Rose anenome splitting

Discussion in 'Reef Fishes' started by TW, Apr 1, 2006.

  1. TW

    Boomer Guest

    Your assumption would be correct

    Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion.
    As long as you know what you are doing"

    Meaning you can keep all these with lions, if you know what you are doing. I kept a 12 "
    Volitans for 12 years in a 55 gal , with smaller fish and always with a pair of mated
    RBCS.

    --
    Boomer

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

    Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
    http://www.coralrealm.com



    "AverageSchmuck" <jschmoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:ik38325puprp66rt6bllqssgu346bsnqk7@4ax.com...
    : My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
    : Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have
    : learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog).
    : Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is
    : rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here.
    :
    : On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:50:20 -0500, "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com>
    : wrote:
    :
    : >"Boomer" <wcwing@nospamchartermi.net> wrote in message news:EeTYf.19$1H4.11@fe06.lga...
    : >> You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common
    lol.
    : >> Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion.
    : >> As long as you know what you are doing
    : >
    : >What exactly are you saying here ? What do you refer to by "same"?
    :
     
    Boomer, Apr 5, 2006
    #41
    1. Advertisements

  2. TW

    Boomer Guest

    PZ the are not aggressive ( in regards to feeding on tanks mates, which is really not
    aggression) in captivity most of the time. Most that have lions will tell you they are not
    aggressive at all but quite peaceful. That does not mean always. . Lions are very
    peaceful, useless some fish or shrimp pisses it off. The pretty much just sit and mind
    their own business. Many people have put lions in tanks only to loose tanks mates as a
    food item. If you make the lion happy it pretty much leaves all other fish and inverts
    alone. Please lets not get started on words again but a lion eating fish and shrimp, is
    not aggression or aggressive behavior, it is just eating, feeding its self :). Matter
    of fact one needs to be careful with some fish, which are aggressive and pick on lions,
    usually the tail and large side fins, often with the lion still showing no signs of
    aggression.

    --
    Boomer

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

    Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
    http://www.coralrealm.com



    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:e10ipj.ha4.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    : "AverageSchmuck" <jschmoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:ik38325puprp66rt6bllqssgu346bsnqk7@4ax.com...
    : > My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
    : > Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have
    : > learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog).
    : > Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is
    : > rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here.
    :
    : Well, I was asking before and expressing my surprise just
    : because as most people I believed it is very aggressive
    : fish which eats any other fish in the tank...
    : In fact I have seen videos of other scorpion fish hunting
    : in the nauture and it was impressive how wide their mouths
    : open and suck the prey in an instant...
    : I have never own lionfish myself (and I am not really attracted
    : so much to such aggressive fish) so I have learned something
    : new today...
     
    Boomer, Apr 5, 2006
    #42
    1. Advertisements

  3. TW

    Boomer Guest

    Well, Psz

    I had a very long posted page ready to post, basically explaining on this issue why you
    do not know what you are talking about, with many examples. When it comes to animal
    behavior you are lost, not to mention how big that whole is you dug yourself with those
    remarks. I went to hit a key and the whole post ended up a blank page ( not the first
    time either :-( ). It took about an half hour and I'm not about to redue it, so I'm going
    got drop the subject, unless you want to continue on.


    If you read this your tune would change, not to mention some of the videos and pic on the
    clowns, some of which have been on TV

    Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones

    Richard N. Mariscal
    Department of Biological Science
    Florida Sate University


    "Why are you so dedicated to prove it is not feeding "

    No, I'm not, you are the one determined to prove that the are actually are feeing the
    anemone. I made a remark that they are really not feeding the anemone , an intentional
    act. You then went ballistic. Take note that clowns bring back objects, both inorganic and
    organic to their anemone.


    If you gave your idea in a animal behavior class, based on you observation, you would get
    at least a D if not an F. All studies and research that have been done on the subject
    disagree with you. I raised clowns for almost 30 yeas with and without anemones. And you
    are a whole WOW 2 years


    But I can not let this slide by

    "I know what I have seen

    Seeing and knowing are not the same thing.

    "I do not observe this behaviour in my tank."

