Grounding Probe

Discussion in 'Reef Fishes' started by ricksli@nospam.optonline.net, Jul 28, 2003.

  1. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    J Guest

    He's a troll I believe. The answers to all his statements and questions are
    in my post but he won't listen or understand.


    "Stephen" <stephen@[nospam].net> wrote in message
    news:vieg3v15flauf7@corp.supernews.com...
    > GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
    > surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
    > Basins! etc...
    >
    > You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not

    grounded....
    >
    > Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
    > ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....
    >
    >
    > --
    > Stephen
    > --------------------------------------------------
    > In-Dash MP3
    > http://www.highwaymp3.com/
    > --------------------------------------------------
    >
    >
    > "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    > news:bg6s4f.h0.1@poczta.onet.pl...
    > > "J" <jose0779@comcast.net> wrote in message

    > news:TeGVa.15711$YN5.13321@sccrnsc01...
    > > > Without a grounding probe how will the leaking voltage trip the GFCI.
    > > > It WONT,

    > >
    > > Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
    > > How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :)
    > > How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :)
    > >
    > > > YOU WILL BE THAT PATH for the potential/voltage in the tank.

    > >
    > > Exactly.
    > > This is the reason GFCI will trip on a safe level of current.
    > > No GFCI manufacturer is selling their device as protecting
    > > against electrick shock. They sell these to prevent you being
    > > KILLED by the electric current. You can still feel a sting.
    > >
    > > > I myself would rather a GFCI trip once in a while rather than
    > > > electrocute myself but to each his own.

    > >
    > > Right. And since I know in an event of a device leaking I would
    > > NOT be electrocuted because GFCI will tripp BEFORE the current
    > > rises to a dangerous levels, I do not see the reason to use probe.
    > >
    > > > I'm in my third semster in
    > > > Electronics and have a certificate in Electrical as well as H.V.A.C.

    and
    > > > have worked in Commercial building automation so you decide who to

    > believe.
    > > > GFCI's NEED GROUNDING to work properly it says so on the box.

    > >
    > > :))) Oh well... Good luck in your study :)
    > >
    > > I think I made my point but I do not expect to convince everyone.

    >
    >
     
    J, Jul 30, 2003
    #21
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  2. > My goal is not to force you to change your mind.
    > My goal was to express my opinion on this subject.
    > It is up to each of us to make the best decision
    > in order to care for animals we take our responsibility for.


    I know ! :)

    > As much as the 'theory' about stray voltages is appealing, and might explain
    > some strange or weird behaviors of our fish, including causes for HLLE in some fish,
    > no evidence has been shown to support such allegations.


    there is some evidence but as i hinted to the study basically says we need to study it
    which isnt enough.

    > Please, describe your setup in more details. What do you use for water circulation?
    > What devices are submersed in the water column? Where is the probe placed in the water?


    being a preditor tank the ONLY circulation is from the sump to tank (and back duh:) )
    the sump is a 20long
    the tank is a 75 and completely covered in diatom algae :(

    the only thing in the tank is the ray, a porcupine puffer, a 4" very fine sand bed (forget
    dsb the ray tosses it over and over) and a ground probe (not the only one, not always in
    there)


    as its outside and as outside is easy to get to dirt to ground it instead of using the
    ground wire from the main i ran a seperate wire 10gague solid copper to a 10' grounding
    rod burried about 9' deep its all of 4' from the sump to the rod the box from the main has
    a circuit breaker plus one of them hard cutoff switches the breaker is a gfci breaker,
    this is attached to both ground probes and the canister heater one ground probe is in the
    sump the other is in the tank. the heaters grounded but I THINK that its only the outside
    thats really grounded not the part that touches the water when its working, ive tested
    this a few times and to the best i could come up with this is the case.

    I have 2 skimmers both americal typhoon's ran with rio 3500's with the rio rtv adapter
    YES IVE CHECKED THEM THERE NOT THE CAUSE figured id get that straight out because w/o it
    ppl are gona jump on these poor rios :)

    the return pump which ive checked out over and over is a slightly older little giant 3-md
    something

    there is a canister heater which probibly hasnt even flickerd sence april and a fan on a
    thermostat its ran on sence april :)

    tank temp is kept around 72~74tops

    > > i get the same very very small stray voltage going through the probe

    >
    > What do you mean "voltage going through the probe"?
    > I have already explained here a mistake people do measuring the voltage.
    > You can prove me wrong by using very different voltmetter and measuring
    > the voltage again. Tell me please what you have read from both readings.


    ill have to dig up details ive posted them before and while ive done it a few times, id
    like to not mess up the details.
    ive used analog and digital meters in several AC and DC modes, all good meters.

    > > for all I can tell there is NOTHING in the tank adding to
    > > any current besides the tank/water/fish

    >
    > Tell me more how did you find out about this.


    trial and error and a few dead rays :( I should point out the "for all I can tell" part
    one more time.

