hermits, snails, and such....

R

reeferman

Reefing newb
Im ver new to saltwater aquariums...I just set up a 55gal with 75lbs of nice live rock from my buddies tank, along with some zooanthods and sea fans he gave me...at first i just wanted a tank only to catch my own critters but now that i got a really good light and pump and rocks n such for almost nothing i don't want to put predator species in that will eat the soft corals.

so my question is....I went out snorkeling behind my house today and along with some gobis i caught a bunch of hermit crabs, snails, orange welches, and green mussels....this is all from central florida gulf of mexico. now the pet shop guys tell me that i can't use local species cause they'll eat my coral and such but i think hes just saying that so i buy everything from him.

what do you think...is it ok for those snails and hermies, and welches to be put in there?

also got a little stone crab...are those guys okay with other species in my tank and what the heck do i feed that guy? thanks
 
What's a welch? I've never heard of one. Do you mean a whelk? That's the thing, unless you know FOR SURE exactly what species of crab, snail, etc., these things are, you don't know if they are going to eat your corals. You have no idea what you are bringing back to your tank. Several crab and snail species are predatorial and will kill the good things in your tank. Especially whelks. They are known to completely destroy corals.

Have you looked into whether or not it's legal to take livestock from the ocean for your tank? I believe it is illegal in many places... You face heavy fines and/or jail time by doing so.

Also, the likelihood of survival of these animals in your tank is very low, since your tank is so new and not well established.

You ask what to feed your stone crab -- that's why you should not be taking wild species. You don't know how to care for them properly, and it will probably end up dying.

The animals sold in fish stores are often tank-bred or aquacultured. We are familiar with their needs and know how to take care of them and know what they eat. We know what other animals they are or are not compatible with. You don't know any of that for animals that you take from the wild.

Another reason why you shouldn't take stuff from the wild is because if you try to put it back, you risk introducing all sorts of diseases and non-native hitchhikers back into the native populations. This can decimate the native ecosystem and native communities.

Just a bad idea all around. I agree 100% with the fish store guy. Sorry. Not only do I have an aquarium, BUT I am also a biologist. So I have a different perspective on this whole thing too.
 
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Bifferwine...thanks for your concerns. I knew there would be some biologists that would say these things to me. i respect your views most certainly. as far as it being illegal to collect specimens where i live...it may be, but i live on an island off the mainland that only has 5 houses on it...no roads, no rules. i just wanted to start a local specimens tank and do it all myself....it takes me hours to get to the pet store so Im posting here just to ensure that i do things right.

the 75lbs of live rock i have has been established in my friends tank for a couple years so hopefully my tank will be good enough for the new specimens i put into it. and as far as me killing my stone crab cause i dont know what to feed it...i seriously doubt that will happen. i catch shrimp out the wazoo in front of my house...i also have frozen plankton and brines, but just figured id ask what else people feed their stonies.

also...i don't think there is any issue with me harming my local waters if i put stuff from my tank back into it...everything in the tank is from the local waters...even the live rock from my buddy's tank sat in his canal for a month after he broke his tank down. i do have 2 zooanthods(sp.?) that he gave me(which i dont even really want cause they're not local), but i can't see that effecting anything...right?

i understand your concerns...but trust me im not trying to harm anything at all...i think i can take of them well...especially with a little help from you guys!
 
I don't think biff was accusing you of wanting to harm your environment. These things tend to happen even by accident. I have worked so hard on my tank, I would hate to add anything to it that I do not already possess a large fund of knowledge about their care. That is just me. I also don't mind helping out those people who are trying to make a living. Life has been good to me and I want to return the favor, even if it means paying an extra two bucks for a fish or coral. Just my opinion. Shoot, Biff, here I am sounding like a bleeding-heart pansy liberal..lol

-Dr Marco :sfish::sfish:
 
No Dr. Marco is right, I wasn't accusing you of anything evil at all. I'm just saying that if you collect things from the wild, you are going to run the risk of losing other animals in your tank unless you know exactly what you're getting. Which is really hard to do with snails and crabs, especially.

One guy on here -- Rigo -- lives in Puerto Rico and collects things from the wild for his tank. BUT he is aware of the laws and follows them, and he only collects things if he knows exactly what they are and what their needs are. He doesn't collect "mystery" animals.
 
not to mention Rigo is a stud. I am stil waiting for his mystery tank. come to think of it, I haven't heard from him in a while....Pm time.

-Dr Marco :sfish:
 
ok the snails are definately Nassarius snails....and the hermits im pretty sure are the Clibanarius vittatus, known as striped hermits.

the whelks i put in there are kellets whelks.

any info on these guys? thanks
 
I don't think what Biff is saying is without merit.

Living on an island doesn't make you exempt from the law.What if you accidentally introduce those non-native zoanthids to the gulf and they suffocate the native species.Highly unlikely I'm sure but definitely a possibility.

It could be another caulerpa taxifolia all over again.Be careful and sorry i can't help with feeding/care tips for the stuff you listed since I've hadn't seen or read up on them.
 
this is true you need to very careful about putting things back into the waters, example if you live in hawaii (which is an island) it is against the law to own a reef tank.

info on nassarius snails pretty easy to take care of but again how long as the tank been set up? they need lots of algae
 
Nassarius snails are fine. Whelks are not -- they are predatory. Here is an article on them.