    This means nothing


    "I know what I have seen. I am not looking for "intentions"


    "It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
    intended for the anemone, not for themselves."

    So there it is, you just stated it is intended, make up your mind. Your whole post and
    you are just as confusing as some clowns


    "My interpretation is that clowns feel that something is not
    right with this food and it should be removed"

    I feel out of my chair I was laughing so hard. They now know what the anemone should and
    should not eat. Then why are there pics and videos of clowns bringing back to their
    anemone things they can not eat like sticks, wood and plastic.

    THE END
    --
    Boomer

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

    Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
    http://www.coralrealm.com



    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:e0uu5p.294.1@poczta.onet.pl...
    : "Boomer" <wcwing@nospamchartermi.net> wrote in message news:IYBYf.443$_E.401@fe03.lga...
    : > You have lost it and are contradicting yourself
    :
    : LOL.
    : Maybe we just do not understand terms same way, like with the "carpet anemone"?
    :
    : > "The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host".
    : > consciously or subconsciously, they do"
    : >
    : > "The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by
    : > feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat"
    : >
    : > That is an act of intention, a deliberate act, it is feeding the anemone, in your way
    if
    : > thinkin', like a Robin is feeding its young a worm.
    :
    : To be honest, I am not sure if robin "knows" it is feeding its young
    : any more than a clownfish feeding its host anemone...
    :
    : > Please look up the words feeding and fed.
    :
    : Sure, no problem:
    : http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feeding
    :
    : feedv. fed, (fd) feed.ing, feeds
    :
    : To give food to; supply with nourishment: feed the children.
    : To provide as food or nourishment: fed fish to the cat.
    :
    : To serve as food for: The turkey is large enough to feed a dozen.
    : To produce food for: The valley feeds an entire county.
    :
    : To provide for consumption, utilization, or operation:
    : feed logs to a fire; feed data into a computer.
    : To supply with something essential for growth, maintenance, or operation:
    : Melting snow feeds the reservoirs.
    : To distribute (a local radio or television broadcast) to a larger audience
    : or group of receivers by way of a network or satellite.
    :
    : I do not see in this dictionary any special emphasise on the intentions.
    : I hope you do not believe the melting snow *intentionally* feeds the reservoirs?
    :
    : > "So I am not understanding what are you talking about."
    : >
    : > That is obvious and that you do not know what you are talking about.
    :
    : LOL.
    : I know what I am talking about. I have a pair of maroon clowns in
    : a large BTA and have observed them a lot for last couple of years.
    : I know what they are doing, when they are satisfied with what they
    : have done and when not and they want to fix what did not worked well.
    :
    : > "Yes, fish is not very inteligent,........, so in the aquarium it might asume
    something
    : > else for its home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature"
    : >
    : > Oh come on no that is nonsense
    :
    : Why ? Do you think fish can recognise anemone from a leather coral ?
    : I do not know about your fish, but mine did not study zoology :)))
    :
    : > That shows you do not know what you are talking about, buy want
    : > to argue on it. I also once believed that and the same for feeding
    : > its anemone. Observation in aquariums and in the wild have shown
    : > this to be false.
    :
    : I know what I have seen. I am not looking for "intentions",
    : I am looking at effective result of fish actions...
    :
    : > Clowns will also, at times, remove food from the anemone that it has captured and is
    : > trying eat. What are you going to claim now, that the clown is feeding the water
    column.
    :
    : I have seen it many times. Do you know when they do it ?
    : When anemone is too slow to engulf, usually too large morsel.
    : My interpretation is that clowns feel that something is not
    : right with this food and it should be removed...
    : Also, they "defend" their home from floating item like
    : macroalgae branch pushing it away from the anemone...
    :
    : > Clowns also steal food captured by the anemone and eat it.
    : > Are you now going to claim the anemone captured the food to
    : > feed the clown.
    :
    : No, my clownfish always eat first :) They feed anemone only
    : larger pieces they are not able to eat themselves :)
    : Also, when anemone is not grasping food they REPEAT atempt
    : showing they are not satisfied with the results...
    : When anemone is properly attaching to the food clowns
    : are "satisfied" with the feeding attempt... They let the
    : anemone eat sitting in the nearby not interested with food.