    > > though I havent taken any scientificly acurate method of chasing down
    > > whatever is the cause, maybee i will probibly wont, i like the guy
    > > but what i have is working:)

    >
    > I am glad you are happy. But you can help others adding more details
    > about your setup. Please do.


    ill be glad to do any tests you can think of in the interest in providing a better place
    :), but I'd like to not re do them all, the last time I went through all of these I lost a
    ray, there $80 a pop Id rather not kiss this one bye bye along with the $80 to get a
    replacement (side note good ad for live aquaria every time ive had to replace them they
    have been real good about getting one that fit my wishes)

    I am not an electronics expert, but ive been around the block many times. all the major
    electrical work like the grounding rod and the run from the mains was done by a licensed
    electrcian as rqd by local code :) I even went as far as having it all inspected by a
    different guy just to make sure it wasnt something fsked up with the first guys wiring

    --
    richard reynolds
    richard.reynolds@usa.net
     
    richard reynolds, Jul 30, 2003
    #22
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  3. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Stephen Guest

    > The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
    > Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor where you stand
    > combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
    > put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
    > smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.


    Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
    wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
    grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe provides
    a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
    problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe the
    other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....

    However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
    essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted. More physics
    than I would like to think about this early. I am sure that a book could be
    written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
    discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus opinion....


    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:bg70e6.110.1@poczta.onet.pl...
    > "Stephen" <stephen@[nospam].net> wrote in message

    news:vieg3v15flauf7@corp.supernews.com...
    > > GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
    > > surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water!

    Metal
    > > Basins! etc...

    >
    > The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
    > Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor wehre you stand
    > combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
    > put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
    > smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.
    >
    > > You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not

    grounded....
    >
    > Right. Is there anybody claiming anything else here?
    > See my "birds sitting on a 20kV wire" example... :)
    >
    > > Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
    > > ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....

    >
    > I hope you do not derive all your knowledge about GFCI from its name ;-)
    >
    > I can easily imagine a scenario when GFCI will trip when grounding
    > will be perfect and DO NOT trip when grounding is faulty...
    > If your imagination does not work for some reason I can give you
    > full description of such scenarios.
    > Is then the GFCI name wrong? Let's change it! ;-)
    >
     
    Stephen, Jul 30, 2003
    #23
  4. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "J" <jose0779@comcast.net> wrote in message news:guIVa.16583$YN5.16888@sccrnsc01...
    > He's a troll I believe.


    Are you sure you want to start childish name calling game?

    > The answers to all his statements and questions
    > are in my post but he won't listen or understand.


    In which of your posts are all the answers?
     
    Pszemol, Jul 30, 2003
    #24
  5. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    Re: Grounding Probe ( something to read guys)

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vifk7nepp62u36@corp.supernews.com...
    > http://www.aquarium.net/1298/1298_3.shtml


    I read this before and I strongly disagree. Let me quote something terrible:
    "So if you now accept this as the normal case for SW tanks, you begin asking yourself
    if this is a problem. I have discussed this with several educated folks, and we have
    concluded that the minute currents in the tank, due to grounding with titanium probes,
    are much less significant than unterminated voltages on the order of tens or hundreds
    of volts" - this is totaly FALSE. And I have explained this already based on an
    example with standing on 10th floor and on the 2nd floor. Standing on the 10th floor
    (unterminated voltage) is not dangerous until you fall down (create a current flow).
    And by adding grounding probe to those detected stray voltages you are creating
    "minute currents" on the levels about 0.1-1mA even if all devices are in good order.
    I do not know Gerry Parker, but I can only say it is not enough to have an access to
    labolatory grade test equipment - you also have to know what are you exactly measuring.
    The test equipment unfortunately will not do the thinking part for you...

    > http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html


    This one, in oposite, is very good and convincing.
    "In conclusion, the addition of a "grounding probes" will guarantee an electrical
    current flow in your aquarium and may induce erratic behavior or disease in your fish.
    If you have defective aquarium appliances that are creating a current path in your
    aquarium by using the salt water as a conductive medium, then the solution is to repair
    the appliances or replace them... not divert a portion of the current into a "grounding probe"."

    This is exactly what I am trying to say here. "NO" to grounding probes - period.
     
    Pszemol, Jul 30, 2003
    #25
  6. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "Stephen" <stephen@[nospam].net> wrote in message news:vife7hh2sif71d@corp.supernews.com...
    > Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
    > wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
    > grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe provides
    > a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
    > problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe the
    > other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....


    This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
    If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
    enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?

    And, when you add grounding probe you are CAUSING current flows from
    a faulty device to the ground through the water column. GFCI are not
    designed to trip on current levels which stress your fish, so such
    currents can flow to the grounding probe unstopped. That is the reason
    I am strongly against the grounding probe as a cure to the faulty device
    leaking some electricity to the water. In the value range from 0-5mA
    GFCI will not react, so such currents as 5mA could flow from the faulty
    device to the ground with a help of this probe.

    > However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
    > essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted.


