Overdriving NO Tubes

Discussion in 'Reef Fishes' started by Mort, Aug 21, 2003.

  1. Mort

    Pszemol Guest

    "Mort" <NOlordmort@SPAMsbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:nJd1b.11099$Ih1.4063895@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
    > Well, I admit I do not know this man very well, but he claims that someone
    > he knows has a device that measures the light output and he said that
    > fixture "was clocked at 130watts"


    Photographers are using simple device to measure light intensity
    in a given point, so there is the way to measure light output
    relatively cheap and easy but measuring the light spectrum, which
    changes over time and changes when you change tube driving conditions
    is not so easy.

    If I were you, I would ask your friend about the details of the
    measurment process. How exactly he come up with the "was clocked
    at 130watts" statement. Did you compared the light output to the
    nominaly driven 130W VHO fixture? Or just added wattage of his
    balasts he has used? These two are not the same. And I highly
    doubt the overdriven NO tube will produce the same amount of light
    as VHO tube, so I would bet he just added wattage of balasts.
    Which is totaly wrong, because of the nature of the electric current
    flowing inside the fluorescent tube when driven by electronic balast.

    > So anyway... Naturally I have questions about this and that
    > is why I am here ;)


    Sure...
     
    Pszemol, Aug 22, 2003
    #21
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  2. Mort

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vkc65jkalq0b93@corp.supernews.com...
    > meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to become
    > heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV, HPS
    > and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to the
    > light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs.


    Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please :))
    From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not
    get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they
    emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors
    mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started
    by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about 600V
    and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on both
    ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered
    voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating.
    The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass
    type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube.
    It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce
    secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of spectrum.
    The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not
    generate light - sorry Boomer :)

    > And to much pressure can make the
    > bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure.


    Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against overdriving.
    I should mentioned this on my list before :)

    p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again :))))
     
    Pszemol, Aug 22, 2003
    #22
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  3. Pszemol wrote:

    > I do not understand the logic - sorry... This is not the sign of aggression, but
    > it does not make sense: you religiosly change VHOs every 6 months for what
    > reason? Does the same reason apply to overdriven NO tubes or not?
    > If so, why do you change them based on the look, while you change VHOs
    > even if they still look good? Overdriving NO does not make it VHO! :)


    I religiously change VHOs at 6 months because that is the life span of these bulbs. Now, who's
    told me that? Tons of people. Is it true? Don't know, but why rock the boat yet again? If that
    is the lifespan, so be it. Now if I've been misled and they are good for 8 or 9 months, well it's
    too late now. ;)

    >
    > > It states 6500K. That is the color spectrum of that bulb.

    >
    > When overdriven?


    Sure, why not? <talk about opening a can of worms here> As you know, I'm in it for the hobby not
    the science. It *looked* good to me.

    > > Yes, but some things can't be fudged. They can't say this bulb reduces algae or anything.
    > > They state what color to expect. I think that would be a reasonably honest thing to do.

    >
    > They do not state how this tube behaves when overdriven.


    True, but the person that suggested this to me in the first place is someone I trust.

    > How much do you save now each year? :)


    Nothing. :( However, I can finally get an Table acropora. Yay!!

    Marc


    --
    Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
     
    Marc Levenson, Aug 22, 2003
    #23
  4. Mort

    Pszemol Guest

    "Richard Reynolds" <reynolds46@cox.net> wrote in message news:H4v1b.8737$Qy4.1863@fed1read05...
    > > > How much do you save now each year? :)

    >
    > I dont understand that concept ???


    I have indicated my question with :) sign!
    The whole thread is about saving money, isn't it? :))))
    If there was not problem with money nobody would bother
    with overdriving NO tubes...

    > > Nothing. :( However, I can finally get an Table acropora. Yay!!

    >
    > I do understand that concept :)


    Every hobby is very expensive when you become seriously involved.
    Money are not important anymore when you want to achieve something
    out of ordinary in your hobby.
     