    : It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
    : intended for the anemone, not for themselves.
    :
    : > Clowns have also been filmed in the wild luring fish into
    : > the anemone. Do think that is an intentional act of trying
    : > to feed the anemone ?
    :
    : If you are talking about a typical lounching attacks, than
    : I have seen it. The fish launches attack and retreats to
    : the anemone for selfdefense.
    :
    : > Wake up PZ. A clown is just bring back a piece of food
    : > back to its safe home where it can eat it.
    :
    : My fish eats smaller pieces on the spot, where it finds it.
    : It brings back to the anemone ONLY larger pieces which
    : it cannot fit properly in its own mouth.
    :
    : > It tests with a hosted anemone, the fish will bring back the food to
    : > the anemone, often where it does not get a chance to eat it. In the same test, where
    the
    : > anemone was then removed, the clown, after searching the tank for its anemone and
    could
    : > not find it, brought the food back to its prior home, a lift tube, where it ate the
    food.
    :
    : I do not observe this behaviour in my tank.
    :
    : > At time you will actually see the clown trying to eat the food it has been brought
    back.
    : > Did you know and that it has been repeatedly shown, that clowns at times will pick up
    ANY
    : > large object in the near by water column they can carrier and bring it back to their
    home,
    : > be it an anemone or rock.
    :
    : Well, I have not seen this. Must be mine are more intelligent ;-)
    : I have seen them dragging larger clump of caulerpa away from
    : anemone during feedings of tangs.
    :
    : > Clowns will also bring back food to it anemone even though the
    : > anemone shut down and can not eat .The food /object just then floats
    : > to the surface, often with the clown just bringing it back, only
    : > to float to he surface again.
    :
    : Yes, this I have observed. Clowns are very confused then...
    : They repeat multiple times the process until the food is
    : eaten by other fish.
    :
    : > It is a simple case, the clown is bringing back the food to
    : > its home, where it is safe to eat, often with the anemone
    : > eating the food. That is NOT the clown feeding the anemone.
    :
    : How to explain fish not eating food they bring to the host?
    : This is what I see in my tank. Anemone gets larger pieces,
    : the only ones fish are unable to eat.
    :
    : > Does the anemone get a meal, yes, did the clown feed it ........NO.
    :
    : Why are you so dedicated to prove it is not feeding ?
    : Let it go. We do not argue about clowns intentions
    : but the results of their actions. If you do not want
    : to call it feeding - fine... but for me it is feeding.
    :
    : > If your cat brings in a dead mouse and drops
    : > it near your dog is the cat feeding the dog.
    :
    : Never had a dog. Would dog eat the mouse in similar situation?
    : If so, I am sure you can say "cat fed the mouse to the dog".
    : Why not?
    :
    : > You need to do some research and reading,
    : > there are to many myths in this hobby. If you
    : > can find it here is a great start
    :
    : I am not really so concerned with the clownfish intentions.
    : I know that effectivelly, they PROVIDE food to the anemone.
    : I had to feed it when clowns were not around.
    : Now I do not have to do it. Clowns do it for me.
    : The result is that the anemone is fed. Why? What for?
    : I leave this for scientists...
    :
    : > Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones
    : >
    : > Richard N. Mariscal
    : > Department of Biological Science
    : > Florida Sate University
    : >
    : > One people make remarks about the clown feeding their anemone and 99 % of the time
    they
    : > think of it as " my anemone needs to eat so I'll go get him some food and feed him" ,
    like
    : > a Robin feeds it young . That is not what is taking place and has been my whole point.
    :
    : How much do you know birds? How well their brains are developed ?
    : Do they realize the youngs are their offspring which needs to be fed?
    : Or maybe they are mesmerized with their gaping mouths and they have
    : natural reflex to put "something" in there to make them shut up ?
    :
    : > The anemone is getting food from the clown but the clown is not being fed
    : > by the clown and the clown is NOT feeding the anemone and that is a difference.
    :
    : Something is wrong in this sentence...
    :
    : > Many animals bring back food to a safe place to eat and that
    : > is all that is going on here, nothing else.
    :
    : I understand you do not want to call it feeding...
    : But I do not see even small problem with calling this feeding :)
    : I judge the actions by the results, not by the intentions.
    : If the anemone is being provided food items by fish it would
    : normally not get, than the anemone IS being fed by the fish.
    : "Providing food to be eaten" is simply called feeding in my dictionary.
    :
     
    Boomer, Apr 5, 2006
    #43
  4. TW

    Pszemol Guest

    OK...

