Grounding Probe

Discussion in 'Reef Fishes' started by ricksli@nospam.optonline.net, Jul 28, 2003.

  1. Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
    hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
    touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
    Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
    ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
    when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?
     
    ricksli@nospam.optonline.net, Jul 28, 2003
    #1
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  2. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    If you have any device leaking elektricity to the water, and you are
    affraid of negative effects on your tank inhabitants, the grounding
    probe will make things even worse. It will INCREASE the current
    flowing from the failed device to the ground through the water column.
    Without the probe, the resistance of glass, wood is high enought
    to make the current flow almost zero. The probe will lower this
    resistance to zero and current will be limited only with the weak
    resistance of broken insulation of the device.

    If you narrowed the problem to the light fixture I would look to this
    really closer. Does it have metal reflector? Is it correctly grounded?
    Lights usualy radiate some electricity to water, but if the fixture
    is designed correctly it is negligible.

    Do one test: disconnect the probe from ground and put a multimeter
    in series with it on a AC current settings. If you measure less then 1mA
    I would not worry about. If it is more than that I would fix your lights.
    Let me give you an example - the original fluorescent fixture from
    CustomSeaLights causes readings on a level about 0.2mA. DIY
    fixture I made with my friend gives reading 0.8mA when one lamp is
    on and 1.6mA when both lamps are on. This is a reason for us to
    redesign reflector and replace glass mirror with grounded polished
    aluminium.

    In your case I would fix the light fixture and I would get rid of the probe
    for sure.

    In a matter of your GFCI plug - what is it rated for? 5-6mA?
    Or maybe bigger? 1mA current is detectable by human skin. 5mA is
    already very painful. GFCI plug will not react to very small currents.

    <ricksli@nospam.optonline.net> wrote in message news:md6aivkde6jthnvvi519jr32p8l238f0ov@4ax.com...
    > Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
    > hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
    > touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
    > Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
    > ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
    > when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?
     
    Pszemol, Jul 28, 2003
    #2
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  3. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net wrote:
    > Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
    > hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
    > touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
    > Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
    > ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
    > when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?


    The GFCI will only protect you against leaking devices that are plugged
    into the GFCI. It does not really matter if ground probe is plugged
    into the GFCI or not, because the GFCI compares the current in the hot
    and neutral wires to detect a fault rather than monitoring the ground
    wire. The ground probe merely provides a means for a bad device to leak
    to ground and trip the GFCI before you stick your hand in. I would
    suggest that you make sure that ALL devices are plugged into the GFCI,
    otherwise you are not fully covered. If it still does not trip I would
    check to make sure the GFCI is wired correctly.
     
    Brian C. Attwood, Jul 28, 2003
    #3
  4. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    RickS Guest

    Well, I thought the outlet was a GFCI since it was in my kitchen not too far
    from an actual GFCI outlet. I just tested that one and it did not shut off
    the outlet at the tank. Guess I'll be changing that outlet today...although
    I think I have a portable GFCI I can attach for now. It's only a temporary
    setup for an injured fish. It's a 25 gallon tank with an Eclipse hood and
    it's that light that was causing the little shocks. Probably because some
    water got inside it. It's a big puffer in there and he splashes allot. So,
    anyway I'll just keep the light unplugged for now. I'm sure it's fine and
    just needs to dry out.

    You're answer though does lead me to another question with my big tank. I
    have that on a GFCI outlet (for sure) with 2 power strips plugged into that.
    The ground probe is plugged into one of the power strips. Will the probe
    still trip the GFCI before I stick my hand in or must it be plugged directly
    into the outlet, not the power strip.

    Thanks!


    "Brian C. Attwood" <attwood@NOSPAMturbo.che.ncsu.edu> wrote in message
    news:bg38nm$ms1$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu...
    > ricksli@nospam.optonline.net wrote:
    > > Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
    > > hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
    > > touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
    > > Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
    > > ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
    > > when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?

