Hoevens Wrasse Help

Dirge337

Reefing newb
Hello,

I recently purchased a Hoevens Wrasse (Melanurus Wrasse) from my LFS. After i bought him, i started to have some chemical problems with my tank. After a week or so, and fixing the problem (tank is back to normal), i still have not seen my wrasse unless I'm gravel vaccing when he shoots up out of the sand and then darts right back under it. So what can i do to get him to come out from hiding? Its been three weeks since i got him. Id really like to get him to come out more since he is a very pretty fish.
 
Id just give him time, when he gets more comfortable he should be out a little more. This may take a while though.
 
Welcome to the site!

+1 kelz....try turning off the lights and feed him. Are there any other fish in there? Maybe he's getting bullied. Also, how long has your tank been up? Was it done cycling? And what kind of "chemical problems" did you have?
 
Thank you for the welcome!

I had read somewhere that he might be being bullied. Along with the wrasse in the tank, i have a Snowflake Eel, a Valentini Puffer, a Clarkii Clown, and a Freckled Hawkfish. If anything, i think the hawkfish would be the one to bully him so he might be leaving the tank.

This tank has been running for about 3 months now so the cycling was complete before i put my first fish in.

The chemical problems i had were disastrous. First, my nitrates and nitrites had a huge spike. I did a water change and then took a sample to the LFS. They said it was still way too high and my pH was too high as well(7.8). SO i did a massive tank cleaning, water change, added cycling bacteria, and pH buffer. After about two weeks the tank started to calm down but then i found one of my clarkii clowns dead. I figured it was from stress so he was removed quickly. The other fish appeared fine except the Lemon Peel i also had. She ended up being diagnosed with Scepticemia and later passed after trying very hard to save her (she was moved to a quarantine tank immediately after i saw the infection). I have finally gotten to the point where my nitrites, nitrates, and pH are all great. My tank is clear and all the fish are active, eating, and healthy.
 
It would have been a good idea to make a topic here before you acted on the situation.

Did you ever identify the cause of the mysterious "nitrate and nitrites" spike?

A pH of 7.8 is within acceptable reef parameters, but it is actually on the LOW end....it's certainly not too high.

What are your current parameters? Actual numbers, please. :)
 
Well, i had my water tested again last night, and i guess my testing kit is off because the guy said my nitrates and alkalinity are still high. He gave me something new to put into my filter too. My testing kit reads:

Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Salinity: 1.022
pH: 8.3
Ammonia: .25 ppm
Temperature: 80

That's all my test will looks for :-(. The hawkfish was removed from the aquarium last night into the quarantine tank as well. I'm still new to saltwater so any advice is appreciated.
 
I'd watch out for "the something new to put into my filter." For the most part, we don't like to put anything into our tanks and those fish store employees sure like to sell that crap. You should not be adding cycling bacteria and buffer.
Your ammonia should be at a zero.
What is "gravel vaccing" Do you have gravel?? You are vacuuming something? You should leave the sandbed alone. Some of us occasionally stir the sandbed, one little section at a time. Disturbing the sandbed releases things. It can cause spikes in your levels.
 
The guy who tested my water said my phosphates were high so he gave me something to switch out with the biomax in my filter to help get rid of the phosphates and nitrates. The guy i go to owns his own store and has been dealing with saltwater tanka for years. Also, he didnt sell it to me, he gave it to me :-) hes very nice and wants my tank to get better Haha.
Since i started to add the bacteria, the nitrates have gone down and my nitrites are completely gone. I havent added the buffer since my major cleaning. I didnt add anymore since then because my pH is now fine. I know my ammonia should be at zero. I have been doing freshwater tanks for years and just decided to try out saltwater. I know in any tank, ammonia is not good.
The gravel vaccuming is just a general term for cleaning the substrate in the tank. A siphon like device will sift through the sand to get out any crap or extra food that was stuck in the sandbed. I dont have gravel, i have sand. Since i cleaned the substrate , all my nitrates have decreased and the tank is much more clear.
SO. My tank is now fine. I really just want some tips on how to get that wrasse to stop hiding. He is still alive. This morning when i flipped on the lights, i saw sand stir up where he went back under the sand.
 