    I disagree. This is not a very good analogy. Situation in the fish
    tank is far more complicated. I would say that fish body resistance
    to the AC current is comparable to the salt water resistance so you
    cannot neglect currents flowing through the fish body in the calculation.
    The body of any living thing is full of electrolytes conducting
    electricity very well.

    > More physics than I would like to think about this early.
    > I am sure that a book could be
    > written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
    > discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus opinion....


    I see you are not willing to challenge my scenarios with GFCI, ok :)
     
    Pszemol, Jul 30, 2003
    #26
  7. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    CapFusion Guest

    > feel free to tell me shut up if I'm pestering you..lol

    Shut up! Heehe... Helping Marc to say it. He is just too nice to use those
    words.

    CapFusion,...
     
    CapFusion, Jul 30, 2003
    #27
  8. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    SG Guest

    Re: Grounding Probe ( something to read guys)

    In article <bg83f7.4e4.0@poczta.onet.pl>, Pszemol wrote:
    >"Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vifk7nepp62u36@corp.supernews.com...
    >> http://www.aquarium.net/1298/1298_3.shtml

    >
    >I read this before and I strongly disagree.


    Disagree all you want, but the paper is correct. The findings were
    based on scientific procedures and principles.

    >
    >> http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

    >
    >This one, in oposite, is very good and convincing.


    It is convincing, but incorrect. The author did not do any
    research to arrive at their conclusions.


    >If you have defective aquarium appliances that are creating a current path in your
    >aquarium by using the salt water as a conductive medium, then the solution is to repair
    >the appliances or replace them... not divert a portion of the current into a "grounding probe"."


    The grounding probe will cause the GFCI or circuit breaker to trip
    alerting you to the possibility of defective equipment.

    There will be currents flowing in an aquarium with or without the
    grounding probe. This is the nature of AC.
     
    SG, Jul 31, 2003
    #28
  9. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Stephen Guest

    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:bg83p1.4io.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    > "Stephen" <stephen@[nospam].net> wrote in message

    news:vife7hh2sif71d@corp.supernews.com...
    > > Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
    > > wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
    > > grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe

    provides
    > > a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
    > > problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe

    the
    > > other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....

    >
    > This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
    > If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
    > enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?


    I think you are confusing the functionality of a GFCI to a circuit
    breaker....
    GFCI detects current leaking to ground, not the neutral wire... Without a
    ground, thats all there would be, current leaking to neutral....






    > And, when you add grounding probe you are CAUSING current flows from
    > a faulty device to the ground through the water column. GFCI are not
    > designed to trip on current levels which stress your fish, so such
    > currents can flow to the grounding probe unstopped. That is the reason
    > I am strongly against the grounding probe as a cure to the faulty device
    > leaking some electricity to the water. In the value range from 0-5mA
    > GFCI will not react, so such currents as 5mA could flow from the faulty
    > device to the ground with a help of this probe.
    >
    > > However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
    > > essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted.

    >
    > I disagree. This is not a very good analogy. Situation in the fish
    > tank is far more complicated. I would say that fish body resistance
    > to the AC current is comparable to the salt water resistance so you
    > cannot neglect currents flowing through the fish body in the calculation.
    > The body of any living thing is full of electrolytes conducting
    > electricity very well.
    >
    > > More physics than I would like to think about this early.
    > > I am sure that a book could be
    > > written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
    > > discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus

    opinion....
    >
    > I see you are not willing to challenge my scenarios with GFCI, ok :)
     
    Stephen, Jul 31, 2003
    #29
  10. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "Stephen" <stephen@[nospam].net> wrote in message news:vigsb3s21hs9ef@corp.supernews.com...
    > I think you are confusing the functionality of a GFCI to a circuit
    > breaker....
    > GFCI detects current leaking to ground, not the neutral wire...
    > Without a ground, thats all there would be, current leaking to neutral....


    No, I am not confusing it. I fully understand how it works.

    And you are *almost* right saying it detects the current
    leaking to the ground wire. The exact statement is that GFCI
    detects a *difference* in the current value between hot and
    neutral wire. This difference can leak to the ground wire by
    the grounding probe *OR* through your hands, legs, the floor
    (or water pipes or gas line) then dirrectly to the ground.
     
    Pszemol, Jul 31, 2003
    #30
  11. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "SG" <abuse@kernelpanic.ca> wrote in message news:slrnbigmar.8q7.abuse@ogre.bishop...
    > In article <bg83p1.4io.0@poczta.onet.pl>, Pszemol wrote:
    > >
    > >This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
    > >If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
    > >enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?

    >
    > A GFCI will not trip unless a ground is present. Once a ground is
    > present a GFCI takes some time to trip (but it is very fast). I want
    > to be a ground for 120v for exactly zero seconds and no more.


