immigraton laws

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by daugherty, Apr 28, 2010.

  1. daugherty

    LBFish

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    So I read that entire complaint and for the most part it is crap and won't change anything. So don't use any of those things the listed alone to determine reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal. I don't think the cops are going to be willing to go to court and say that he had reasonable suspicion because the guy was driving a lowered 69 Monte Carlo and playing Mexican music anyway. And if they do, they will get laughed out of court.

    Also, as far as I can tell SB 1070 does not give every citizen the right to sue every cop because he/she fails to question every Mexican in sight. It does say they a citizen can sue a municipality or offical that creates a policy that limits or restricts the enforcement of Federal immigration laws.

    It is also a poorly written complaint, I don't think I would challenge a law by submitting a complaint with a grammatical error and a superfluous paragraph (29).

    It's the first of many i'm sure, but this one is a very poor attempt.
     
    LBFish, Apr 29, 2010
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  2. daugherty

    LBFish

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    There are plenty of race neutral ways to raise a reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal. To say that someone having a heavy accent or doesn't speak English is not race neutral is a bunch of crap. How is lacking the ability to speak English specific to race? How is not having a drivers license, car registration or insurance specific to race?

    Are Hispanics the only ones in Tucson that can't speak English, don't have drivers licenses, registration and car insurance? Are Hispanics the only ones that use public transportation? Come to think of it, the complaint creates more stereotypes about Hispanics than actually exist. The complaint itself is totally racist and insulting to Hispanics and should therefor be tossed out of court for being racially biased. Seriously, you are going to defend Hispanics by citing a laundry list to stereotypical BS that most people would consider racist? Seriously, how many people here would end up fired for saying that Hispanics all dress alike, all speak little to no English, all drive crappy cars or take public transportation? Isn't that exactly what the complaint said?
     
    LBFish, Apr 29, 2010
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  3. daugherty

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    I interpreted the complaint as meaning that both illegal and legal Hispanics are capable of possessing those traits, so there's no way to distinguish who is here legally and who is not from those characteristics.
     
    Bifferwine, Apr 29, 2010
  4. daugherty

    LBFish

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    Ok, let's assume that is an accurate statement. Then don't use those traits for a basis or reasonable suspicion, problem solved.
     
    LBFish, Apr 29, 2010
  5. daugherty

    sen5241b

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    I brought the issue of racial profiling up before. From the standpoint of anti-terrorism its a very bad idea. The moment terrorists see a pattern the will take advantage of it. Profile Arabs and they'll send in a blue-eyed Taliban convert to carry the bomb.
     
    sen5241b, Apr 30, 2010
  6. daugherty

    wontonflip I failed Kobayashi Maru

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    Oh you mean like THIS guy -- Daniel Boyd (who, btw, graduated a few years before me from the same high school :shock: :

    [​IMG]
     
    wontonflip, Apr 30, 2010
  7. daugherty

    LBFish

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    From any standpoint its a bad idea because, among the many reasons, it is against the law in this country. It shouldn't be done for the enforcement of any law, and this one doesn't change that.
     
    LBFish, Apr 30, 2010
  8. daugherty

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    The problem is that those traits that he specifically mentioned in the lawsuit were used as examples by lawmakers that supported the law, and the author of the law, as characteristics that could be cause of "reasonable suspicion."
     
    Bifferwine, Apr 30, 2010
  9. daugherty

    bjohanson1234 .........

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    Then really what traits would be reasonable suspicion for being an illegal? That is the point of the discussion here. So far, nothing listed would be something other than racial profiling.
    Both legal and illegal imagrants look, dress, speak, and act the same. No matter what country they came from. An immigrant from Mexico will behave the same wether legal or not. Same from Poland or Canada. So how someone dresses is profiling, skin color is profiling, thick foreign accent is profiling. Basically, how can you have reasonable suspicion of someone being an illegal without it being racial profiling?

    The only way they could legaly do this is to check the legal status of everyone that they pulled over. Run the license/finger prints though imigration for every person they ask ID for?. It will cost way too much and be very innefective.


    I really believe that the only way to fix imigration is to make a clear cut way to immigrate legally AND to crack down on the buisinesses that hire illegals. Get rid of the supply of jobs that they do and suddenly the illegals wont be coming over here for work. Because the jobs wont be here unless they come in legally.
     
    bjohanson1234, Apr 30, 2010
  10. daugherty

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    That is exactly what the police officer's lawsuit states. He is suing because he says it's not practical to do this.
     
    Bifferwine, Apr 30, 2010
  11. daugherty

    scu95821

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    There is a way to do this legally but it is based on the country of origin. I don’t know about Mexico . My friends dad came here from Ireland legally enlisted, severed 4 years and was made a citizen the day he was discharged.
     
    scu95821, Apr 30, 2010
  12. daugherty

    LBFish

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    First, profiling is not a problem, nor it is illegal. Racial profiling is another matter. I don't see how what clothes you wear have anything to do with your race. The police already ask for identification from everyone they come into contact with now. And though I couldn't find it in the text of the law, it appears that they are assuming you are a legal citizen if you have a valid AZ drivers license. So to that extent, there is nothing new added to what the police are doing anyway.

