that a clown would hunker down in the anenome and the other fish would be too afraid to venture in there after the clown.

Isn't that why they developed this relationship in nature? The anenome provides protection and the clown feeds it?

Sorry if this seams stupid. Not trying to be argumentative. I just thought these 2 species had developed a "mutually beneficial" relationship with each other.

I really don't want to get an anenome anyway. I'd much rather get some other type of coral and see if I can "trick" Nemo into hosting it. I think that it's possible--if I get Nemo to "grow" mentally and start hosting something as he would in the wild, he may start to become protective of his host and defend it. That may just work to keep the wrasse off his back.

Are there any other corals I could use as a surrogate host for Nemo?
 
Rc,
Your right about the reasons clown use a host anemone in the wild.The anemone gives the clown protection and in return the clowns feed the anemone.
You might try some xenia.I had a seba clown that loved my xenia forest when I had my 30 set up.A hammer might work.The problem with clowns is they may never use anything as a host.
 
it is going to be hit and miss. There is no way to know for sure. I have seen them on long tenticle plates, frogspawn, flower pots, xenia, etc. The problem is that the coral will not provide real protection. There are a lot of "ifs" that you are seeking. You mentioned rearranging the rock "little by little" for the coral placement. I am talking about tearing down the whole aquascape and re-stacking it. that is what will make them establish new territory. The tank needs to have a different look and feel.

with a 30 gallon, you can have 6-8 inches of fish. They do grow slow. You can cheat an inch or two with maximum growth. It will be OK to add another fish, like a firefish or goby, a neon dottyback would be a good choice as well.

My two clowns fight together when I stick my hand into the tank. I have seen it happen a lot. Try another if you like and see if they go against the wrasse. I would still tear it all down and restack if you are serious about giving it a good try.

If not, you will need to choose. That is what sucks about this hobby, you can never seem to keep all the fish you want. That is why people get more than one tank and go bigger each time

-Doc
 
What about buying an in-tank refugium and putting the wrasse in a "holding cell" for a bit? I don't know if it's possible to train a fish or modify their bahavior.

I did manage to train the fish in my wifes freshwater tank. Lights on--they know it's feedin' time.

Don't know if Striper would understand the concept of crime and punishment. And how in the hell do you catch a swimming bullet anyways? It would have to be a trap or one smart trick to capture him--not to mention FAST!
 
If you try a coral,you know its going to be a hit or miss situation,right?
I've had clowns host mushrooms,frogspawns,torches,open brains.I've seen others who hosted toadstools,xenias and more.I know this may sound strange but I never had an Ocellaris clown,not even sure if they accept substitute hosts or if they host as easily as Clarks and Maroons.
 
I know--it's an ambigous question without any definitive answers. I do appreciate the help and ideas you guys/gals are giving me.

I do realize that none of the other corals would provide the protection that a stinging anenome would provide. It would only be shelter if I used a different type of coral. And who knows if the clown will even host?

I saw one guy had a couple clowns that would not host his anenome. He got a picture of clowns hosting in the wild and he taped that picture to the front glass of his tank. 2 months later--he had hosting clowns.

Perhaps they CAN be trained? :shock:
 
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Yes, the reason I said that buying corals for them to host in would be pointless is exactly because the corals are not anemones, they won't sting any other fish that get near them. I think you misunderstood my comment -- I realize that you said you didn't want an anemone, and were looking for something else for them to host, but anything else is not going to provide them with the protection that an anemone would. Sorry for the confusion.

And about your buddy taping the picture to the glass... There's no way he can prove that seeing the picture made them host. Sometimes, it can take months for the clowns to host the anemone, whether there's a picture taped up to the glass or not. What I have heard is that if the anemone is close to the glass and you tape a picture of a clown in front of it, the clown in the tank might think that it sees a clown in the anemone (when it's really just the picture). I've heard that this can sometimes help them host, but it's because they think the picture is a real clown... Who knows.
 
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.....but frogspawns stings,torches stings,elegances stings.Some people think anemones are the biggest stingers but actually corals like
hydnophora,elegance even frogspawns have more potent stings.
 
even my Acanthastrea has a stronger sting than my Sebea does. the Acan fell on top of the Sebea the other night (while i was sleeping). when i noticed it in the morning ... the Sebea was more damaged than the Acan was.
However, i think that i would be losing one of the fish, or adding something a little bigger and badder than the six line. something like an Arabian Pseudochromis or something similar.

Arabian Pseudochromis - Pseudochromis aldabraensis
 
Yeah they sting, but A) there's only a small chance that the clown will host it anyways, and B) the frogspawn/mushroom/whatever is not going to keep a sixline away from a clown if it is hellbent on chasing it.
 
best bet, IMHO is to add a "buffer fish" and hope it works. I just added a pink-tail trigger today and it totally worked to keep the Koran away from my Moorish Idol. I would do it

-Doc
 
I like that Neon Dottyback you suggested Doc. You don't think I'm pushing my bioload too much, I assume? I do feel like I have a good handle on my water parameters now. Never a hint of nitrates. Got my pH under control by bumping the alk up.
 
I would drop in that neon dottyback. they get aggressive and would keep that wrasse in check. My LFS has one but I cannot remember how much they cost. I think your bioload will be fine. Here is the thing with bioload. The more LR you have, the more you can push your bioload. 1 pound per gallon is OK, but if you have 1.5 you can push your bioload up to 4 gallons per inch of fish - giving you 8 inches of fish. Also, as your tank ages, you will be able to sustain more bioload. I bet you will not crash your tank. DO IT

-Doc
 
I'm right at 2lbs per gallon with my rock. 61lbs in that little 30g tank.:mrgreen:

I'll start looking tomorrow. Thanks Doc.
 
Let your water parameters dictate whether or not you can add more fish. If you are not getting high nitrates, try adding one more.
 

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