    It is your choice :)
     
    Pszemol, Jul 31, 2003
    #31
  12. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "richard reynolds" <richard.reynolds@usa.net> wrote in message news:lHJVa.106850$R92.8383@news2.central.cox.net...
    > > My goal is not to force you to change your mind.
    > > My goal was to express my opinion on this subject.
    > > It is up to each of us to make the best decision
    > > in order to care for animals we take our responsibility for.

    >
    > I know ! :)


    Good :)

    > there is some evidence but as i hinted to the study basically
    > says we need to study it which isnt enough.


    Exactly :)

    > being a preditor tank the ONLY circulation is from the sump
    > to tank (and back duh:) )
    > the sump is a 20long
    > the tank is a 75 and completely covered in diatom algae :(
    >
    > the only thing in the tank is the ray, a porcupine puffer,
    > a 4" very fine sand bed (forget dsb the ray tosses it over
    > and over) and a ground probe (not the only one, not always in there)


    Is it glass tank?

    > as its outside and as outside is easy to get to dirt to ground it instead of using the
    > ground wire from the main i ran a seperate wire 10gague solid copper to a 10' grounding
    > rod burried about 9' deep its all of 4' from the sump to the rod the box from the main has
    > a circuit breaker plus one of them hard cutoff switches the breaker is a gfci breaker,
    > this is attached to both ground probes and the canister heater one ground probe is in the
    > sump the other is in the tank. the heaters grounded but I THINK that its only the outside
    > thats really grounded not the part that touches the water when its working, ive tested
    > this a few times and to the best i could come up with this is the case.
    >
    > I have 2 skimmers both americal typhoon's ran with rio 3500's with the rio rtv adapter
    > YES IVE CHECKED THEM THERE NOT THE CAUSE figured id get that straight out because w/o it
    > ppl are gona jump on these poor rios :)
    >
    > the return pump which ive checked out over and over is a slightly older little giant 3-md
    > something
    >
    > there is a canister heater which probibly hasnt even flickerd sence april and a fan on a
    > thermostat its ran on sence april :)


    The only way to eliminate this heater from the picture is completely
    remove it from the AC outlet. Assumtion it does not flicker because
    water is hotter than the thermostate setup is probably true, but it
    does not say if we have current leak from it to water or not...
    It could leak even if the thermostate does not turn it on. It could be
    one pole switch, so one pole can be constantly on.

    > > > i get the same very very small stray voltage going through the probe

    > >
    > > What do you mean "voltage going through the probe"?
    > > I have already explained here a mistake people do measuring the voltage.
    > > You can prove me wrong by using very different voltmetter and measuring
    > > the voltage again. Tell me please what you have read from both readings.

    >
    > ill have to dig up details ive posted them before and while ive
    > done it a few times, id like to not mess up the details. ive used
    > analog and digital meters in several AC and DC modes, all good meters.


    I would be very surprised if you measured the same stray voltages
    with different types of meters :) Their readins will mostly depend
    on their internal resistance compared to the resistance of the devices
    insulation.

    > > > for all I can tell there is NOTHING in the tank adding to
    > > > any current besides the tank/water/fish

    > >
    > > Tell me more how did you find out about this.

    >
    > trial and error and a few dead rays :(
    > I should point out the "for all I can tell" part
    > one more time.


    Right... and since I am not a ray expert I have no idea what was
    stressing your fish. In terms of electicity in other hand, I know
    what I am saying... :)

    > > I am glad you are happy. But you can help others adding more details
    > > about your setup. Please do.

    >
    > ill be glad to do any tests you can think of in
    > the interest in providing a better place :),
    > but I'd like to not re do them all,


    No, if everything is working - do not change anything... :)
    I would be only interested in two things:
    - what is the influence of you heater being off to the stray voltages
    - what is the reading of stray voltages from a set of different meters :)

    > I am not an electronics expert, but ive been around the block many times. all the major
    > electrical work like the grounding rod and the run from the mains was done by a licensed
    > electrcian as rqd by local code :) I even went as far as having it all inspected by a
    > different guy just to make sure it wasnt something fsked up with the first guys wiring


    Good. I have no doubt your grounding is good.

    BTW - do you have pictures of your outside tank setup?
    I am interested in seeing it if you have them available.
     
    Pszemol, Jul 31, 2003
    #32
  13. > Is it glass tank?
    yes

    > The only way to eliminate this heater from the picture is completely
    > remove it from the AC outlet. Assumtion it does not flicker because
    > water is hotter than the thermostate setup is probably true, but it
    > does not say if we have current leak from it to water or not...
    > It could leak even if the thermostate does not turn it on. It could be
    > one pole switch, so one pole can be constantly on.


    sorry didnt give enough details, the heater isnt leaking ive checked it a number of times,
    both removal from E supply and total removal from tank, my reference to flickering is the
    tank temp must be slightly colder than a normal reef, and its outside in SoCal it rained
    today and the low is probibly 80F, i was just providing as much detail as i could and
    missed a step.