    Pszemol, Aug 22, 2003
    #24
  5. Mort

    Pszemol Guest

    "Marc Levenson" <melev@swbell.net> wrote in message news:3F468171.61F58ED4@swbell.net...
    > It's all in the wording. And in the eyes of the reader. :)


    I am affraid I can do a little about that then...

    > > But we are not talking about VHO, right?

    >
    > Right. But we are using a VHO ballast.


    So what? :) Is the balast the reason we replace VHO every 6 months?

    > > We are talking about overdriven NO tubes.
    > > Who has measured here the spectrum changing over time
    > > given by the overdriven NO tubes?

    >
    > I don't know. The guy that pointed me to this idea has contacts with many vendors, and has been
    > in the marine industry for a long time. I figured he might have been told by someone that
    > actually did the tests. I wonder if Sanjay Yoshi might have done it yet? If so, he'd have your
    > answer. If I see him at Macna next month, I'll ask him and post his response.


    Thank you. It would be much more reliable information than "it looks good for me" :)

    > You argue too good. Gonna be a lawyer one day? Or simply the Devil's Advocate? ;)


    I am The Devil myself :)

    > > OK - the question is: is it still really 6500K when overdriven?
    > > How is the spectrum change with overdriving the tube?
    > > Do you know that and can asure us that nothing changes except the intensity?

    >
    > Maybe Sanjay will know.


    People in this thread indicated the tubes change slightly in color.
    And this was visible change. There are probably more hard to notice changes.
    Lets wait for his answer.

    > > Was it to contradict opinion about wrong spectrum promoting algae grow?
    > > Or maybe to contradict opinion that overdriven tubes change the spectrum?

    >
    > Statement #1.


    Interesting... and I can read about this in so many places...
    Probably in the same places I read about replacing VHO every 6 months :)))

    So why do you replace VHO bulbs religiously every 6 months
    if you do not care too much about the right light spectrum?
    You said you do not see the difference in light, but you still change them. Why?

    See? This is the reason I react questioning reasoning here :))) Do not blame me.

    > I can't say yet. Cost of bulbs, cost of consumed electricity, cost of replacement ballasts....
    >
    > PCs seem like the best bet economically to me.
     
    Pszemol, Aug 22, 2003
    #25
  6. eeek sorry thought youd recognize that as a joke bout actually saving money, vs taking
    some $ from one thing and spending it on another, the money is still gone to this fun
    hobby :)

    --
    Richard Reynolds
    Richard.Reynolds@usa.net
     
    Richard Reynolds, Aug 22, 2003
    #26
  7. Mort

    Boomer Guest

    I do not need to correct myself :) and might add you have mis-read this and misexplained
    some things

    I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -)

    "which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they
    emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors
    mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... "

    Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to ionize Argon. What
    makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon. Do you have ref.
    that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or are you just
    assuming that ?

    "If you use UV-transparent glass
    type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube."

    It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that, producing UV not
    Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs.


    "It is not the pressure which generates light. "

    I never said pressure generates light, I said

    "Increasing bulb
    pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added heat
    and overdrive"

    and

    "Gas pressure = more lumens / watt"


    Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases output. A bulb
    with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower efficacy rating
    than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy than a non-Argon
    filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the wattage required to
    attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that Argon adds at
    all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve

    This is how things work;
    When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that current through the
    electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The heat generated
    heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium, Strontium,
    Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons. These electrons
    travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are also released by
    the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical discharge arch or
    plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal pressure, causing
    liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become vaporized and shed
    electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These electrons fall
    back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still receiving current.
    This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat. The light so
    produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors, materials that are
    capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave lengths, there is a
    change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to fluorescence by
    UV to the proper wave length.