    >
    > The GFCI will only protect you against leaking devices that are plugged
    > into the GFCI. It does not really matter if ground probe is plugged
    > into the GFCI or not, because the GFCI compares the current in the hot
    > and neutral wires to detect a fault rather than monitoring the ground
    > wire. The ground probe merely provides a means for a bad device to leak
    > to ground and trip the GFCI before you stick your hand in. I would
    > suggest that you make sure that ALL devices are plugged into the GFCI,
    > otherwise you are not fully covered. If it still does not trip I would
    > check to make sure the GFCI is wired correctly.
    >
     
    RickS, Jul 28, 2003
    #4
  5. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "Brian C. Attwood" <attwood@NOSPAMturbo.che.ncsu.edu> wrote in message news:bg3nun$23b$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu...
    > It should not matter where probe is plugged in as long as it provides a
    > path to ground. The GFCI trips when it detects that the current in the
    > host wire is not equal to the current in the neutral wire, meaning that
    > the difference must be going somewhere else, i.e. the ground probe or
    > your hand. Whether that current goes through the GFCI's ground wire or
    > another outlet (or your body) makes no difference. If your powerstrip
    > was not adequately grounded then that would be a problem.


    Everything is tight of course, but I need to add GFCI will normally
    NOT trip when the current difference, in other words: leakage to
    ground is less then 5-6 mA. At this value you may still feel a sting when
    you touch the water but the current will be too small for GFCI to trip.
    It just protects you from being electrocuted :)
     
    Pszemol, Jul 28, 2003
    #5
  6. Pszemol wrote:
    > "Brian C. Attwood" <attwood@NOSPAMturbo.che.ncsu.edu> wrote in message news:bg3nun$23b$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu...
    >
    >>It should not matter where probe is plugged in as long as it provides a
    >>path to ground. The GFCI trips when it detects that the current in the
    >>host wire is not equal to the current in the neutral wire, meaning that
    >>the difference must be going somewhere else, i.e. the ground probe or
    >>your hand. Whether that current goes through the GFCI's ground wire or
    >>another outlet (or your body) makes no difference. If your powerstrip
    >>was not adequately grounded then that would be a problem.

    >
    >
    > Everything is right of course, but I need to add GFCI will normally
    > NOT trip when the current difference, in other words: leakage to
    > ground is less then 5-6 mA. At this value you may still feel a sting when
    > you touch the water but the current will be too small for GFCI to trip.
    > It just protects you from being electrocuted :)


    Good point, although intuitively I would think that a voltage sufficient
    enough to cause a 5-6mA current through a person (so-so conductor) might
    result in quite a bit more current through a metal ground probe (better
    conductor) and thus trip the GFCI. Either way, not getting electrocuted
    is always preferred.
     
    Brian C. Attwood, Jul 28, 2003
    #6
  7. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    SG Guest

    In article <bg2mfj.1f4.1@poczta.onet.pl>, Pszemol wrote:
    >
    >In your case I would fix the light fixture and I would get rid of the probe
    >for sure.


    Do not get rid of the ground probe. It could save your life. All
    saltwater tanks should have a ground probe.
     
    SG, Jul 29, 2003
    #7
  8. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    mark Guest

    what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my safety?
    "Brian C. Attwood" <attwood@NOSPAMturbo.che.ncsu.edu> wrote in message
    news:bg3qgr$35a$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu...
    > Pszemol wrote:
    > > "Brian C. Attwood" <attwood@NOSPAMturbo.che.ncsu.edu> wrote in message

    news:bg3nun$23b$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu...
    > >
    > >>It should not matter where probe is plugged in as long as it provides a
    > >>path to ground. The GFCI trips when it detects that the current in the
    > >>host wire is not equal to the current in the neutral wire, meaning that
    > >>the difference must be going somewhere else, i.e. the ground probe or
    > >>your hand. Whether that current goes through the GFCI's ground wire or
    > >>another outlet (or your body) makes no difference. If your powerstrip
    > >>was not adequately grounded then that would be a problem.

