Not a good fish to keep in tank

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by sen5241b, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. sen5241b

    sen5241b

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    The argument could be made that Orcas are very intelligent too and should not be kept in captivity but then people eat pigs which are easily one of the most intelligent mammals.
     
    sen5241b, Feb 26, 2010
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  2. sen5241b

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    That's actually my rationale for being a vegetarian. I, personally, cannot draw a line between my pets (like a cat or dog) and "food animals" (like a cow or a pig or a chicken). Pigs have the intelligence of 4-year old humans. Cows and chickens can complete the same learned tasks that my cats and dogs can. I see no difference between those two classes of animals (pets and food animals) and therefore cannot justify treating the two groups so differently. When I see a food animal, I see an animal that could just as easily be one of my pets, and I can't bring myself to eat any animals... I haven't since I was 12 years old.

    That's my own reason for being vegetarian. No need to start ANOTHER debate about vegetarianism on here. I don't tell meat eaters how they should eat, so it really irritates me when meat eaters try to tell me my position is wrong. It's not. It's MY position. Not yours. I don't go around pushing my vegetarian views on the people around me, and I wish meat eaters could be a little bit more respectful of my decisions. Anyways, please let's not start this debate again. I won the last one against RyanG, and I will win the next one against whoever else feels the need to go up against me and tell me that being vegetarian is in some way "unnatural."
     
    Bifferwine, Feb 26, 2010
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  3. sen5241b

    motorcyclereefer I am Graffiti Petey

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    motorcyclereefer, Feb 26, 2010
    #43
  4. sen5241b

    PRC Stop Quoting Me!

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    If that glass broke, that would be the sweetest video ever on youtube. I can just see it now, piles of sharks just gobbling people up right in the middle of the mall. Did I mention that those bastards in Dubai have entirely too much money?
     
    PRC, Feb 26, 2010
    #44
  5. sen5241b

    motorcyclereefer I am Graffiti Petey

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    Jaws-the real movie
     
    motorcyclereefer, Feb 26, 2010
    #45
  6. sen5241b

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    Except it's not their money. They are the most in-debt and bankrupt nation in the world, as far as $$ owed per population size goes. Dubai has borrowed SO MUCH MONEY to do all that crap, and their developments have not paid off and they are now basically owned by foreign investors and b/millionaires that bailed them out.
     
    Bifferwine, Feb 26, 2010
    #46
  7. sen5241b

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    Authorities later claimed the problem had been fixed, but were not allowing anyone near to see and anyone with photos of the drama were ordered by cops to delete them.


    Smells fishy!
     
    Bifferwine, Feb 26, 2010
    #47
  8. sen5241b

    motorcyclereefer I am Graffiti Petey

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    When I read the article and saw where they had the photographs destroyed I thought something was not kosher.
     
    motorcyclereefer, Feb 26, 2010
    #48
  9. sen5241b

    Navarchus Almost smarter than a pig

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    Biff, I love you, but that is one of the dumbest things you have ever written.

    I am enjoying your position on this whole topic though. I love discussing the philosophy and morality of reef keeping. Of course we all know the book "the conscientious aquarist." I think that title pretty much sums up my feeling on the topic. I try to be a conscientious aquarist. That is, I engage in the hobby with the understanding that there is an impact on both the environment and the individual animals. I try to minimize that impact. I also try to expand my understanding, and thus help further others become conscientious aquarists themselves.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
    Navarchus, Feb 26, 2010
    #49
  10. sen5241b

    Bifferwine I am a girl

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    It's not dumb, it's true. Intelligence studies performed on various animals have shown that pigs are one of the most intelligent mammals (in the top 10 most intelligent species on the planet, in fact). Pigs are known to be smarter than dogs, and rank only under primates. It is well known that pigs can surpass toddlers in intelligence tests and learning tasks. You can look it up if you want -- it's well documented in the scientific literature. For example, pigs are capabale of learning, memorizing and understanding more words (250) than the average toddler.

    SLA Biomedical & Life Sciences Division Blog: The Intelligence of Pigs
    Research|Penn State: Are pigs smarter than dogs?
    Re: Have pigs got a higher IQ than dogs?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/science/10angier.html?_r=1
    The Intelligent Pig: The Smartest Domestic Animal in The World

    More on-topic, this particular killer whale in question was wild caught off the coast of Iceland in 1983, and was shipped around to various zoos until he ended up at Sea World. I do wonder if it makes a difference in their temperments if they are wild caught or captive bred.
     
    Bifferwine, Feb 26, 2010
    #50
  11. sen5241b

    yote Ceritfied Mantis Hunter Moderator

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    There is a HUGE difference in the temperments between wild caught and captive breed.
    #1 That animal (dont matter if its a whale,deer,rabbit,raccoon) has the instincts that say that humans are either a threat or food.But flip the coin over and they see humans as something thats either dringing them a treat,going to pet them,or mistreat them.

