Live rock and drilling

Discussion in 'New to Reefing' started by 2008pollyanna, May 30, 2008.

  1. 2008pollyanna

    2008pollyanna

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    I know I did a no no. After the fact, my husband and I were taking a couple of my live rock out to drill a hole in for those frag pegs...anyways, one of my live rock was very big and heavy and I said, just drill right into it, which we did. It sure put out alot of chaulky clay like stuff. Anyways, I asked him to put a hole in the rock next to it, and sure enough...the rock broke into several pieces. I think thats when my phosphate problem started..and the domino effect of high ph and KH. Does this sound like a possibility. Otherwise, perhaps I may have added a few to many coral at one time.
     
    2008pollyanna, May 30, 2008
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  2. 2008pollyanna

    Altohombre The Tennis Pro Reefer

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    why would a broken live rock add to phosphate? Most live rock you get have been broken over and over until what they are now.
     
    Altohombre, May 30, 2008
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  3. 2008pollyanna

    fatman

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    Given no other changes or additions to your system it is concieveable, as it is quite possible for a rocks composition to be different on the inside from the outside as well as one must consider the outter layer of the rock would leach phosphates without neccesarilly effecting the phospahte levels of the inside of the rock and the rock could possibly give up its coating of precipitated on calcium carbonate without effecting the contents of the other parts of the rock.
     
    fatman, May 30, 2008
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  4. 2008pollyanna

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    Lots of people (myself included) have used a chisel and hammer to break up large pieces of rock into smaller units.

    More likely the cause of your phosphates is not using good water (tap water = bad), overfeeding or feeding pellets or flake foods (which can raise phosphate levels).
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
    Bifferwine, May 31, 2008
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  5. 2008pollyanna

    reeffreak

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    Same with me,conceivable,but highly unlikely.Your phosphate must be coming from somewhere else.I doubt adding to many corals could of cause it either.
     
    reeffreak, May 31, 2008
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  6. 2008pollyanna

    daugherty part time reefer

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    Last edited: May 31, 2008
    daugherty, May 31, 2008
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  7. 2008pollyanna

    dustin_P74

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    your tap water might be treated with different chemicals then hers
     
    dustin_P74, May 31, 2008
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  8. 2008pollyanna

    fatman

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    Water is treated differently almost ever where, just as water is different every where. Daugherty's water has a high alkalinity but a low calcium, a quite high arsenic and a high PH. I could easily anticipate problems with Daugherty's water in the areas of low calcium in relation to a high Ph and high alkalinity. But his raw water is probably exceptional in some respects in comparison to water from the arid South West like Biffers water. Daugherty's water has half the TDS of Biffer's water. Most likely there is quite a bit more calcium in Biffers water and probably more carbonates.
    Treatment plants use different oxidizers, IE. some use potassium permangenate and some use chlorine gas, some lime soften some do not, some use clay as a coagulant as well as polymers for flocculation some do not, or some use aluminum (alum) and some use ferric iron as a coagulant aid for flocculation plus polymers, some use a lot of chlorine, some inject CO2, some use ferric Hydroxide and some use ferric hydrochloride, most do not, some use mass amounts of aeration where some just ignore the chemicals and heavy metals in the water if they are under the maximum allowed by law. For disinfection some use chlorine and some use chloroamine, and some use new designer chemicals instead, some use much more than chlorine than is needed as does Duagherties municipal water treatment plant. I highly recommend an RO filter or the use of RO water to every reefer. Lots of stuff gets injected, pumped, poured and somehow added to or water to make it the mess it is, but it looks clean, and is bacteriologically safe and most of it will lather soap, so it is treated water as required by law. No one will likely ever have as much success with tap water as they will with good RO, or even better than that RODI water. either of which has been aerated and balanced as needed before mixing for there reef tanks.
     
    fatman, May 31, 2008
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  9. 2008pollyanna

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    She says in another post that she's seen the change since she started dosing phyto.