    > I would be very surprised if you measured the same stray voltages
    > with different types of meters :) Their readins will mostly depend
    > on their internal resistance compared to the resistance of the devices
    > insulation.


    i used at least 4, 1 is analog and a tad old late '80s, 2 of which are crappy digitals
    well $$$ kinda crappy but not analog or $2500 digitals either, the tectronics is a good
    ociliscope with a V probe and one of them tectronics isolators(forgot what its called)
    plug probe into it so you dont screw up scope when messing with things


    > Right... and since I am not a ray expert I have no idea what was
    > stressing your fish. In terms of electicity in other hand, I know
    > what I am saying... :)


    I just like the blue spot he is cool (actually think its a she but not 100% sure)

    > No, if everything is working - do not change anything... :)
    > I would be only interested in two things:
    > - what is the influence of you heater being off to the stray voltages
    > - what is the reading of stray voltages from a set of different meters :)


    ive done it w/o the heater when I was trying to isolate the issue, as for the readings
    ill either have to re take them or search around for the last time i posted them.

    > Good. I have no doubt your grounding is good.
    >
    > BTW - do you have pictures of your outside tank setup?
    > I am interested in seeing it if you have them available.


    i can make them available, but i was serious its covered in algae :(

    --
    richard reynolds
    richard.reynolds@usa.net
     
    richard reynolds, Jul 31, 2003
    #33
  14. Pszemol wrote:

    > Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
    > How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :)
    > How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :)


    Actually, the GCFI (I believe that is the correct order of initials) is grounded when
    it is wired into the wall.

    And I believe I read that 10mA trips it.

    Marc

    --
    Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
     
    Marc Levenson, Jul 31, 2003
    #34
  15. Marc Levenson <melev@swbell.net> wrote in message news:3F2897BC.BD5D61A5@swbell.net...
    > > Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
    > > How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :)
    > > How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :)

    >
    > Actually, the GCFI (I believe that is the correct order of initials)


    both gfci and gcfi are pointing to the same gfi or electronics device that seperates the
    supply from the devices when a ground fault is found. ANSI calls it a GFCI so if one were
    to argue there one of the ones setting the standards so they are correct :|

    ive seen both used though, so is a mandarin goby correct really it is because its the
    'common name' not meaining much when it comes to its scientific name which neither has
    mandarin or goby in it. same aplies here

    > is grounded when it is wired into the wall.


    your missing a step but thats ok
    the devices ground means little (not nothing) it really has little to do with "ground" as
    a third wire,
    in easy terms it compars what is going to a device from what is coming back, if there
    different it trips
    in electronics if there is a difference then some current is going to ground and its
    called a ground fault, it wont trip if there is a short, because the current going out the
    supply and coming back on the return will be the same, even if its too much current it
    doesnt know the difference.

    > And I believe I read that 10mA trips it.


    you can buy these in more and less sensitive models depending on there use.

    >
    > Marc
    >
    > --
    > Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    > Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    > Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
    >

    --
    richard reynolds
    richard.reynolds@usa.net
     
    richard reynolds, Jul 31, 2003
    #35
  16. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    Re: Grounding Probe ( something to read guys)

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vii6qjo16j903e@corp.supernews.com...
    > No Marc and after more than 10 years even the electrical wizards (which I am not) are
    > still arguing. I don't think anyone has a real answer as it really hasn't been tested as
    > far as I'm concerned, I just hear statements and no data. Fact of the matter is, that even
    > with GFIC's there is still "Induced Voltage" in the water in aquariums and I don't mean
    > "stray voltage" witch is another issue. Any electrical device in or even near an aquarium
    > will induce voltage into the water, it has been measured 100's of times. Power cords,
    > cables, heaters, etc., all generate an electrical field in water, which can be measured.
    > An Amp Clamp is an electrical device electricians use to measure amps, you don't connect
    > anything to it, the wire in question is just placed in the "C' like ring and the number of
    > amp's is directly proportional to the induced field the cord generates. You also don't
    > need to plug in a fluorescent light bulb in either, if you are close enough to a high
    > tension power line, the generated fields by themselves will light the bulb.


    Right. But there is no way to shield every electric device or wires in the walls
    to get rid of this electric noise in our modern society... You would have to get
    rid of TV-sets, computers, electric pumps&motors, lights definetely and you will
    still not recreate conditions similar to what is in the ocean, couple of miles from
    the shore, couple hundred meters deep :) Also, we have to remember about the dualism
    of the electric energy becoming magnetic energy and vice versa... Every single change
    in an electric field will cause a change in magnetic field so the water as a conductor,
    grounded or not, will never be quiet in electro-magnetic terms as long as there is
    a source of electromagnetic noise near by. There is no ways to recreate ocean in 100%
    and grounding probe does not really help here much.

    BTW - Amp Clamp is working simply as transformer or Hal sensor. In the first
    case it just measure current flowing in the wire, not induced voltage...

    > All public
    > aquariums with shark tanks have the water grounded, with a probe, to eliminate any stray
    > or induced voltage, as Elasmobranches have what is called a Lorenzini Organ, which can
    > detect, in seawater, 0.005 uV or 5nV / cm @ 0.33 meters.