    Some known examples of phosphors and their colors

    Cadmium Borate = Pink

    Calcium Halophospahte = White

    Calcium Silicate = Orange

    Calcium Tungstate = Blue

    Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White

    Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green

    Zinc Silicate = Green


    Please consult

    GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent Lamps, 22 pages



    --
    Boomer

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ?
    Please Join Our Growing Membership
    www.coralrealm.com

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:bi4n4u.4ic.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    : "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:vkc65jkalq0b93@corp.supernews.com...
    : > meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to
    become
    : > heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV,
    HPS
    : > and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to the
    : > light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs.
    :
    : Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please :))
    : From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not
    : get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they
    : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors
    : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started
    : by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about 600V
    : and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on both
    : ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered
    : voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating.
    : The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass
    : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube.
    : It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce
    : secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of spectrum.
    : The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not
    : generate light - sorry Boomer :)
    :
    : > And to much pressure can make the
    : > bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure.
    :
    : Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against overdriving.
    : I should mentioned this on my list before :)
    :
    : p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again :))))
     
    Boomer, Aug 22, 2003
    #27
  8. Mort

    Boomer Guest

    oop's forgot

    GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps : Metal Arch, Engineering Bulletin 0-344

    GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps : Lumalux Lamps, Engineering Bulletin 0-348

    GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps: Mercury Lamps, Engineering Bulletin 0-346


    --
    Boomer

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ?
    Please Join Our Growing Membership
    www.coralrealm.com

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vkd7d5i4ueu237@corp.supernews.com...
    : I hope I wasn't to aggressive :)
    :
    : --
    : Boomer
    :
    : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    :
    : Want to See More ?
    : Please Join Our Growing Membership
    : www.coralrealm.com
    :
    : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    : "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:vkd51pihp0cj8d@corp.supernews.com...
    : : I do not need to correct myself :) and might add you have mis-read this and
    : misexplained
    : : some things
    : :
    : : I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -)
    : :
    : : "which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they
    : : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors
    : : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... "
    : :
    : : Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to ionize Argon.
    : What
    : : makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon. Do you have
    : ref.
    : : that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or are you just
    : : assuming that ?
    : :
    : : "If you use UV-transparent glass
    : : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube."
    : :
    : : It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that, producing UV not
    : : Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs.
    : :
    : :
    : : "It is not the pressure which generates light. "
    : :
    : : I never said pressure generates light, I said
    : :
    : : "Increasing bulb
    : : pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added
    heat
    : : and overdrive"
    : :
    : : and
    : :
    : : "Gas pressure = more lumens / watt"
    : :
    : :
    : : Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases output. A bulb
    : : with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower efficacy
    rating
    : : than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy than a
    non-Argon
    : : filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the wattage required
    : to
    : : attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that Argon adds
    at
    : : all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve
    : :
    : : This is how things work;
    : : When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that current through
    the
    : : electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The heat
    : generated
    : : heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium, Strontium,
    : : Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons. These electrons
    : : travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are also released
    by
    : : the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical discharge arch or
    : : plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal pressure,
    causing
    : : liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become vaporized and shed
    : : electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These electrons
    : fall
    : : back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still receiving
    current.
    : : This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat. The light
    so
    : : produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors, materials that are
    : : capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave lengths, there
    is
    : a
    : : change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to
    fluorescence
    : by
    : : UV to the proper wave length.
    : :
    : : Some known examples of phosphors and their colors
    : :
    : : Cadmium Borate = Pink
    : :
    : : Calcium Halophospahte = White
    : :
    : : Calcium Silicate = Orange
    : :
    : : Calcium Tungstate = Blue
    : :
    : : Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White
    : :
    : : Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green
    : :
    : : Zinc Silicate = Green
    : :
    : :
    : : Please consult
    : :
    : : GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent Lamps, 22 pages
    : :
    : :
    : :
    : : --
    : : Boomer
    : :
    : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    : : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    : :
    : : Want to See More ?
    : : Please Join Our Growing Membership
    : : www.coralrealm.com
    : :
    : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    : : "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:bi4n4u.4ic.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    : : : "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    : : news:vkc65jkalq0b93@corp.supernews.com...
    : : : > meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to
    : : become
    : : : > heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH,
    MV,
    : : HPS
    : : : > and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to
    : the
    : : : > light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs.
    : : :
    : : : Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please
    :))
    : : : From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not
    : : : get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they
    : : : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors
    : : : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started
    : : : by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about
    600V
    : : : and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on
    both
    : : : ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered
    : : : voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating.
    : : : The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass
    : : : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent
    tube.
    : : : It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce
    : : : secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of
    spectrum.
    : : : The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not
    : : : generate light - sorry Boomer :)
    : : :
    : : : > And to much pressure can make the
    : : : > bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure.
    : : :
    : : : Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against
    : overdriving.
    : : : I should mentioned this on my list before :)
    : : :
    : : : p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again
    : :))))
    : :
    : :
    :
    :
     