Whelks by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

"Most whelks, however, deposit capsules that hatch to release fully developed juvenile snails, and therein lies one major problem for aquarists. Many of these capsules are amazingly rugged and do a very good job of protecting the developing snails within them. They can easily pass through the collection, cleaning, transportation and curing processes that occur with live rock only to hatch sometime after the rock has been put into an aquarium. The length of time from capsule deposition to hatching for most tropical whelks is not known, but some of their temperate counterparts have impressively long encapsular periods. They may take anywhere from three to 13 months from deposition to hatching. Aquarists who neglect to carefully examine their live rock and remove such egg capsules may acquire "a gift that truly keeps on giving" for a long time. Each female whelk may deposit dozens to hundreds of egg capsules, and these may hatch over a several week period, months after deposition. Each capsule typically releases up to a half dozen or so voracious little whelks. These animals are predatory from the moment they leave the capsule and some may cause significant damage even when very small."

"With the exception of one group, whelks are not animals that are, or should be, welcome in a normal reef aquarium. The exceptional whelks that do well in reef aquaria, and which are good neighbors to all animals in the reef tank, are the nassariids. These animals, mostly in the genus Nassarius, but also including a few other small genera, are typical whelks in all regards except their diets."

-- from the article.

If you have already put whelks into your tank, it may be too late, as Kellet's whelks are one of the predatory species, not of the safe Nassarius genus.
 
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thanks a lot guys for the helpful information. i may be moving a little too fast building my tank but i assure you all that i am very concerned with the ocean and i will do the necessary steps to keeping the environment safe.

I plan on taking the 2 zooanthos i have and giving them to the pet store in trade for something this week. that way everything in my tank is off my dock.

The whelks are now back in the gulf...hopefully they didn't lay any eggs!
 
Yeah I hope they didn't lay any eggs also. If they did, you may be able to see the egg sacs and pull them off. Good luck with your tank, and feel free to post any more questions that you may have.
 
please please please please leave wild in the wild.

There are two reasons I say this:

1) It's wrong to take from the wild. yea yea yea - I am a weenie - but poaching because it's a far drive to buy is not a good reason.. It's plain lazy and shows no concern for the natual environment

now this is probably the only one you will care about

2) most wild caught animas - fish, reptiles, snakes, birds whatever - don't do well in captivity. You are setting yourself up for failure. A Captive Bred (CB) animal will typically adapt much better to your system. A CB animal will typically eat in captivity where most Wild Caught (WC) animals do not. Also - you never know what nasties are in the water you are taking the animal/fish/coral from - you could be introducing something to your tank that will crash your tank with no trouble.

but please - leave the wild in the wild - allow those who are legally allowed to harvest from the wild to do it (typically they purchase permits so it can be regulated).
 
geez some of you guys are the biggest hyppocrates in the world and you don't even realize it. Adrastos i understand your concerns but listen to yourself. If you were really truly concerned about the natural environment you would be completely against owning an aquarium. The saltwater aquarium business worldwide(whether the proper thing to do is only buy CB's or not) has gotta be horrible for the reef system worldwide. I would think CB animals would be better off being placed back into the environment rather than in people's living rooms.

i guess im comparing you to a vegetarian hippie that preaches certain ideals but if he really practiced what he preached he would be a full blooded vegan...does that make sense? you know you can't claim cruelty to animals while eating an ice cream cone.

sorry if im coming off as a jerk...im not...i hope to make friends with everybody here and learn as much as i can about this great hobby.
 
We're all human. Therefore we are all hypocrites in some aspect of our lives. As for myself though, I have a bachelor's degree in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology. I have a master's degree in Conservation Ecology. And I am one semester away from completing my PhD in Environmental Science. Looking at my background, do you think I would be partaking in a hobby that purposely devastates coral reefs around the world?

I can tell you that the aquarium hobby has not even made a DENT in damaging coral reef ecosystems worldwide, compared to other activities, such as commercial fishing and trawling, tourism, invasive species, and the biggie: global warming. 50% of the world's EXISTING coral reefs are expected to disappear by 2050. And what we have existing now is just a fraction of what used to be there. Why? Because the oceans are getting warmer and the corals are getting bleached. Unscrupulous fishing practices smash through reefs. Non-native fish, plants, algae and microbes devastate local ecosystems that have not adapted to cope with these invasive species (and invasive species usually get introduced by people putting stuff from their tanks back into the ocean).

In the meantime, there are thousands of people just like us, breeding and propagating corals in our tanks and trading and selling them to each other. The more we breed in our tanks, the less demand there is for wild-caught specimens.

It is my experience that MOST of the livestock carried in fish stores (at least in my city) are captive bred or aquacultured. And they market it as such, because they know that having an eco-friendly label is more enticing to educated and informed consumers, who are willing to pay more if they know that the environment was not harmed in the process. I am one of those people that will ask where the fish/coral came from and am happy to pay more if it was aquacultured or tank bred.

And I am also a vegetarian, and was a vegan for nine years. No one is perfect. I'm sure some mice were killed by the plows that harvested the grains I eat. But I do the best I can. And I can sleep at night knowing that I have done everything in my power to not harm the environment while stocking my fish tank, and that I have not done anything PURPOSELY to harm the environment.

We all have to do the best that we can. And doing stuff that you know is probably illegal, that you know could have severe environmental consequences, but doing it anyways, is not the best that you can do.
 
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