    I just wonder what kind of current has to flow in the seawater to generate
    such voltage difference...

    > You will never find a piece of
    > the ocean that generates say 18 V induced, but a power head may/will. If it is not in the
    > ocean it should not be in a tank. I am not questioning the stray voltage issue, just the
    > induced voltage issue, they are not the same. All of which means, IMHO, that a GFIC w/
    > probe or a GFIC / without a probe doesn't solve the two problems. Maybe someone can
    > invent, just for us, a GFIC which also eliminates any Induced Voltage, without the
    > potential side effect of a GFIC with a probe


    The voltage is always measured between two points. So when you are talking about
    powerhead induced voltage, lets say 18V, are refering to what two points?
    To the ground? Or two points in different places inside tank?
    In the first case - fish does not care about voltages relative to the ground
    unless it does have contact with this ground. Similarly like birds on 20kV wire.

    > Pszemol
    >
    > It is rather odd that you disagree with Gerry Parker but agree with Robert Michelson,
    > when Michelson states
    >
    > "A reference on the web for empirical data on aquarium voltage and current is"
    > http://www.aquarium.net/1298/1298_3.shtml , which is Gerry's article.


    Garry did not make mistake in using scope and collecting data from it.
    He has measured different things correctly... He made a big mistake
    interpreting collected data - thats all :) When you wear a wool sweter
    there are thousands volts generated and you can often feel a spark.
    Should I be affraid touching wool sweter in the same way I should be
    affraid touching 20kV coming out from the electric plant? :)
    It looks to me the science behind voltages, amperes, ohms is kind of
    fuzzy for Garry and his "educated folks". But it is only my observation.
    You do not have to agree with me, of course :)

    > I think Gerry
    > pretty much know his P & Q 's and knows how and what he is measuring


    I do not know Garry, so I cannot tell you who is he, but obviously he must
    be also scared like hell when he is elevated at the Observation Deck in
    any tower like Hancock, Sears in Chicago. I am affraid to jump, but I am
    fine with standing there :))
     
    Pszemol, Jul 31, 2003
    #36
  17. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vii7c5mpak1i49@corp.supernews.com...
    > http://www-training.llnl.gov/training/hc/Electrical/GFCIworks.html
    >
    > http://www.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm


    Good idea of posting such info - it will help folks not familiar
    very much with electricity understand this discussion better...

    Also, I can verify I was understanding correctly how it works,
    so people jumping so quickly to correct me, or call a troll,
    have a chance now to correct themselves :)
     
    Pszemol, Jul 31, 2003
    #37
  18. Re: Grounding Probe ( something to read guys)

    <huge snip>
    > as Elasmobranches have what is called a Lorenzini Organ, which can
    > detect, in seawater, 0.005 uV or 5nV / cm @ 0.33 meters.


    thanks was inches from looking the name of that organ up

    <another huge snip>

    > --
    > Boomer

    --
    richard reynolds
    richard.reynolds@usa.net
     
    richard reynolds, Jul 31, 2003
    #38
  19. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    J Guest

    Re: Grounding Probe ( something to read guys)

    Thank you boomer for finally setting people on the right road.
    Some here say a GFCI doesn't need a ground. I'm like thats how it works it
    needs the ground.
    ohh well have fun arguing with people here.