    Boomer, Aug 22, 2003
    #28
  9. Mort

    Pszemol Guest

    Right - I was mistaken - atoms of gases in the tube do not get
    ionized but only get excited and then when electrons return to their
    original state they emit UV - sorry Boomer, you are still The Oracle! :))
     
    Pszemol, Aug 23, 2003
    #29
  10. Mort

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vkd7d5i4ueu237@corp.supernews.com...
    > I hope I wasn't to aggressive :)


    No, but I will be put in King's dungeons for sure now :))))
    Am I correct, King Marc? ;-)))


    p.s. what an excellent newsgroup atmosphere here!
     
    Pszemol, Aug 23, 2003
    #30
  11. Mort

    Mort Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:vkd51pihp0cj8d@corp.supernews.com...
    > I do not need to correct myself :) and might add you have mis-read this

    and misexplained
    > some things
    >
    > I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -)
    >
    > "which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they
    > emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors
    > mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... "
    >
    > Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to

    ionize Argon. What
    > makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon.

    Do you have ref.
    > that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or

    are you just
    > assuming that ?
    >
    > "If you use UV-transparent glass
    > type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV

    fluorescent tube."
    >
    > It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that,

    producing UV not
    > Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs.
    >
    >
    > "It is not the pressure which generates light. "
    >
    > I never said pressure generates light, I said
    >
    > "Increasing bulb
    > pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due

    to added heat
    > and overdrive"
    >
    > and
    >
    > "Gas pressure = more lumens / watt"
    >
    >
    > Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases

    output. A bulb
    > with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower

    efficacy rating
    > than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy

    than a non-Argon
    > filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the

    wattage required to
    > attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that

    Argon adds at
    > all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve
    >
    > This is how things work;
    > When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that

    current through the
    > electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The

    heat generated
    > heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium,

    Strontium,
    > Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons.

    These electrons
    > travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are

    also released by
    > the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical

    discharge arch or
    > plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal

    pressure, causing
    > liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become

    vaporized and shed
    > electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These

    electrons fall
    > back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still

    receiving current.
    > This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat.

    The light so
    > produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors,

    materials that are
    > capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave

    lengths, there is a
    > change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to

    fluorescence by
    > UV to the proper wave length.
    >
    > Some known examples of phosphors and their colors
    >
    > Cadmium Borate = Pink
    >
    > Calcium Halophospahte = White
    >
    > Calcium Silicate = Orange
    >
    > Calcium Tungstate = Blue
    >
    > Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White
    >
    > Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green
    >
    > Zinc Silicate = Green
    >
    >
    > Please consult
    >
    > GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent

    Lamps, 22 pages
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Boomer
    >
    > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    >
    > Want to See More ?
    > Please Join Our Growing Membership
    > www.coralrealm.com
    >
    > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up



    Wow....
     
    Mort, Aug 23, 2003
    #31
  12. Mort

    Boomer Guest

    Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in fluro's
    and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the
    light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not where
    do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something losses
    or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit..


    "These electrons
    travel at high speed from one electrode to another."

    "This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light"
    --
    Boomer

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    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:bi5naa.2oc.1@poczta.onet.pl...
    : Right - I was mistaken - atoms of gases in the tube do not get
    : ionized but only get excited and then when electrons return to their
    : original state they emit UV - sorry Boomer, you are still The Oracle! :))
     
    Boomer, Aug 23, 2003
    #32
  13. Boomer wrote:

    > Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in fluro's
    > and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the
    > light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not where
    > do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something losses
    > or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit..
    >


    ..... and all this proves that overdriven NO bulbs are perfect spectrum-wise and last exactly
    180 days before they must be replaced! <VBG>

    Marc

    --
    Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
    Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
    Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
     
    Marc Levenson, Aug 23, 2003
    #33
  14. "Marc Levenson" <melev@swbell.net> wrote in message
    news:3F45ACAF.2FF0FB1B@swbell.net...


