ok.. something is not right..

[poksal]

Problem Evidence:
Have never been able to keep a snail alive for more that 24-48 hours. Currently, I went without snails for a month. Zoa’s don’t thrive and generally algae up or wither. Most recently thought things must be ok as all water test seem to be ok (posted below) so I tried a Conch Snail and a Bristle Star. Both died in around 36 hours. A feather duster (1/2” dia.) died after about a week. Shrimp don’t last but two to three days. I have taken extreme care to drip acclimate them carefully.

Clues:
All fish are apparently happy, fat and robust. Hermits are doing fine ( I haven’t seen them this morning but that is not unusual) and some hermits have been with the tank since it was alive. I don’t think I have ever lost a hermit. The tank birth day was about Sept. 10th this year. There is a 15 gallon sump with some filter floss at the input side from the tank return and skimmer. This floss gets cleaned often. I plan to remove it when the tank matures but in the mean time it helps with the bubble control. There is a refuge with plenty of LR. The skimmer makes enough pea soup to convince me it is doing a quality enough job,(don’t ask the brand of skimmer because I haven’t a clue as I got it used --- and is it is performing well enough to not be the problem.) All corals added are dipped in “one shot”. Mushrooms are doing just fine.
I use nothing but RODI and have two units, one for my tank ATO and one for my change water. I use an RODI fill tank to avoid RODI short circuit problems for ATO. My city water tests at 174 and is at 132 after the first stage of filtering, after the RO and DI filters both systems show 000 at their installed meters.

Things that have changed over the life of the tank and haven’t seemed to improve the ability to keep snails or zoa’s: The refuge is about half as old as the tank. I added a GFO and carbon reactor about a month ago and currently have that circuit valve turned off. I am currently breaking in an algae scrubber as an effort to solve the problem and it seems to be slow IMO to get going although it has plenty of flow, light, and (I think) food. I had the skimmer off for a short spell when I added the Conch and Bristle Starr to be sure they wouldn’t starve. I have a 18” tall Vertex reactor I purchased for bio pellets but am running it full of LR rubble and it was put online about 6 weeks ago. I started with MH lights and switch to LED’s and could not keep snails before or after that change, nor did zoa’s.

Additional information:
I can’t keep snails or shrimp alive in the refuge either. There are no hermits in the refuge…. Note the various things I have changed and none of those have affected nor apparently corrected the problem. This makes me wonder about a chemical I haven’t tested for. I’d think the GFO and carbon reactors would of had some effect on that possibility. I have been changing water at about 15% for the last three weeks at between 4 to 7 day intervals. I don’t think the feather duster starved because I have been feeding Phyto Feast for the last week at the fuge and added a small amount in the flow to the duster. Additionally I am not sure but I’m fairly sure I’m not having normal luck keeping PODs, but I have nothing to compare with and they are hard to spot.The water is rarely crystal clear but IMO may be because I am changing things often in an effort to find the problem. It tends to be a slightly milky most of the time. This seems to be better in the AM after the lights have been off for the night, or that could be my imagination. There should be PLENTY of LR.

I came home from a trip to Mom’s to find the Brittle Star, Conch, and Feather Duster dead .. my best response was to toss my hands in the air and say, “what the hell”.

In my opinion this is a time to show grit as a cohesive team to solve this problem so that these creatures can live a healthy life. So consider me as the collective team's hands or lab tech so we can fix it.

Chemistry: (ND means not detectable)
95 gallons if tank about 30 gallons of refuge/sumps/etc.
Temp = 25.6°C +/-.3°C (78.08°f); Salinity = 33; pH = 8.2; Phosphates = .1; Alk = 11; Nitrate = ND; Nitrites = ND; Copper = ND; Ammonia = ND; Calcium = 480; Mag = 1260

The basic tests were confirmed by my fav LFS.
If I need to test for something else.. just suggest it, I’m aboard!
Ask questions and expect answers.

 

[Kelz88]

Perhaps something is eating them? A crab maybe...

The large hermits can go rogue sometimes. When the snails die is there a body or just a shell? What exactly kind of fish do you have?

 

[poksal]

Perhaps something is eating them? A crab maybe...

The large hermits can go rogue sometimes. When the snails die is there a body or just a shell? What exactly kind of fish do you have?

I am convinced it is not the hermits, .... the snails are usually body intact but dead. Since I'm working so hard on this I really watch. and there is the huge (about a foot across) brittle star. Snails don't survive in the refuge where I have no crabs as a control test of that.