A cycled tank shouldn't have ammonia and nitrite spikes like you're experiencing. And you have a lot of pretty aggressive fish in a 55, especially if it was only set up for 3 mo - you should only be adding 1 fish per month for the first several months. Your wrasse may well become lunch for someone, so not surprising he's hiding in the sand. An ammonia spike usually indicates something has died - did you lose any fish that you didn't find the bodies of? And your pH is fine at 8.3 - not high. Like others have said, vacuuming the sand can throw your parameters way out of whack - its not like fresh water where you want to vacuum the gravel. And if you have gravel or crushed coral (instead of sand), then you really should get rid of it and replace it with aragonite sand. What kind of a clean up crew do you have and what are you feeding? Feeding too much or the wrong type of food can also cause water parameters to get out of whack pretty quickly. What type of testing kit do you have? Some are more accurate than others. What kind of filtration do you have? How much live rock do you have? How deep is your sand bed? These are all things that can impact your parameters and giving us more info would really help us point you in the right direction!
 
I cant remember the sand i bought specifically but i think it was aragonite. It was Ocean Direct live sand if i remember right. I know it was live sand. About 80 pounds worth.
My sand bed is about an inch and half deep. I know i dont have any dead fishies in there so i dont think that's what the ammonia is from. If i dont vaccum the sand or get all the stuff out of it, doesn't it just decay and make the parameters go crazy? (I really dont know, I'm not trying to be rude :) )
The clean up crew i have are 5 Turbo Snails. From what I've been reading, anything else would be gobbled up by the Eel. I went on a search to find giant turbo snails so he couldn't eat them.
My feeding schedule is every morning and every night. My puffer and clarki get Omnivore pellets every morning (Only about 3 each) and Spirulina Brine Shrimp, Mysis Shrimp, or Cyclops every night. Only about 1/8 of a teaspoon.
The testing kit that i have is the same exact one the guy at the store has. API Master Saltwater kit. When i follow the directions it turns out fine. He does something different so i wonder if I'm doing it wrong? Ill add 10 drops of the one chemical and then 10 of the other and shake it. Leave it for about 3-5 minutes. Its a brand new kit because the one i had before was old.
For filtration, i have a submersible 70 gallon u4 Fluval. I was told that this would just make it worse because the filter would collect the garbage and it would just sit there. SO, a week ago i added on an AquaClear 70 gallon Hang on back filter loaded with two carbons and a sponge. Since i added it, it looks way more clear. I also built a custom hood just for the filter and to prevent my eel from escaping. :) I also have a Marineland 550 powerhead.
I have no live rock in my tank. Its all artificial or lace rock. I know this is a reef forum but i couldn't get any responses from any other forums for this fish.
The fish i have currently never bother each other. The Clarkii and the Puffer actually hang out together since the Clarkiis mate died. Its kind of cute. The wrasse i got is pretty big as well (about 4 inches)

I think that's all the answers. I hope it helps! Thanks!
 
This info is helpful - thanks! One more question for you (before I respond to everything you wrote) - what process did you use to cycle the tank (especially important since you only have artificial rock)?
 
I used the live fish cycling. After about a week of the filter running on the water, i put 4 damsels in the tank and let it run for about 6 weeks after that.Then i tested the tank before getting anything. But, it was with the old test kit so it couldve been off.

Exciting news! My wrasse was out this morning!! Just for about 2 minutes after i turned on the light and then right back under the sand
 
Did you put anything with nitrifying bacteria in your tank to help cycle? The cycling process is to give the bacteria enough time to grow on the surface area of the rocks to process ammonia into nitrites and nitrites into nitrates. If you didn't have any bacteria in there to start with them I'm a little skeptical that the tank wasn't fully cycled. There may have been some bacteria still alive in the live sand but often its pretty dead by the time it comes out of the bag (even if it says its alive). Did you have the artificial/lace rock in your tank when you cycled? Did you test the tank every few days throughout the cycling process? If so, did you watch ammonia spike and then return to zero, followed by nitrite spiking and returning to zero?
 
I didnt add any kind of bacteria to the tank when i started it. The LFS that i used to go to didnt give me any to put in. The guy there (not the same one i go to now) just said i needed salt, sand, and a good filter.
I didn't have all the rock in there that i do now. I never thought about the bacteria sticking to the rocks. I did test the tank though as the tank cycled and it always stayed at 0 ppm for everything. I did see an ammonia spike but the kit was old and i didnt see any nitrite spike. As i have said, i am new to saltwater. So i had no idea there was suppose to be a spike.
 