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:vijg6odekaus97@corp.supernews.com...
    > Pszemol
    >
    > Just for you, this should make you happy :)
    >
    > "Ok. I finally did it. I finally figured out the whole mystery of stray
    > voltages
    > in a tank. I'll explain it, but first a disclaimer:
    >
    > All tanks should have a ground probe and a GFI socket. Parts of this
    > document talk about doing unorthodox things to outlets and ground
    > probes-- which fall under the category of "Kids, don't do this at home".
    >
    > Other parts talk imply that ground probes are not all that good, while
    > is arguably true for your fish, it is not true for YOU. Don't risk
    > death.
    > Use a ground probe and GFI socket. Your tank is not worth your
    > life. We now return to our regularly scheduled program...
    >
    >
    > It happens all the time. Someone takes a multimeter and measures
    > the voltage between their water and earth ground. They get 30 to
    > 60 volts and then panic, thinking that this is somehow bad and that
    > they should do something to get rid of it. They then post a question
    > on the net and they get dozens of answers saying the same thing,
    > "The stray voltage is caused by electrical induction with your pumps.
    > Use a ground probe to get rid of it".
    >
    > Sometimes, this stray voltage is fingered as the cause to fish stress,
    > Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE), and other mysterious fish
    > deaths.
    >
    > I'll cut to the chase here and say that both of these are incorrect.
    > Induction is not the cause of stray voltages. Ground probes are
    > not going to remove it. And it cannot possibly be the cause of
    > fish deaths. I can't imagine how these myths got started, especially
    > since it is very easy for someone to find the true cause of
    > stray voltages.
    >
    > The true source of the stray voltages is capacitive coupling,
    > not inductive coupling and not resistive. Ground probes (or a
    > multimeter) actually complete the circuit for electricity to flow.
    > Since electricity doesn't flow unless the circuit is completed,
    > electricity won't be flowing in a tank without a ground probe.
    > Therefore, mysterious fish deaths in tanks without a ground
    > probe cannot be attributed to stray voltages since current is
    > not flowing in the tank to begin with.
    >
    > I'm about to go into a long, technical explanation for the cause
    > of stray voltages. If you don't want to read it, you can stop
    > here. I've said/typed all the important practical information
    > already. I realize that what I'm saying goes against decades of
    > common misbelief so some proof is required. What follows
    > is the proof.
    >
    > For the proof, I assume that you know basic electricity. Ohms
    > law, resistor dividers, and the general properties of transformers,
    > capacitors, and inductors. You don't need a great deal of this
    > knowledge, but enough so that you can picture what's going
    > on since there are no pictures in this post.
    >
    > To find the source of this stray voltage, we must eliminate sources
    > that don't fit the evidence. Possible sources are induction, resistive
    > coupling, and capacitive coupling. There are other possible sources,
    > but the odds of these being the cause are so remote that we can ignore
    > them.
    >
    > Here is the evidence that can be easily measured:
    > o The "stray voltage" changes (and is repeatable) depending on what
    >
    > is turned on-- including the lights.
    > o If you put a resistor between the ground probe and earth ground,
    > and measure the current through the resistor, you will measure
    > up to about 40 uA. The voltage across the resistor will depend
    >
    > on the value of the resistor, according to ohms law.
    > o The stray voltage/current does not change with the position of
    > the ground probe.
    > o The voltage measured between two ground probes is zero,
    > regardless of their position or orientation.
    > o If you disconnect the NEUTRAL line to the pumps/lights/etc. while
    > leaving
    > HOT connected, the stray voltage almost DOUBLES!
    > o The resistance, as measured by my multimeter, between the ground
    > probe and neutral/hot of the pumps/lights/etc. is infinite
    > (I.E., open).
    >
    > Let's start with induction, since that is the common myth. If this
    > were happening, then electrically the tank would look like a
    > transformer.
    > The wiring in the pumps/heaters/lights would work like the primary
    > coil of the transformer. The water itself would be the secondary coil.
    >
    > Unfortunately, the evidence does not support the induction theory.
    > In a transformer, if current is not flowing in the primary then no
    > current
    > will flow in the secondary. If induction were the cause then
    > disconnecting
    > HOT would cause the stray voltage to go to zero, not double. If
    > induction
    > were the cause, then almost zero current would flow through the ground
    > probe but we have 40 uA. If induction were the cause, then moving the
    > ground probe around the tank, or using two ground probes, would give
    > us different results. Conclusion: It's not induction!
    >
    > So that leaves resistive coupling, or capacitive coupling.
    >
    > Electrically, resistive coupling would look like a voltage divider. One
    >
    > resistor of the divider would be the insulation (or lack there of)
    > surrounding the pumps. The other resistor would be the multimeter
    > itself, the ground probe, or a real resistor that we put in.
    >
    > You can actually calculate the "resistance" of the insulation using
    > ohms law. Let's assume that we have 25 uA of current flowing.
    > Using ohms law then X ohms = 120 volts / 0.000025 Amps, or
    > 4.8 Meg ohms. My multimeter is calibrated for up to 40.0 ohms,
    > so it should be able to measure this without problems. But since
    > it measured as an open circuit, they resistance theory can't be
    > correct.
    >
    > Two notes about resistance... You'll notice that I didn't take
    > into account the resistance of the water or the resistor that I used
    > to make the current measurements. That's because those things
    > have much less resistance than the estimated 4.8 meg ohms. It
    > was a shortcut for sure, but the resistance of the water and
    > resistor was less than 100 kohms, or about 2% of the total
    > resistance.
    >
    >
    > Also... The way most people measure the stray voltage is by
    > placing the multimeter between the tank and earth ground.
    > In this case, the multimeter itself acts as one resistor in the
    > voltage divider. The multimeter has a high, but finite,
    > resistance. That's why I used a separate resistor
    > between the ground probe and earth ground, and measured
    > the voltage across this resistor. The resistor was anywhere
    > from 100 to 100k ohms. When you have a two resistors in
    > parallel, one of low value and the other of high value, the low
    > value resistor will be dominant. The high value resistor (the
    > multimeter) will not play a huge electrical role and mess up
    > the measured values. In this way, I could be assured that my
    > measurements were correct.
    >
    > With capacitive coupling, you must know that a capacitor
    > can behave like a resistor when an AC current is applied to
    > it. The resistance is proportional to, and increases with,
    > frequency. The formula for calculating the resistance at
    > a given frequency is: Resistance = 1 / (2 * Pi * Freq * Cap),
    > where resistance is in ohms, freq is in Hz, and Cap is in Farads.
    >
    > So, with capacitive coupling is set up exactly like the resistive
    > coupling above but with a cap as the electrical link between
    > the AC Mains and the water. If we expect to see a 4.8 meg ohm
    > resistor, then we can use the above formula to find the expected
    > capacitance. So... 4.8 meg Ohms = 1 / (2 * Pi * 60 * Cap).
    > Solving for Cap gives us 552 pF.
    >
    > My multimeter will measure capacitance, but it isn't calibrated
    > into the <1000 pF range. So I expected some "not quite right numbers".
    > I measured the capacitance between the ground probe and hot or
    > neutral at around 1100 pF. This was suprising, since I didn't expect
    > the numbers to be that far off. That's when I did the "disconnect
    > neutral and leave hot connected" experiment. In this experiment the
    > stray voltage doubled! Then the numbers made sense.
    >
    > At 1100 pF, 60 Hz, and 25 uA, the resistance of the cap should be
    > about 2.4 meg ohms. This should cause double the current to flow
    > through our voltage divider, which causes our measured voltages to
    > be double. The evidence matches this perfectly when neutral is
    > disconnected.
    >
    > With neutral connected, the AVERAGE VOLTAGE inside the pumps,
    > lights, etc. is exactly half of the 120 volts applied to it. That's
    > because
    > of the voltage drop from the current flowing through it. When we
    > disconnect neutral, there is no current flowing so there is no voltage
    > drop. When there is no current running through the pumps, then
    > the average voltage is 120 volts. This explains why the voltage
    > doubles/halves depending on the neutral connection.
    >
    > So, now all the evidence points to capacitive coupling!
    >
    > For capacitive coupling to work, a circuit must be formed.
    > This is normally done by a ground probe (or the multimeter).
    > If there is no circuit, then there cannot possibly be any current
    > flowing!
    >
    > People claim that once they add the ground probe then they
    > cannot measure any more stray voltage-- thus the ground
    > probe must have removed it! This is, of course, not true.
    > Essentially, what's happening is they are measuring the
    > voltage drop across a zero ohm resistor (the ground probe).
    > And of course there will be no voltage drop across such a
    > resistor! That's why they claim that it went away.
    >
    > Naturally, life is more complex than that. It's not a zero ohm
    > resistor, since you have to take into account the resistance of
    > the water and the proximity of everything. But generally
    > speaking, adding the ground probe will bring the measured
    > "stray voltage" very close to zero.
    >
    > Conclusions:
    >
    > 1. Very Important! Use a ground probe and GFI for your safety.
    > 2. "Stray Voltage" is caused by capacitive coupling, not induction.
    >
    > 3. There is nothing you can do about it, unless you don't use
    > electricity in your tanks (including lights).
    > 4. A ground probe will cause, not prevent, current from flowing in
    > a tank.
    > 5. The lack of current flowing has never been attributed to the
    > death
    > of anything (except the lack of the normal electrical impulses
    > in the brain and nervous system). So, ground probes cannot
    > possibly solve things like HLLE, fish stress, etc.
    >
    >
    > I hope that this removes a lot of the popular myths that have been
    > circulating for decades about stray voltages in our tanks!
    >
    > David Kessner
    >
    >
    > "I've been employed as an electrical engineer for almost the last 20
    > years, and everything that David wrote is completely legit. The only