    > >
    > >
    > > Everything is right of course, but I need to add GFCI will normally
    > > NOT trip when the current difference, in other words: leakage to
    > > ground is less then 5-6 mA. At this value you may still feel a sting

    when
    > > you touch the water but the current will be too small for GFCI to trip.
    > > It just protects you from being electrocuted :)

    >
    > Good point, although intuitively I would think that a voltage sufficient
    > enough to cause a 5-6mA current through a person (so-so conductor) might
    > result in quite a bit more current through a metal ground probe (better
    > conductor) and thus trip the GFCI. Either way, not getting electrocuted
    > is always preferred.
    >
     
    mark, Jul 29, 2003
    #8
  9. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    J Guest

    now that it is mentioned marc check your GFCI.
    "Marc Levenson" <melev@swbell.net> wrote in message
    news:3F25C8D8.699E5FCF@swbell.net...
    > FWIW, I was getting shocked by my 29g a few times last week. I tried

    unplugging one thing after
    > another to figure out what was causing it, but never could. I have a

    grounding probe, btw.
    >
    > Jose was over, and we checked it together, and still it was very elusive.

    Finally, I pushed my cords
    > firmly into the outlets, and the problem was solved. :D
    >
    > Marc
    >
    >
    > Pszemol wrote:
    >
    > > If you have any device leaking elektricity to the water, and you are
    > > affraid of negative effects on your tank inhabitants, the grounding
    > > probe will make things even worse. It will INCREASE the current
    > > flowing from the failed device to the ground through the water column.
    > > Without the probe, the resistance of glass, wood is high enought
    > > to make the current flow almost zero. The probe will lower this
    > > resistance to zero and current will be limited only with the weak
    > > resistance of broken insulation of the device.
    > >
    > > If you narrowed the problem to the light fixture I would look to this
    > > really closer. Does it have metal reflector? Is it correctly grounded?
    > > Lights usualy radiate some electricity to water, but if the fixture
    > > is designed correctly it is negligible.
    > >
    > > Do one test: disconnect the probe from ground and put a multimeter
    > > in series with it on a AC current settings. If you measure less then 1mA
    > > I would not worry about. If it is more than that I would fix your

    lights.
    > > Let me give you an example - the original fluorescent fixture from
    > > CustomSeaLights causes readings on a level about 0.2mA. DIY
    > > fixture I made with my friend gives reading 0.8mA when one lamp is
    > > on and 1.6mA when both lamps are on. This is a reason for us to
    > > redesign reflector and replace glass mirror with grounded polished
    > > aluminium.
    > >
    > > In your case I would fix the light fixture and I would get rid of the

    probe
    > > for sure.
    > >
    > > In a matter of your GFCI plug - what is it rated for? 5-6mA?
    > > Or maybe bigger? 1mA current is detectable by human skin. 5mA is
    > > already very painful. GFCI plug will not react to very small currents.
    > >
    > > <ricksli@nospam.optonline.net> wrote in message

    news:md6aivkde6jthnvvi519jr32p8l238f0ov@4ax.com...
    > > > Just wondering here...I put a ground probe in one of my tanks and
    > > > hooked it up to a GFCI outlet. I was feeling some shocks when I
    > > > touched the water. I narrowed the problem down to the lighting.
    > > > Anyway, the GFCI never tripped. I thought aside from supposedly
    > > > ridding the tank of stray voltage, that it would also trip the GFCI
    > > > when the water is touched. I guess not? What's the deal?

    >
    > --
    > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
    >
    >
     
    J, Jul 29, 2003
    #9
  10. Marc Levenson, Jul 29, 2003
    #10
  11. They aren't. I have two circuits in my room. Each is a 20amp breaker, but one
    is GCFI. My lighting is on the GCFI, as well as my heaters. The return pumps
    are on the regular outlets.

    I've had the electrician out here two times to get it set up the way I like it.

    Marc


    J wrote:

    > Marc all your eggs in one basket is a very not smart idea. Home depot has
    > three for $20 outlet style I'm sure you could install them or I can if you
    > feel uncomfortable.
    > "


