Heaven forbid but another tank cycling question

[nodogrules]

Greetings!

I have a tank cycling question. After a year of freshwater tropicals, my kids "nudged" me to make the jump to saltwater (it didn't take much). I have had our new tank set up for twelve days (prior to that I was warming the water, getting the salinity right, hooking up equipment, etc.).

Here are the details of my setup:

55 gallon tank
38 watt standard flourescent aquarium hood (for now)
Rena FilStar XP3 (up to 175 gal, rated 350gph)
In the filter i've got (from top to bottom) the micro filtration pad, carbon media, fluval pre-filter media, two layers of fluval biomax filter media, fine foam media, course foam media)
seaclone protein skimmer (for better or for worse...seems to be working fine)
using instant ocean and tap water with dechlorinator added (our city tap water is very pure per water reports so i'm going to try that first)
40 lbs live sand
30lbs crushed coral
20 lbs bare argonite rock on top of sand & coral
20 lbs live rock on top of argonite
saltwater master test kit

Per the attached water test history screenshot, I had ammonia present for days 2-4 and possibly from days 5-9 (I didn't test my water days 5-9 and my next test was on day 10 during which no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates showed up on the test).
My ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate level tests have been at zero for the past four days (possibly more days during time period i wasn't testing).
I originally thought I bought 20# of "cured" live rock given the stuff growing on it, lots of aiptasia hitchikers (that i've killed with aiptasiax). The rock went right from the LFS tank to a cooler (covered with wet paper towels) and then directly into my tank).
Based on the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels and under the belief that i was using cured rock with all the live sand, I assumed that my tank had cycled, and when all my levels test zero on day 10, I added two damsels and 1 turbo snail, which BTW are still doing just fine.

However, during my last visit the LFS told me it was not cured live rock. They also told me my tank hadn't cycled yet (this might be true....i'm not sure which is why I am posting).

I also did a 10% "test" water change on day 8 just to see if I had my water transfer system set up right.

Here is my question: Based on the info here, do you think the tank has cycled yet (and I missed the higher nitrite/nitrate levels during the time period I didn't test), or hasn't the tank started to cycle yet?

If the answer is not obvious, could I potentially "test" the cycling ability of the tank by adding some household ammonia or other means? (i've seen this mentioned as a potential cycling approach on various forums). I converted my 10gal tropical tank to a water change "prep" tank and keep it filled with 10gal of ready-to-go change water. I could potentially use this as a quarantine tank during a cycling test so that i wouldn't torture the damsels....however this is assuming that i can catch them which i'm not sure i can do as they are always zipping around the tank.
I hope I didn't provide too much info...I just figured the more details the better.

Thanks for your help and insight!

 

[ErinCahir]

EDIT: I'm going to change my answer.
If you've had the fish in there for a week and it hasn't kicked anything off, I'd say you're cycled.
However, I'm going to suggest taking the damsels back to the store anyway. They can be very aggressive and will most likely bully anything else you put in your tank.

 

[AmberSunrise]

I also bought live rock and got ammonia after a few days and never did see nitrites or nitrates spike so after 3 weeks of waiting I added my first fish. After 3 months my tank now has about 5-10ppm of nitrates right before water change time but it still never really spiked up high.

So in other words I experienced it the same way you did and I think that using live rock and sand does emliminate some of the wait time I guess part of the cycle if you have a good amount of bacteria.

Damsels are supposed to be really hardy which is why people use them to cycle (even though its kind of mean) but if they are doing ok I woudnt worry about it.

I would wait at least a few weeks before adding any more fish to give the bactera time to catch up but if you want more snail or crabs or easy to care for corals then I say go for it.

Good luck!

 

[sen5241b]

The ONLY way to know if the cycle is over is to test ammonia, test nitrites and test nitrates. Monitor the cycle.

Also, about the Rena FilStar XP3: Canister filters are not generally left permanently hooked up to salt water tanks because detritus will build up in them to dangerous levels. (You could clean it out completeley every 3 days but this will get old fast). Nitrates can rise quite high in FW tanks before they become a problem but not in salt water tanks --nitrates must stay low especially for corals but also for fish. Some fish, such as mandarins, are much more sensitive to nitrates than other fish.

Do not get rid of the canister filter though. Keep it around for emergency situations such as a rise in toxins like copper, ammonia, high nitrates then pack it with the right media and run it for 2 or 3 days.

 

[nodogrules]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback, I really appreciate it.

AmberSunrise, thx for the advice on waiting a little longer and the cleanup crew. I think the kids would enjoy those.

ErinCahir, interesting comment on the damsels. I intentionally picked a white damsel and a yellowtail (not striped or dark colors) because I had heard they tend to be less aggressive (although i imagine that may also depend on the temperament of the individual fish?). However, I have been concerned about that. No returns on sw fish if i can even catch them...i'm not sure if there is a tank orphanage i could take them to somewhere.

We were thinking of eventually getting a pair of clowns, and maybe a small puffer (which i heard can also be "semi-aggressive", so still just exploring that possibility).