    I remember reading that the whale grabbed the trainer by her pony tail.So I wonder how many times they had him playing with a fraid rope.Whose to say that he didnt mistake her ponytail as something he been trained to play with?
     
    yote, Feb 26, 2010
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  12. sen5241b

    motorcyclereefer I am Graffiti Petey

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    +1 Yote

    But if an animal is wild caught they have all the instincts of the wild conterparts. Even captive breed animals can turn. When working with animals you have to remember that they can turn on you.
     
    motorcyclereefer, Feb 26, 2010
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  13. sen5241b

    dcantucson

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    None the less a trainer has been killed and it has been linked to two other deaths. Because no one knows if it was or was not playing. I think it needs to be isolated and no one should be allowed into the tank again with it. I don't think further risks should be allowed to happen.
     
    dcantucson, Feb 26, 2010
    #53
  14. sen5241b

    mng777777 Shark Wrangler Wannabe

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    I think that's really the shocking part of this story. After the first time it killed it should have been rehabbed and released back into the wild.
     
    mng777777, Feb 26, 2010
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  15. sen5241b

    Navarchus Almost smarter than a pig

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    This is one of those things that I just don't need to research. A pig is not as smart as a four year old. Any "scientific literature" that says otherwise is simply wrong.

    My daughter is four years old. She speaks fluent English AND Japanese--thousands of words in each language. She can spell. She makes cognitive connections. She reasons, understands property rights, figures things out on her own, knows how to negotiate, plays the piano, draws, colors, and is beginning to read. She invents games with unique rules, communicates her feelings, knows personal hygene (brushes her teeth, uses the toilette, blows her nose). She has an understanding of God. She does ballet, figureskating, and puts on performances. I could go on and on and on (not that i haven't already).

    It is simply absurd to tell me that a pig's intelligence surpasses my daughter's intelligence. (clealy a pig surpasses MY intelligence, but not my daughter's.)

    I can believe that a pig is smarter than a dog. Dogs = not that smart; 4year-olds = amazingly smart.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
    Navarchus, Feb 26, 2010
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  16. sen5241b

    dcantucson

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    Are you crazy? Didn't you ever watch Green Acres? Arnold the pig could do all those things. :mrgreen:
     
    dcantucson, Feb 26, 2010
    #56
  17. sen5241b

    mng777777 Shark Wrangler Wannabe

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    Your daughter sounds like she has a busy schedule! You can tell based on a child's interests and progress how involved their parents are in their life. I just want to say GOOD JOB! I can tell that your daughter is very special to you and that you are doing a wonderful job raising her!
     
    mng777777, Feb 26, 2010
    #57
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  18. sen5241b

    sen5241b

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    I just love these people, with no expertise of any kind, who proclaim that ALL scientists on the subject are completely wrong and they have got it all figured out.
     
    sen5241b, Feb 26, 2010
    #58
  19. sen5241b

    Navarchus Almost smarter than a pig

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    No expertise? I have a four year old. That's expertise baby!
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
    Navarchus, Feb 26, 2010
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  20. sen5241b

    Sharkie The Damsel Defender

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    only bad thing about that is isolation=more aggressive behavior, Now that the orca has been in captivity for so long and is USED to human interaction (weather positive or negative, and i'm sure there have been negative intereactions such as taking him from his real home) and if they are neglected of that they will cause lots of problems tank wise...

    I don't want to compare our sting rays to orcas but its an example I can think of and use... When steve irwin was killed everyone FREAKED about our rays, "OMG THEY ARE GOING TO KILL US" We tried to assure and SHOW our guests that these rays didn't have stingers and in fact loved people... well, a few weeks went by and NO ONE would pet them-mind you these are rays that get petted and fed by the public everyday, because of this two of them JUMPED out of their exhibit! the rays are SO used to that interaction (and note some of these rays are wild caught) that when they were "isolated" and denied their usual pettings, they caused problems by trying to get out for attention.

    The orca is going to do the same thing, in a different way of course, But more like RAMMING against the tank walls, glass, trying to jump into their next door neighbors tank (most of their holding tanks are all lined up in a row with easy access for someone to jump over, we also have this problem at the TOPP building and sea world in san diego) and causing those whales to be irrated, causing even more of an uproar, it would be a domino effect of negative events, all because ONE thing happened. No one can say whats triggered the whale, you have to remember these guys are INTELLIGENT and can and will remember faces, for all we know he could have associated her with someone who had treated him bad in the past and taken them out, more times than naught animals will remember the negative effects people have bestowed apon them and will take action on those things. And not to side with the orca, but he doesn't belong isolated, if anything they would make him the 2nd example of how much sea world is sadded by the accident BUT how they are willing to relocate him to his natural habitat and get him accepted back into the pod, not just dumping him there.

    Basically, free willy but more... accurate and with the same type of "we'll help you if you don't make it there" thing. He deserves to go back to his natural habitat, not isolated... Isolation will kill him, they are social animals, why else would they live in pods?


    as far as pigs go, they rock at being smart. Brents neighbor has two (Ham and Porkchops lol) and they are smarter than brents dog by far, plus they think they are dogs and "help" herd the cows... we have some smart 4 yr olds, buts its because of parents that i think in a way FORCE it apon their kids. 4 yr olds should be able to play games that they've created, watch cartoons, and play with legos all day :) not worry about piano (i did at 4 :grumble:) or ballet, or anything else that has to do with "making your kid more intelligent". Let kids be kids :) so what if a pig is smarter, a kids got a lotta things a pig cant do.
     
    Sharkie, Feb 26, 2010
    #60
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