    Phosphates can take some time to accumulate and show up on a test kit. It doesn't happen immediately. You can make a change or do something and see your phosphates rise a week, several weeks or a month later. They take time to accumulate to a testable level if the cause of them is adding only small amounts. Just because there has been no other change or additions in the last week/2 weeks/whatever doesn't mean it couldn't have been the result of phosphates slowly accumulating over time, and only now are they at readable levels.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2008
    Bifferwine, May 31, 2008
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  10. 2008pollyanna

    2008pollyanna

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    Sorry its been a day or two here since I last posted. I have well water. My KH calcium hardness is over the top. Even with a water softner. I do know, if memory is correct...that the water tables underground do shift and change with springtime and I believe fall. With seasonal rains, runoffs, ect things can start changing alkaline levels, mineral levels, ect. Our water here has always been very alkaline, very little rust, and abit of lime or scale that will build up. No noticeable rust. But, again...the calcium hardness is rather than 8-12...it has been 18-20 drops. I did get a phos baggie thing, for phosphate absorbtion..forget the name, and put in my sump under my intake pipe from tank to sump. After 2 days, phosphates dropped quite abit, but just for just a day, but have gone over the top again...deep deep violet blue.

    With talking and discussing matters with my husband, we are thinking of ordering a RO DI unit for water changes, and drinking water. Any good recommendations would be very much appreciated...A new adventure, oh well, life is good.
    Thankyou all..
     
    2008pollyanna, Jun 2, 2008
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  11. 2008pollyanna

    RyanG ^*Eternal Dumbass*^

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    www.purewaterclub.com

    Its the same vendor that biff and several others bought their RO/DI unit from without the Ebay hassle. They have several models to choose from, I think that they have one with a pressurized storage tank for drinking water too. Check them out. Good product, Ive heard on several sites that they have great customer service as well. The prices cant be beat either.
     
    RyanG, Jun 2, 2008
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  12. 2008pollyanna

    2008pollyanna

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    Thanks Ryan!!!
     
    2008pollyanna, Jun 2, 2008
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  13. 2008pollyanna

    2008pollyanna

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    This is great...now I have found the company...
    Does a RO DI eliminate alkalinity problems, calcium hardness and allow the PH to stabilize perhaps?
    THNKS
    B&S
     
    2008pollyanna, Jun 2, 2008
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  14. 2008pollyanna

    fatman

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    :bounce: If you have adequate pressure the RODI unit will work great at lowering alkalinity and calcium (and with that the pH) and a lot of the phosphate. The DI cartridge usually will get things not removed by the RO filter. They might work so well that you might want to add some calcium and calcium carbonate to the RO water. Ironic, huh. You could go from too high calcium carbonate (alkalinity) to too low. Too low is, however, easier to safely adjust. Ideally a RO filter strips every thing from the water but the actual pure water itself. However, that does not happen and the DI cartridge is left to remove the rest. However a DI cartridge is not a filter but is an exchange media, it replaces less desirable elements for safer elements. In essence they are like small water softeners without recharge units. If you have low pressure, your RO will not work as well leaving more work for the DI to perform. DI filters have very low capacities. Especially if they are not full sized 10" canisters. It would be wise to raise your water pressure up to at least 40 psi and 50 psi if possible to make the RO filter work best and most efficiently. Some people have their pressures set pretty low with their well pumps. It mainly depends on the type of the pump. Above ground pumps are usually run at lower pressures and used with shallow wells. Deeper wells typically have submersible pumps which can nearly always produce high pressures. A low of 40 and a high of 60 on the pumps pressure switch is a good setting and not excessive. Larger, more efficient commercial RO units have their water run through sediment filters, a water softener then large activated carbon filters before running through the RO membrane (at 200 - 225 psi), then through two seperate DI units, both a catonic and anonic resin exchange DI cartridge. Small DI units typically are mixed bed cartridges made up of both anonic and catonic media beads. A mixed bed cannot be recharged as can seperate medias. Remember is you do get an RODI unit always aerate the water before using oit to mix new water. Fresh RO and RODI water has very low dissolved oxygen, a low pH, and a high level of carbon dioxide. :^:
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2008
    fatman, Jun 2, 2008
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  15. 2008pollyanna