    --
    Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
     
    Marc Levenson, Jul 29, 2003
    #11
  12. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    J Guest

    pumps need the/a GFCI too. Didn't you have a pump failure recently? just a
    thought.
    feel free to tell me shut up if I'm pestering you..lol
    "Marc Levenson" <melev@swbell.net> wrote in message
    news:3F25EC9F.F547E9F@swbell.net...
    > They aren't. I have two circuits in my room. Each is a 20amp breaker,

    but one
    > is GCFI. My lighting is on the GCFI, as well as my heaters. The return

    pumps
    > are on the regular outlets.
    >
    > I've had the electrician out here two times to get it set up the way I

    like it.
    >
    > Marc
    >
    >
    > J wrote:
    >
    > > Marc all your eggs in one basket is a very not smart idea. Home depot

    has
    > > three for $20 outlet style I'm sure you could install them or I can if

    you
    > > feel uncomfortable.
    > > "

    >
    > --
    > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
    >
    >
     
    J, Jul 29, 2003
    #12
  13. That pump was bad since day one. The replacement works great.

    Marc

    J wrote:

    > pumps need the/a GFCI too. Didn't you have a pump failure recently? just a
    > thought.
    > feel free to tell me shut up if I'm pestering you..lol
    > "Marc Levenson" <melev@swbell.net> wrote in message
    > news:3F25EC9F.F547E9F@swbell.net...
    > > They aren't. I have two circuits in my room. Each is a 20amp breaker,

    > but one
    > > is GCFI. My lighting is on the GCFI, as well as my heaters. The return

    > pumps
    > > are on the regular outlets.
    > >
    > > I've had the electrician out here two times to get it set up the way I

    > like it.
    > >
    > > Marc
    > >
    > >
    > > J wrote:
    > >
    > > > Marc all your eggs in one basket is a very not smart idea. Home depot

    > has
    > > > three for $20 outlet style I'm sure you could install them or I can if

    > you
    > > > feel uncomfortable.
    > > > "

    > >
    > > --
    > > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    > > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    > > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
    > >
    > >


    --
    Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
     
    Marc Levenson, Jul 29, 2003
    #13
  14. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "SG" <abuse@kernelpanic.ca> wrote in message news:slrnbibfoc.be5.abuse@ogre.bishop...
    > In article <bg2mfj.1f4.1@poczta.onet.pl>, Pszemol wrote:
    > >
    > >In your case I would fix the light fixture and
    > >I would get rid of the probe for sure.

    >
    > Do not get rid of the ground probe. It could save your life.
    > All saltwater tanks should have a ground probe.


    GFCI saves life... Grounding probe is designed just to keep
    your fish from getting sick from stray voltages - but I guess
    it is only a marketing thing rather than a real deal... because
    the real thing is that grounding probe is making things worse
    for your fish. It creates stray currents which are far worse
    than stray voltages for a living things. But this is only IMHO.
    I would be happy to hear from you about grounding probe saving
    lives... please explain how does it do it?
     
    Pszemol, Jul 29, 2003
    #14
  15. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "mark" <mbernni@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:J2kVa.574586$Vi5.14281130@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
    > what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my safety?


    Standard, 5-6mA, protects you from geting killed.
    It will not protect you from just getting shocked.
    You can feel the current on the level of 1mA.
    5mA is already very painful and you GFCI could
    pass this kind of current without tripping off.
    If you can get lower rated GFCI - do not buy it...
    It could trip without a good reason and it could be
    anoying like hell.

    And one more thing as a warning - one time I purchased
    a pluged GFCI and it tripped every time a power outage
    happened. It did not matter it lasted 1 minute or 1 hour.
    Power went down, GFCI plug disconnected the circuit :-(

    My tank powered by this GFCI was shut off for the whole
    night just because power went down for a minute at 10pm
    and I did not go to the tank to check things up...
    Next morning my shrimp was laying bottom up on the sand.
    It slowly recovered when I turned pumps on and it was
    a miracle for me... but the GFCI plug went to the garbagge.
     
    Pszemol, Jul 29, 2003
    #15
  16. > GFCI saves life... Grounding probe is designed just to keep
    > your fish from getting sick from stray voltages - but I guess
    > it is only a marketing thing rather than a real deal... because
    > the real thing is that grounding probe is making things worse
    > for your fish. It creates stray currents which are far worse
    > than stray voltages for a living things. But this is only IMHO.
    > I would be happy to hear from you about grounding probe saving
    > lives... please explain how does it do it?


    it saves the lives of my blue spot stingray:)

    i went through a un commented number of them after I got my first, the tank is outside,
    and they would not do well, I bought that tank used, with the ray, it took only a few days
    to kill it, and the next ...... there was very very little stray voltage leaking from
    something but it was bothering him, now the probe, and cooler temps and ive been keeping
    the same one for a while ill have to dig out dates but I think its over a year now.