    > VHO have to be replaced every 6 months.
    >


    over on RC someone just told me that with electronic ballast that the VHO's
    will last a year.........any truth to it?

    curious as I prefer the looks of VHO's over PC's but my PC's last a year and
    past VHO's were actually less then 6 months.

    kc
     
    Dragon Slayer, Aug 23, 2003
    #34
  15. I've done it for over a year. It works very well. The selection of vho
    bulbs sucks but there are so many NO bulbs. I do not use normal 6500k
    bulbs like some recommend. The color temperature doesn't tell you
    anything, it's the light spectrum that matters. Photosynthesis mainly
    happens at particular ranges of blue and orange. Normal 6500k bulbs
    have little in this range -- their spectral output is mainly green &
    yellow with a little blue and orange.

    I replace NO bulbs every 5-6 months, compared with VHO @ 9-10 months.
    The obvious sign is darkening of the ends.

    I've kept clams, SPS & LPS under this setup. Look for bulbs with lots of
    light around 430nm, 480, and 660. That's key and I think that's one
    reason some people can't keep "difficult" stuff under fluorescents:
    they're using the wrong bulbs.

    JJ

    Mort wrote:
    >
    > Is anyone here familiar with overdriving NO fluorescent tubes?
    >
    > I met a DIYer today (Marc, that's the guy I told you about with those5 stage
    > RO/DI units) that does this to his lamps.
    >
    > Apparently you replace the balast with a higher output Electronic ballast
    > (About $10 from home depot) and it can double even triple the wattage of the
    > bulb. It operates at a higher frequency and does not shorten the life of
    > the bulb much at all. He's had a setup with a twin 30w 36" fixture that
    > with this balast is putting out 130watts after 1 year.
    >
    > Will this trickery work for marine aquaria and corals???
    >
    > ~Mort
     
    jackel55@NOSPAMpacbell.net, Aug 23, 2003
    #35
  16. Mort

    Boomer Guest

    "If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :))"

    But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :))


    "After all, I was not so wrong :))))) LOL!"

    OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........so now I will go pick on King Marc for
    you ;-)


    --
    Boomer

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    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:bi6ijo.2sk.1@poczta.onet.pl...
    : "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:vkddiqf4q778bb@corp.supernews.com...
    : > Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in
    fluro's
    : > and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the
    : > light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not
    where
    : > do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something
    losses
    : > or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit..
    :
    : Maybe I agree with you too quickly then? :)
    : If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :))
    : You said the current flow created plasma - what is plasma??
    : Plasma is ionized gas :)))
    : If it was not ionized, how the current would flow?
    : After initialy started, the voltage between ends of the tube is smaller,
    : around 80-90V, not sufficient for electrons to jump from filament to filament :)
    : They would need some ionized medium to travel across in the tube...
    :
    : So, summing up: gases ARE ionized inside tube and they ARE producing UV rays.
    :
     
    Boomer, Aug 23, 2003
    #36
  17. Mort

    Mort Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:vkeoqmqqjpine6@corp.supernews.com...
    > "If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :))"
    >
    > But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least

    for Argon :))
    >
    >
    > "After all, I was not so wrong :))))) LOL!"
    >
    > OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........so now I will go pick on

    King Marc for
    > you ;-)
    >
    >
    > --
    > Boomer
    >


    LoL, Run your majesty, RUN!
     