Fish: two clowns, four damsels, a six line, a lavender tang,

Perhaps a predator I am not seeing.. I did spot a tiny crab, redish blonde, with sharp pincers, I intend to try and trap him in the very near future. but I don't think he killed the snails.

Thank you... keep thinking!!!!!!

EDIT: I still haven't seen any live hermits this AM.. and that IS strange... could of that large brittle star attacked them and died of wounds while I was gone three days?

 

[Kelz88]

Do you have any algae? If not they could be starving...

And you checked for stray voltage if i remember correctly right?

Only other thing i can think of would be something we dont normally test for or something that is getting through the rodi for some reason

 

[poksal]

UPDATE:
Something changed the timer to the lights just before I left for Mom's this weekend.. and they were on from 4AM until 7PM each day .. ....this apparently caused the pH to drop to about 7.7. So ....this may contribute to the star and conch deaths.. as well as the feather duster. am I thinking right?

so... I grabbed my nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia test kits too, and they are ok.

I turned the lights off so the pH can buffer back into range. Am I taking the right procedure???

 

[wontonflip]

You can also keep the ph steady by running lights in the fuge opposite the main tank, or just leave the fuge lights on 24/7.

Plus I remember Yote saying that there have been some bad shipments of inverts that came into his store. Could be affecting other places if they get them from the same place.

And maybe the place you get them from didn't properly acclimate them. Could be anything. Try ordering from some other place.

 

[poksal]

You can also keep the ph steady by running lights in the fuge opposite the main tank, or just leave the fuge lights on 24/7.

Plus I remember Yote saying that there have been some bad shipments of inverts that came into his store. Could be affecting other places if they get them from the same place.

And maybe the place you get them from didn't properly acclimate them. Could be anything. Try ordering from some other place.

I love the way you are thinking.. AND that you are trying to help!!! .... but I have purchased from different LFSs and over a period of a few months...

Keep it coming... please

Also, I do the refuge lights on at night thing... coarse this time is an exception as something miss-adjusted my timer. grrrrrrrr.

 

[Cheeser]

Did u buy ur tank used?

 

[poksal]

Did u buy ur tank used?

>>>> yes <<<<<
I get your drift keep talking.. and yes I did scrub the hell out of it..as I knew how then... I think I wiped all surfaces down with alcohol after scrubbing with a scouring pad (no one with soap) and rinsed several times.

 

[baeya]

I'm very new to this but, what concerns me is when you said the water is milky. Could your LR be leaching something?

 

[poksal]

I'm very new to this but, what concerns me is when you said the water is milky. Could you LR be leaching something?

I don't know... maybe... by milky I mean seldom crystal clear and tends towards the milky rather than the brackish or spoiled cloudiness.

and an UPDATE: I have spotted a hermit alive and well so most likely the rest are too.

also, I'm frequently messing with something in an effort to locate the snail problem so it is reasonable to assume the tank never really gets a chance to completely settle into one eco balance....I guess.. but my opinion is loosing value to me in a hurry.

As of late it was clearing up,, then this light timing pH swing thing (while I was gone for the weekend - read 1st post of this thread) may of caused that because with the lights off to allow the pH to buffer the water is absolutely clearing up. To support that... I did remove a dead conch, good sized star fish, and large fan worm this AM. Those alone were plenty of reason to find cloudy water when I returned... scratching my head... and yes it is absolutely clearing..............

and again .. thank you. keep thinking!!!!! we need to solve this!!!

 

[Cheeser]

im just wondering if there could be any copper in the silicone from any medication, or some anything like that?

 

[poksal]

im just wondering if there could be any copper in the silicone from any medication, or some anything like that?

Me too, so I test copper with a Red Sea kit and it stays non-detectable. ... as noted in my original post.

keep it coming!

could there be another element to test for in some cases? if so sick me on it.

 

[Kelz88]

iron maybe? Iodine? could be copper leeching... enough to kill inverts but not enough to be detected or some other thing that was used in the tank and absorbed into the silicone.

I dont think the ph swing would be enough to do them in tbh I dont turn my lights on at the exact same time every day (no timer) and dont have them on the exact amount of time each day

hmmmm what kind of heater do you have?

 

[poksal]

iron maybe? Iodine? could be copper leeching... enough to kill inverts but not enough to be detected or some other thing that was used in the tank and absorbed into the silicone. ******* hmmmm what kind of heater do you have?

Iron, iodine, maybe minute amounts of copper... could be I suppose... I tend to wonder if the previous had problems and added treatments.. I don't have a way to find him and there were some things about hardware and plumbing that clue me to his not being to savvy on this hobby. Can I test for iron and iodine in any reasonable method? In that light I guess I should run my GFO and carbon reactors 24/7 'til we get answers.