    I would suspect that a grounding probe **WITH** a GFCI would do a good job at sending that
    stray current away from the guy with his hand in his tank, between the time that the shock
    occurs and the GFCI trips, but read into that third word suspect in this statement as I
    have no proof either way. just seems the probe is a much less resistant path then a guy
    with his arm in a tank

    --
    richard reynolds
    richard.reynolds@usa.net
     
    richard reynolds, Jul 29, 2003
    #16
  17. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    > it saves the lives of my blue spot stingray:)
    >
    > i went through a un commented number of them after I got my first, the

    tank is outside,
    > and they would not do well, I bought that tank used, with the ray, it took

    only a few days
    > to kill it, and the next ...... there was very very little stray voltage

    leaking from
    > something but it was bothering him, now the probe, and cooler temps and

    ive been keeping
    > the same one for a while ill have to dig out dates but I think its over a

    year now.

    So you are saying, that grounding water column and leading much stronger
    electric current out of this failured device to ground, through the water
    and
    the stingray was better than leaving voltage not grounded? It does not make
    sense - try to imagine birds sitting on a 20kV wire hanging between
    hig-voltage
    poles. Do they feel stray voltage around them in the air? On their legs?
    NOT!
    They would certainly feel it when somebody would aproach them with a
    something
    like a "grounding probe". Their would become a nice, birdy fireworks :)
    The same works with water, stray voltage in the water, and leading these
    voltages
    to ground with a grounding probe. Basicaly, the interest of normally
    grounded
    human (shoes?) putting his hand into the water and acting as a poor
    grounding
    probe conflicts with the interest of fish inside the tank. Fish do not want
    any
    grounding probe in their tank, like birds sitting on 20kV wire do not want
    any
    grounding probes near them.

    > I would suspect that a grounding probe **WITH** a GFCI would do a good job

    at sending that
    > stray current away from the guy with his hand in his tank, between the

    time that the shock
    > occurs and the GFCI trips, but read into that third word suspect in this

    statement as I
    > have no proof either way. just seems the probe is a much less resistant

    path then a guy
    > with his arm in a tank


    As I said - there are two different aspects of this issue and both need to
    be
    discussed separatelly. In my opinion, I am sufficiently protected against
    being electocuted by the GFCI plug and I do not need additional grounding
    probe. In this case I would not install one to not put miliamps not tripping
    GFCI
    going through the bodies of my fish inside the tank. Yes, I will risk being
    stung
    by the small voltage not tripping GFCI normally, showing itself as a stray
    voltage,
    but I would take this risk just to not make any currents flow in the water
    column.

    Bottom line: GFCI - big YES, Grounding Probe - big NO!
     
    Pszemol, Jul 30, 2003
    #17
  18. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "richard reynolds" <richard.reynolds@usa.net> wrote in message news:uzEVa.103907$R92.35706@news2.central.cox.net...
    > first off rays and sharks sense electrical differences and use that to hunt so YES he
    > noticed that he was on a 20kv wire even if a bird wont notice it. there are biological
    > receptors(?) (shark experts jump in and tell me what its called) that sences very very
    > low pockets(?) of electricity using that to find prey, and hide from prediators


    OK - I would ask the next question - do they sense voltage difference
    or maybe electric currents flowing? Assuming the very low impedance of
    the salt water pointed here several times, it should be rather currents
    because it will be most likely no significant voltage potentials in the seawater.
    I am not a shark/ray expert myself - we should ask some marine biologist :)

    > second you assume its a device, you make an assumption that honestly I do make myself, BUT
    > at the same time cant find your also assuming this stray voltage occurs FROM the tank and
    > goes into the sump where one of the probs are also something I cant prove either way, this
    > is a preditor tank, there are 2 NO flor lights above a glass plate and as its outside that
    > light fixture has been sealed its 100% submersiable and even without the lights its an
    > issue, thats the only AC in or around the tank, everything else is in the sump. IF it were
    > a failing device in the sump and IF it grounded to the probe so it would shock the water
    > in the sump not an issue. there are no closed loops/powerheads or anything else in the
    > tank all the electrical is in the sump