    Mort, Aug 23, 2003
    #37
  18. Mort

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vkeoqmqqjpine6@corp.supernews.com...
    > "If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :))"
    >
    > But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :))


    I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :))
    But I admit, I had no idea about the relation between pressure and output.
    I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes change color over time
    as you stated each kind of phosphor has a different burn-out rate, so if
    over time, let's say, 2 of 3 phosphors will burn out you will got one
    phosphor tube after a couple of months, not three-phosphors tube like new one.
    And overdriving any tube will dresticaly shorten its life - that is the fact.
    So if 6-12 months rule apply to all "nominaly" driven tubes, those overdriven
    will change over time much faster and need to be replaced more often to keep
    their light-output parameters. I guess we both agree in that matter.
    And this was the point of the main conversation, not the nature of fluoroscence :)

    > "After all, I was not so wrong :))))) LOL!"
    >
    > OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........
    > so now I will go pick on King Marc for you ;-)


    Thank you :))
     
    Pszemol, Aug 23, 2003
    #38
  19. Mort

    Boomer Guest

    "I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :))"

    OK, I'll let you off the hook since you say ""gases in the tube" , in which case the only
    real "gas" is Mercury vapor and only Mercury vapor, with the very very small addition of
    some of he emissive material being "gases".Aragon is a true gas and not a vapor.

    One other thing;

    "Plasma is ionized gas :)))"

    Well, that is only half of it. :)) A Plasma is a stream of positively charged ions
    accompanied by about equal proportions of electrons

    "I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes "

    I know the guy personnel, that invented all of the tri lamps with the built in reflectors,
    Dr. Perry Thrasher, know matter what name is on the bulb. Perry has left the company ,do
    to illness and I haven't found out where he went other than California for health reasons.
    Me and JB ( John Burleson) had the first sets :)

    http://www.light-sources.com/


    --
    Boomer

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    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:bi813s$k79$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
    : "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:vkeoqmqqjpine6@corp.supernews.com...
    : > "If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :))"
    : >
    : > But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :))
    :
    : I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :))
    : But I admit, I had no idea about the relation between pressure and output.
    : I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes change color over time
    : as you stated each kind of phosphor has a different burn-out rate, so if
    : over time, let's say, 2 of 3 phosphors will burn out you will got one
    : phosphor tube after a couple of months, not three-phosphors tube like new one.
    : And overdriving any tube will dresticaly shorten its life - that is the fact.
    : So if 6-12 months rule apply to all "nominaly" driven tubes, those overdriven
    : will change over time much faster and need to be replaced more often to keep
    : their light-output parameters. I guess we both agree in that matter.
    : And this was the point of the main conversation, not the nature of fluoroscence :)
    :
    : > "After all, I was not so wrong :))))) LOL!"
    : >
    : > OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........
    : > so now I will go pick on King Marc for you ;-)
    :
    : Thank you :))
     
    Boomer, Aug 24, 2003
    #39
  20. Mort

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@chartermi.net> wrote in message news:vkhhifjc5nfabb@corp.supernews.com...
    > "I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :))"
    >
    > OK, I'll let you off the hook since you say ""gases in the tube" , in which case the only
    > real "gas" is Mercury vapor and only Mercury vapor, with the very very small addition of
    > some of he emissive material being "gases".


    Ok, thank you for your mercy ;-)

    > Aragon is a true gas and not a vapor.


    I do not like the "true gas" term... How do you define it?
    Gas is gas :) There is no true gas or false gas :))
    Almost every matter can change phase from state to liquid and gas
    and all of it depends of the temperature. But I guess you call Argon
    "a true gas" because it has gas phase in a room temperature, right? :)

    > One other thing;
    >
    > "Plasma is ionized gas :)))"
    >
    > Well, that is only half of it. :)) A Plasma is a stream of positively charged
    > ions accompanied by about equal proportions of electrons


    By "ionized gas" I ment whole gas in state of ionizations.
    No ions alone, but with electrons detached from original atoms too :)
    But some of missunderstanding here can be derived from the fact,
    that English is my second language, as it was stated correctly
    on this ng recently :))

    > "I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes "
    >
    > I know the guy personnel, that invented all of the tri lamps with the built in reflectors,
    > Dr. Perry Thrasher, know matter what name is on the bulb. Perry has left the company ,do
    > to illness and I haven't found out where he went other than California for health reasons.
    > Me and JB ( John Burleson) had the first sets :)
    >
    > http://www.light-sources.com/


    Do I understand correctly you are saying design of gas discharge lamps are your profession?
     
    Pszemol, Aug 24, 2003
    #40
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