Yikes! Okay, well, first problem is that your tank was never fully cycled, which is why you are seeing ammonia and nitrites now. Read these links and they should help you with understanding cycling a tank as well as the various water parameters:

https://www.livingreefs.com/cycling-tank-adding-fish-and-corals-t26452.html
https://www.livingreefs.com/water-chemistry-t31270.html
https://www.livingreefs.com/some-common-reef-chemistry-misconceptions-t41957.html

I'm also linking to an article on choosing fish that might be helpful:

https://www.livingreefs.com/choose-your-fish-t27083.html

A few things you'll need to think about to improve your tank:

(1) Rock - you really need 1-2 lbs per gallon, preferably placed on the glass in order to avoid rock slides as sand shifts and dissolves over time. You can get mostly dry rock - marco rocks and bulk reef supply have good prices, and then seed the rock with a few pounds of live rock from a local LFS. Through the course of cycling your tank the dry rock becomes live over time as the population of bacteria grows on it - that's really all that "live rock" means, though sometimes you'll get cool hitchhiker corals, sponges, or inverts on your rock as well. In saltwater, we rarely use artificial rock or decorations because they just don't provide enough surface area for bacteria to grow (as well as trying to keep the environment as natural as possible). You'll also want to stay away from things like volcanic rock and other types often used in freshwater as they leech harmful stuff back into your water. You mentioned you have lace rock - can you say more about this type of rock or post a picture? I don't really know if its safe or not because I'm not sure what type it is....

(2) Filters - in saltwater, the live rock is your primary filter. People often use a skimmer as well to help remove undissolved organic materials and waste from the water column. A skimmer creates lots of bubbles, organic matter sticks to the surface tension of the bubbles, which then rise and dump into a skimmer cup, removing the waste from the system. You can get hang-on-back skimmers or can put a skimmer in a sump system. A mechanical filter (such as a sponge, canister filter, etc) just traps the waste but it stays in the water, continues to break down, and can contribute to nitrate problems, etc. If you have any sort of mechanical filter (and you do with your hang-on-back filter and sponge), then you'll need to wash them out regularly, and rinse your sponge out a few times a week. Same is true if you have a sump system and use a sock filter or anything like that. Some people use HOB filters for flow, or convert it to a small refugium (put some chaetomorpha algae and live rock rubble in it - chaeto will help remove nitrates from the water), and occasionally run carbon a few days a month to clear the water.

(3) Clean-up crew - you need to have a clean up crew in your tank to help eat the left over food and waste your fish produce. Nassarius snails are a must - they liev in the sand and help aerate it. Turbos are good at eating algae, but you'll also want a variety of other snails as well, as the types of algae they eat vary and the smaller ones can get into the cracks in the live rock better. Many people also add hermit crabs (though they can eat your snails) and other inverts like urchins, brittle stars, etc., to help eat detritus and algae.

(4) Flow - one 550gph powerhead is not nearly enough flow. In a FOWLR (fish only) system, you should aim for at least 20x turnover for your tank size. For a 55g, that's 1100gph - double what you currently have. And more flow is almost always better - if you ever want corals, you'll want to aim for 40x turnover in your tank. And best to get a few more powerheads to add to teh one you have - that will help create more random flow in your tank and currents like the ocean - just having a single large powerhead doesn't do that.

(5) Food - I think you're feeding too much - many of us only feed every other day. Excess food can lead to nitrate and phosphate problems, and in some cases can spike ammonia and crash a tank. I'd reduce your feeding a lot - my only hesitation on this suggestion is the eel - perhaps someone who has experience iwth eels can chime in and help out with how often to feed them.

Anyhow, this is a lot of info at once, but should at least point you in the right direction. At some point I think you need to adjust your stocking - your tank is pretty small for the eel and puffer and you can really only have 1 fish for every 10g in a new tank, so you're pretty close to your limit, which is really risky in an uncycled tank. At this point, I'm not sure of the best course of action with your fish... you really need to get your tank cycled, but that will likely kill your fish in the process. Best option is to check with your LFS and see if they will board your fish for a month while you cycle your tank and get it up and running properly.