    1. Fluorescent lights can be very big, sometimes the biggest source,
    of electricity in the water. It is the biggest source in case of
    my DIY fixture with no metal reflectors (I used glass mirrors).
    Even if the lamp connectors are sealed the tube itself radiates
    electromagnetic waves through the glas. Make a test, and touch
    a glass part of tube with a burned starter - it will glow. It
    glows from current flowing from the connectors, through the glass,
    your hands to the ground. The same is when the water is grounded.

    2. Assuming all other devices are in the sump, together with the probe
    there is no risk that your probe will electrocute your fish when your
    powerhead will loose the insulation and starts leaking electricity to
    water. It will be shorted to the probe and GFCI will trip - no problem.
    Unfortunately it will not cure the problem with fluorescent fixture or
    any other elec. device submersed in the tank itself instead of the sump.

    > I say it cant be seperate it HAS to be kept together its always
    > a risk to livestock vs risk to ourselves. both need to be eliminated


    I agree that sharks owners have bigger problems if their fish
    are feeling stray voltages... But sharks in home aquariums are
    a big mistake anyway... so there is another story right here :))

    > > Bottom line: GFCI - big YES, Grounding Probe - big NO!

    >
    > again disagreeing here:)


    I challenge you to prove your point of view based on the science :)
    I would be glad proven wrong - I am always happy to learn something new ;-)
     
    Pszemol, Jul 30, 2003
    #18
  19. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Stephen Guest

    GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
    surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
    Basins! etc...

    You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not grounded....

    Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
    ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....


    --
    Stephen
    --------------------------------------------------
    In-Dash MP3
    http://www.highwaymp3.com/
    --------------------------------------------------


    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:bg6s4f.h0.1@poczta.onet.pl...
    > "J" <jose0779@comcast.net> wrote in message

    news:TeGVa.15711$YN5.13321@sccrnsc01...
    > > Without a grounding probe how will the leaking voltage trip the GFCI.
    > > It WONT,

    >
    > Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
    > How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :)
    > How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :)
    >
    > > YOU WILL BE THAT PATH for the potential/voltage in the tank.

    >
    > Exactly.
    > This is the reason GFCI will trip on a safe level of current.
    > No GFCI manufacturer is selling their device as protecting
    > against electrick shock. They sell these to prevent you being
    > KILLED by the electric current. You can still feel a sting.
    >
    > > I myself would rather a GFCI trip once in a while rather than
    > > electrocute myself but to each his own.

    >
    > Right. And since I know in an event of a device leaking I would
    > NOT be electrocuted because GFCI will tripp BEFORE the current
    > rises to a dangerous levels, I do not see the reason to use probe.
    >
    > > I'm in my third semster in
    > > Electronics and have a certificate in Electrical as well as H.V.A.C. and
    > > have worked in Commercial building automation so you decide who to

    believe.
    > > GFCI's NEED GROUNDING to work properly it says so on the box.

    >
    > :))) Oh well... Good luck in your study :)
    >
    > I think I made my point but I do not expect to convince everyone.
     
    Stephen, Jul 30, 2003
    #19
  20. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "Stephen" <stephen@[nospam].net> wrote in message news:vieg3v15flauf7@corp.supernews.com...
    > GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
    > surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
    > Basins! etc...


    The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
    Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor wehre you stand
    combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
    put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
    smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.

    > You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not grounded....


    Right. Is there anybody claiming anything else here?
    See my "birds sitting on a 20kV wire" example... :)

    > Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
    > ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....


    I hope you do not derive all your knowledge about GFCI from its name ;-)

    I can easily imagine a scenario when GFCI will trip when grounding
    will be perfect and DO NOT trip when grounding is faulty...
    If your imagination does not work for some reason I can give you
    full description of such scenarios.
    Is then the GFCI name wrong? Let's change it! ;-)
     
    Pszemol, Jul 30, 2003
    #20
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