We like the damsels...do you think it would be ok to see how they do once i add another fish, and yank them if they get nasty?

sen5241b, can you help me understand your canister filter comment? When I purchased I had assumed that some sort of "robust" bio and mechanical filtration was needed but I didn't have the stomach for a full-blown sump. I assume some sort of filter should be running in addition to the live rock? Or would it be a good idea to run the sump less often and put it on a timer....and add a powerhead for o2 exchange? I have to admit, i do rely on the filter and the skimmer for water turbulence for o2 exchange in lieu of a powerhead...not sure if that is appropriate or not. I also got a larger filter so that i could clean the filter monthly vs. more frequently. Could I just adjust the amount/type of media in the filter to continue to use it? What would you recommend in place of a canister? I'm assuming that at this point with only 20# of live rock that I probably don't have enough cured rock to do all of the bio filtration. From what I saw, sumps seemed more involved than I wanted to get for now (although maybe that is just my inexperience). Thoughts?

Thx again to all for the help.

 

[ErinCahir]

I do think you can "wait and see" if they pick on other fish. Most stores will offer credit or trade for fish and corals. I think you can probably find one in your area that will take them back.
I would pass on the puffer. They will eat all of your inverts and are very messy.
You will also need to wait three weeks from the time you added your damsels, and unless it is the pair of clowns, add only one fish at a time.

 

[sen5241b]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback, I really appreciate it.

sen5241b, can you help me understand your canister filter comment? When I purchased I had assumed that some sort of "robust" bio and mechanical filtration was needed but I didn't have the stomach for a full-blown sump. I assume some sort of filter should be running in addition to the live rock? Or would it be a good idea to run the sump less often and put it on a timer....and add a powerhead for o2 exchange? I have to admit, i do rely on the filter and the skimmer for water turbulence for o2 exchange in lieu of a powerhead...not sure if that is appropriate or not. I also got a larger filter so that i could clean the filter monthly vs. more frequently. Could I just adjust the amount/type of media in the filter to continue to use it? What would you recommend in place of a canister? I'm assuming that at this point with only 20# of live rock that I probably don't have enough cured rock to do all of the bio filtration. From what I saw, sumps seemed more involved than I wanted to get for now (although maybe that is just my inexperience). Thoughts?

Thx again to all for the help.

The problem with canister filters is that detritus (fish poop and dead stuff including microscopic dead stuff) ) builds up in them. Detritus can break down into ammonia, nitrates, nitrites and phosphates. You do not want a "detritus trap' of any kind in your tank. Nitrates of a few parts per million will start killing corals, at 10 or 20 ppm some fish and inverts like Mandarin dragonettes will get sick --higher and everything can die.

If you are going to leave the canister hooked up, you will have to clean it out completely about every 3 days --maybe 5. I would not put it on a timer and run if on and off. The water in the canister will get stagnant and cause problems.

The best filtration is live rock, lots of cheato in a fuge with strong light, needle wheel skimmers, sand beds, good flow (prevents detritus traps), phosphate and other types of reactors. (I do not like Deep sand beds (DSBs) of 5 or 6 inches because they can become detritus traps!)

If you really want to use the canister filter on a regular basis you might try packing the first chamber with lots of floss and just changing out the floss every 2 or 3 days. The idea is that the floss prevents detritus from settling deeper in the canister --but this would be an experiement.

 

[nodogrules]

sen5241b, thx for more insight, which of course triggers more questions in my head.

So from the sounds of it, biofiltration in the canister filter along with the live rock/live sand/a cleanup crew isn't a good idea....is it because the poop gets sucked out of the water before it settles out for the rock/sand/a cleanup crew can take care of it? I originally thought the biofiltration media in the filter canister was supposed to take care of that, and that the leftover nitrates would be taken care of by a combo of water changes and live rock/sand/cleanup crew?

If I have eventually 40# of live rock (20# live curing, 20# new argonite that will cure into live rock) in the aquarium is that enough rock? Until that is established does it make sense to keep using the canister with the biofiltration media in it? Or by a fuge do you mean i need to have additional live rock in a sump or somewhere underneath the tank where the water flows through? I'm just trying to get a feel for exactly what i would need to add to my system if i removed the filter canister (I'm all for it as the frequent canister maintenance can get a little messay). Would the filter floss plus potentially putting live rock into the canister filter be another option? How would I get good flow if I didn't implement a full-blown sump system?

Thx again.

The problem with canister filters is that detritus (fish poop and dead stuff including microscopic dead stuff) ) builds up in them. Detritus can break down into ammonia, nitrates, nitrites and phosphates. You do not want a "detritus trap' of any kind in your tank. Nitrates of a few parts per million will start killing corals, at 10 or 20 ppm some fish and inverts like Mandarin dragonettes will get sick --higher and everything can die.

If you are going to leave the canister hooked up, you will have to clean it out completely about every 3 days --maybe 5. I would not put it on a timer and run if on and off. The water in the canister will get stagnant and cause problems.

The best filtration is live rock, lots of cheato in a fuge with strong light, needle wheel skimmers, sand beds, good flow (prevents detritus traps), phosphate and other types of reactors. (I do not like Deep sand beds (DSBs) of 5 or 6 inches because they can become detritus traps!)

If you really want to use the canister filter on a regular basis you might try packing the first chamber with lots of floss and just changing out the floss every 2 or 3 days. The idea is that the floss prevents detritus from settling deeper in the canister --but this would be an experiement.