EDIT: Also, your test kit is probably okay - the brand and type are good, but sometimes they go bad even if they are new. If your LFS is getting different readings, they might be using test strips, which are notoriously inaccurate. You could pick up another test kit to test your results against. At this point I'd figure out how to get your tank cycled and then test your water daily during the process. If your kit reads 0 on ammonia the first few days, then I'd suggest picking up a few kit as your kit may have gone bad.

And finally, LFSs and their employees aren't always knowledgable about saltwater even if they are good intentioned. Some owners have been around for a long time and often recommend outdated methods; many are knowledgable about fresh water but not so much about saltwater. Many employees have never owned a tank themselves and don't fully understand things like cycling, stocking importance, etc. And finally some employees are of the mindset that those coming in and making a purchase have already done their homework and know what they are doing, so they don't ask questions and people then unknowingly often get stuff for their tanks that aren't going to survive. Many many people here have been mislead by their LFS, and it sounds to me like certainly your first LFS did that to you, and the one you have now also sounds like they are misleading you a bit with filtering recommendations. You are really best doing a lot of reading and homework on your own and then going in and asking for what you want, rather than relying on them to point you in the right direction. LivingReefs is a good place to ask a lot of those questions and to get info - no agenda on our part other than wanting to see you have a successful and healthy tank long-term!
 
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Wow that is a lot of info! Thank you! Ill get on all that stuff to save my fish!
I have one more question:

I have these little tiny white bugs that are jumping around the glass and on the rocks. The population was multiplying like crazy until i got my wrasse. Then they started to go way down (which is why i got him in the first place). BUT i still see them and i want to know what they are and if they are good.


I think i have a picture in my albums of the tank but i will post one here too:

550597_524673854212757_1009245564_n.jpg
 
Pods - good guys - a sign of a healthy and maturing tank (yay!) - and wrasses love them :)

The rocks look okay - hard to tell what the darker ones are (hopefully someone else can chime in) - but a little dense - the more porous, the more surface area for bacteria to grow. I'd try to estimate how much rock you have in your tank, and then supplement with additional porous dry and live rock (get something a little lacier than base rock which tends to be denser, and you already have dense rock). You want to aim for 75-100lbs in your tank

You can replace the plastic plants with live macro algae - will give the same effect but also provide your tank with the added benefit of the macro algae out-competing nussiance algae.

Also, I looked up the stats on the puffer and eel, and both are okay long-term in a 50, so you should be okay with your stocking list, just really can't add anything else aside from the eel, puffer, hawkfish, clarkii, and wrasse.
 
The little bugs are pods, which are good guys! Free fish food!

+1 to everything Fishy said, lots of great advice there.

The rocks look to me to be lava rocks and other land based rocks. These rocks tends to leach back out minerals, metals, nitrates and phosphates which leads to endless algae issues. If you always want to be a FOWLR tank with minimal lighting, it could be ok, but the fish you have are really "dirty" fish so you are going to want maximum surface area for maximum amount of bacteria to process their waste.

This is my favorite place to buy dry rock: MarcoRocks Aquarium Products

You can buy dry rock (cheap) and after being in a tank for a few weeks, or going through the cycle it will all be live and you have money in pocket for the good stuff.

One thing, i also think that your tank is fully cycled buy the stirring up of the sand is what is causing the mini cycles. Leave the sand alone in a reef tank is your best bet, instead get animals that will naturally care for the sand bed for you.
 
Awesome. Thank you so much for the info guys. Ill go get a couple pieces of live rock today and put it in evenly spaced so every other rock gets some love.

I know one day i will have to give up my eel when he gets too big :( But an eel is the reason i started a saltwater tank. Any suggestions on an eel that can go with my tank for good?
I gave up the hawkfish last friday because he was beating the clarkii up. So i have 4 fish in the tank currently. Where can i get macro-algae to replace the plants? I hate using artificial plants. When i did freshwater i ALWAYS had live plants. But for salt, i dont really know where to start.
Also, last question, any recommendations on things that will stir up the sand bed naturally but wont get eaten by my eel? Hes about 14 inches now.
 
You have a snowflake right? He should be fine in there his whole life. And check out reefcleaners.org to find marine algae, but you are going to need pretty good lights to keep them.
 
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