    Also, i've listed several times here things that could be used to raise a reasonable suspicion that are not racial profiling, go back and read them and let me know what you think about those things.
     
    LBFish, Apr 30, 2010
  13. daugherty

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    The law has already been changed by the legislature:

    Immigration law scaled back

    HB2162, approved by the House and Senate, changes the law to specify that when deciding whom to question about immigration status, police may not use race, ethnicity, or national origin as a factor.

    That is a significant change from SB 1070 as it was approved by lawmakers and signed less than a week ago by Gov. Jan Brewer. That version of the law permits police to consider any of those factors when deciding if there is "reasonable suspicion" someone is not in this country legally, as long as it is not the only reason for investigating further.

    ...As originally approved, SB 1070 requires police to determine the immigration status of those whom they have "lawful contact" if there is reasonable suspicion the person is not here legally.

    That "reasonable supsicion" language remains. But the language about "contact" is replaced with a reference to "stopped, detention or arrest."


    So yes, the original law did allow racial profiling. It specifically allowed race and ethnicity to be used as factors when determining whether to question someone further.

    I know a lot of people had voiced their concerns about what would happen if an illegal immigrant witnessed a crime. They wouldn't report it or go to the police, because that would qualify as "lawful contact" and they'd be asked to provide proof of citizenship. Several police officers here in Tucson have stated that that provision of the law would keep a lot of people from giving witness statements and calling the police if they witnessed a crime, as they rely on the "word on the street" quite a bit. I can see that happening. Because it has been changed to "stopped, detention or arrest" that means that maybe people will maybe not be afraid to go to the police.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
    Bifferwine, Apr 30, 2010
  14. daugherty

    LBFish

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    That is not really true, the word 'race' only occurs in SB1070 once and not to say that police can use it as a determining factor. It is however true that it also did not specifically say state that they couldn't use it either. In either case, hopefully this new bill will stop the controversy. In my opinion, the new bill will not make any significant impact on the way the law is implemented. I know a lot of people don't agree, and I respect that; however, there will still be some cops that ruin it for everyone else and use race. They do that anyway in every state. But I think that for the most part, they would not have been using race as a factor anyway. Either way it appears to be resolved now.
    Still can't find that in the law anywhere. I went back and looked again and nowhere did to state that the police could use race and ethnicity as factors and it also doesn't say that racial profiling would be allowed.

    I agree with this concern and I don't think the new bill will make any significant change. This is already a problem and always has been. Many illegal immigrants don't know the law and are not willing to risk being deported to talk to the police for any reason. I know that the change in language makes a world of difference from the point of view of the police, or anyone that knows the law. But that concern was there long before SB1070 was put to paper and it will continue to be a problem long after HB2162 goes into effect.
     
    LBFish, Apr 30, 2010
  15. daugherty

    sen5241b

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    Its funny but scientist have never agreed on what a race even is.
     
    sen5241b, Apr 30, 2010
  16. daugherty

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    Race is widely believed to be more of a social construct than a scientific construct. Sometimes, neither.

    Arabs are technically classified as "caucasian," however people wouldn't look at an Arab and say they are "white."
     
    Bifferwine, Apr 30, 2010
  17. daugherty

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    Bifferwine, Apr 30, 2010
  18. daugherty

    LBFish

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    There was a show on TV recently that went around the world collecting DNA and traced all people via DNA and was able to show a "family tree" using the DNA. If I recall correctly the differences in humans is very slight, regardless of what color your skin happens to be. I can't remember the name of the show or any details however :( It was a really interesting show, anyone else know of it?
     
    LBFish, Apr 30, 2010
  19. daugherty

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    "Crime Stats Don't Support Arizona Law"

    Crime stats test rationale behind Arizona immigration law - CNN.com

    High levels of illegal immigration and crimes committed by unauthorized immigrants are among the key rationales cited by some supporters of a tough new immigration law in Arizona.

    Yet, a look at statistics from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency and the FBI indicate that both the number of illegal crossers and violent crime in general have actually decreased in the past several years.

    Crime rates have already been falling in Arizona for years despite the presence of unauthorized immigrants, and immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native-born.


    I know that illegal immigrants cause a lot of problems and cost everyone a lot of money, but it appears that the extent of that damage (as far as criminals) has been exaggerated by the proponents of this bill. I will also add that both attempted robberies on my house have been committed by white men, and when my exhusband was robbed at gunpoint here in Tucson, the perpetrator was also white.

    Even in border states, criminals aren't overwhelmingly one race over another.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
    Bifferwine, Apr 30, 2010
  20. daugherty

    LBFish

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    LBFish, Apr 30, 2010
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