As for the heater.. I'm not sure what kind because I altered it so it runs under the control of my STC 1000 and none of the electrics are exposed to the water - it is not submersed. The water temp is stable... damned stable., IMO.

Thank you for trying.. keep it up please.

In the mean time I'm going for another simple power head.

 

[bjohanson1234]

Me too, so I test copper with a Red Sea kit and it stays non-detectable. ... as noted in my original post.

keep it coming!

could there be another element to test for in some cases? if so sick me on it.

I have recently read that even at non detectable levels, copper can be toxic to inverts. This is because the copper tests are designed for use while dosing copper for parasites. The levels can still be 10 times higher than natural sea water yet still be toxic to some of the more sensitive creatures in our tank. Will try to find the discussion that I read.

 

[bjohanson1234]

The concentration of copper in the ocean is 0.000254 ppm (0.254 ppb). Obviously at that level it is not harmful to anything, so why anyone would point to this is beyond me. To put this in perspective, that's the same as saying 1-1/2 people out of the entire population on Earth. Current world population is approximately 6 billion.

Copper is harmful, even lethal, to some invertebrates, especially mollusks, at levels as low as 2-5 ppb. Note that that level would be 10 times NSW levels. It is not harmful to fish at these low levels. It is harmful to fish in the low ppm range. That's ppm, not ppb.

Test kits cannot detect copper in the low ppb range. Test kits are designed to detect copper in the range that it is commonly used as a therapeutic for fish. Cupramine, for example, is recommended at 0.5 ppm to treat marine ich. However, if you let the copper level rise to say 5 ppm, you could end up killing your fish.

Usually the copper that is adsorbed to glass tank walls and then subsequently released into the water column is in the ppb range, not the ppm range. However, this is enough to kill off snails, polychaetes, and some other sensitive inverts. When fish are killed, it is usually caused by something like brass plumbing fittings and not adsorbed copper.

Excerpt from this thread.
Copper absorbs into glass...no...

 

[poksal]

Excerpt from this thread.
Copper absorbs into glass...no...

After reading nearly every word of that, I have a problem seeing copper as the problem when it is in low enough to not be detectable with our test kits amounts. 'Basing much of my opinion on tanks being used to house inverts after the tank was used for a copper containing med with positive results. I do admit my opinion is very weak. Also, there is an area in my tank around the stand pipes with a large amount of silicon that does not need to be there. If I remove that exposed silicone I will be doing no damage to my tank and will be removing a high % of the exposed silicone that may of absorbed copper enough that a snails may be actually eating algae off of and dying.

So, I will be removing those non-needed areas of exposed silicone... most likely this evening.

 

[yote]

Just my 2 cents. But I doubt that the PH dropping to 7.7 has anythng to do with your invert problem. It would have had to drop instantly to have killed the snails.And if that had happened, it would have killd your fish to.

I think I read that you had a little cloudiness in the tank too. If thats that case, you've got somethng going on with the water.Probaby some type of bacteria. But that usually wouldn't kill the snails either unless it was accompanied by an ammonia spike.

Have you had your LFS test the water? If nothing else it would verify you test results against theirs.

 

[FishyReef]

Did you test for stray voltage in both your DT and sump? I'm vaguely recalling that you did and set up a grounding probe - if so, did you put a separate grounding probe in your sump and is it indeed connected to a grounded outlet?

My thoughts are stray voltage, copper, or bad snails. I'd recommend placing an order with reef cleaners, acclimating per their instructions (which is different than normal drip acclimation), and see how they do. Their snails are supposed to very hearty to changes in water chemistry because they come from tidal pools.

As for the brittestar - they ship poorly and can never be exposed to air. Even if you didn't expose it, one of the LFS employees may have, or it may have been exposed along the chain of command from collection to the LFS. They are also apparently sensitive to the oils in our hands so best to use gloves when handling them - again, even if you used gloves, someone else along the way may not have.

Zoas are just a PITA - some do fine, others melt right away, and others do fine for months and then bam, seem to melt over night. I doubt the snail problems are related to your zoas. For the zoas, what types of light do you have, how are you acclimating them to your lights, where are you getting them from, how much flow are they getting?

And one last thought - keep your hands out of the tank! You might either be introducing something to the tank (like if you accidentally have lotion on your hands, etc), or every time you move stuff around are disturbing your corals and critters. Seriously, just let things sit for a while and see what happens (hard as hell, I know!)