    2008pollyanna

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    Thankyou FatMan...you are quite knowledgeable in water. I have read many of your posts. You have worked in water treatment plants if my memory is correct. Great information for an aquaranist. Now perhaps, I should start taking my notes...for a purchase.
    Thankyou Fatman, Ryan, Biff, and all the others...I have gained much with much more to learn. Keep sending your thoughts and know how....good day to you all...
    B&S
     
    2008pollyanna, Jun 2, 2008
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  16. 2008pollyanna

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    Yep, I highly recommend Pure Water Club RODI units. They cost about 1/5 of what other brands do, and they work well.
     
    Bifferwine, Jun 3, 2008
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  17. 2008pollyanna

    fatman

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    The Pure Water $99 Ro filter system has a standard RO membrane, which is good, but all its other filters are inline filters which much less capacity than typical 2" x 10" cartridge filters used in a standard filter cartridge canister that are sold with the more expensive RO and RODI units. A typical canister filter housing without the filter element cost more than the entire little inline filter used in the $99 Pure Water filter system. The DI filter is the same way. You get what you pay for, and with the $99 pure Water you get filters that are normally used for small use applications like refrigertor ice makers and coffee makers where total removal amounts over a given time are small. In essence they are finishing filters at most, that are being put to use as primary filters.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2008
    fatman, Jun 3, 2008
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  18. 2008pollyanna

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    But I make around 100 gallons per week with my PureWaterClub RODI unit. And I have been making that much (approximately) since I purchased it in September. I make a lot more water with it than a coffee maker or ice maker, and it consistently produces high quality water. I disagree with what you say regarding the quality of this RODI unit, Fatman, based upon my personal experience with it. It has proven to me to be very reliable, even with continuous, daily use, month after month, producing a large quantity of water for my tank.

    Even after 10 months of use, making approximately 100 gallons per week with my "finishing filter at most" with its "gross shortcomings", my TDS comes down from 400-500 to less than 5 every time.

    This is just my own personal experience. I have been using it for almost the last year. It has worked great for me and I highly highly highly recommend it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2008
    Bifferwine, Jun 3, 2008
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  19. 2008pollyanna

    fatman

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    I said your RO membrane is full sized and that is good. It is understandable thata good membrane will put oit good water. However the prefilters are small and need to be changesd more often then full sized ones. If they are not changes they clog/damage the expensive membrane plus as the prefilters start getting old and fiull of material they cause a drop in pressure feeding the membrane causing decreased output and decreased efficiency. You should also know that the DI cartridges can only exchange so much, once the have done that amount they do nothing but lower the output productiom without doing any ionic exchanges. Sfter all they are not be recharged just used up and then discarded. Small inline filters are very limited in there exchange cpacity as they hold very little resin beads as they also house a ply filter and pad to prevent flushing out tje beads. Charcoal has a very limied adsorbtion level after that is done they just pass all the chlorine through and neiter acetate or thin Film RO membranesare supposed to be used without complete chlorine removal before the water gets to the membrane. Just an RO membrane, with out all the other prefilters and DI or other post filters, will produce water with a much lowered TDS
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2008
    fatman, Jun 3, 2008
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  20. 2008pollyanna

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    So me OBSERVING that for the past 10 months, I have run my RODI unit for 100 gallons per week, and me MEASURING that the TDS goes down from 400-500 to less than 5 is based on a years worth of experience with this unit, and heavy usage of it IS firm ground for me to recommend it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2008
    Bifferwine, Jun 3, 2008
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