    claim
    > that I can't back up is the one concerning whether electrical fields

    and/or
    > currents can cause diseases in fish, but that's only becuase I don't know
    > much about the physiology of fish.."
    >
    > Hans Lehmann
    >
    >
    > So the issue is still unsolved on whether fish are affected or not
    >
    > I'm surew you will enjou all of this in this thread
    >
    >

    http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3601eecc.16483120
    %40NEWS.erols.
    >

    com&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dskates%2Bgroup:rec.aquaria.marine.reefs%26hl%3
    Den%26lr%3D%26
    > ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D3601eecc.16483120%2540NEWS.erols.com%26rnum%3D6
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    J, Aug 1, 2003
    #39
  20. ricksli@nospam.optonline.net

    SG Guest

    Re: Grounding Probe ( something to read guys)

    Boomer quoted Someone who wrote:

    > o The resistance, as measured by my multimeter, between the ground
    > probe and neutral/hot of the pumps/lights/etc. is infinite
    >(I.E., open).


    This is odd. In North America the resistance between ground and
    neutral should be zero as neutral is connected to ground at the power
    panel. The resistance between hot and ground or neutral should be
    infinite.


    >Let's start with induction, since that is the common myth.


    The author claims there is no inductive coupling, but we know there
    must be. When there is a moving magnetic field (from powerheads and
    other pumps) there will be current flow. It may be correct to say that
    the inductive coupling is minimal. The other paper supports this theory.


    >If induction were the cause, then moving the
    >ground probe around the tank, or using two ground probes, would give
    >us different results.


    This I have serious problems with. I would like to see the theory that
    supports the argument.
     
    SG, Aug 1, 2003
    #40
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