    Let's go back a little to your request to look into a dictionary
    to find a proper meaning for the word "feeding".

    I have checked my dictionary, found this definition,
    and there was nothing there I can find about intentions...
    Feeding was defined as a simple act of providing food,
    providing nourishment, which is happening in my tank.

    Could you please provide me with a definition of the "feeding"
    from the dictionary which you found elaborating on intentions ?

    Maybe your understanding of the word "feeding" is different
    than the one which can be found in an English Dictionary? :)))

    Thank you.

    p.s. I am very calm, far far away from "going balistic"
    I am not sure where are you getting this idea from :)))
     
    Pszemol, Apr 5, 2006
    #44
  5. TW

    Boomer Guest

    Psz

    You are quite aware of what is meant by the term of feeding by your own posts on this
    issues and what others mean in term feeding the anemone Go back and read them. Stop the
    spinning. You dug yourself a hole and are looking for a way out. You are trying to pull
    out all angles to make you look right and trying to rephrase yourself, to look better.
    Hole digging. You contradict your own self.


    ""It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
    intended for the anemone, not for themselves"........................................F in
    animal behavior for sure



    Conclusion the clown is intentionally feeding the anemone ..PERIOD. The clown KNOWS it is
    feeding the anemone. The clown brain is telling him "their is a piece of food and I will
    bring it back to my anemone because he is hungry, so I need to feed him.

    So they must also be feeding the anemone sticks, wood, plastic, etc. and other
    objects.... LOL

    That speaks it all and for all to see

    --
    Boomer

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

    Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
    http://www.coralrealm.com



    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:e10qi9.i8g.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    : OK...
    :
    : Let's go back a little to your request to look into a dictionary
    : to find a proper meaning for the word "feeding".
    :
    : I have checked my dictionary, found this definition,
    : and there was nothing there I can find about intentions...
    : Feeding was defined as a simple act of providing food,
    : providing nourishment, which is happening in my tank.
    :
    : Could you please provide me with a definition of the "feeding"
    : from the dictionary which you found elaborating on intentions ?
    :
    : Maybe your understanding of the word "feeding" is different
    : than the one which can be found in an English Dictionary? :)))
    :
    : Thank you.
    :
    : p.s. I am very calm, far far away from "going balistic"
    : I am not sure where are you getting this idea from :)))
     
    Boomer, Apr 5, 2006
    #45
  6. TW

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@nospamchartermi.net> wrote in message news:VnXYf.55$1H4.49@fe06.lga...
    > You are quite aware of what is meant by the term of feeding by your own posts on this
    > issues and what others mean in term feeding the anemone Go back and read them. Stop the
    > spinning. You dug yourself a hole and are looking for a way out. You are trying to pull
    > out all angles to make you look right and trying to rephrase yourself, to look better.
    > Hole digging. You contradict your own self.


    Do not try to read between the lines... please :)
    I just asked you for YOUR definition of "feeding". What is wrong about it ?
    A definition which whould NOT MATCH to clownfish behaviour I observe in my tank.

    > ""It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
    > intended for the anemone, not for themselves"........................................F in
    > animal behavior for sure


    Please relax...
    There is no contradiction here. We just simply misunderstood each other.
    Let me explain:
    I see intention, but also I know the intention is not needed to accept
    an action as feeding. Exactly as in the example from the dictionary
    I have quoted: "Melting snow feeds the reservoirs."
    Melting snow has not intended to feed the reservoirs, do you agree ? :))

    What I see in my tank LOOKS TO ME LIKE *intentional* feeding.
    I know that not everything is what it looks like, so I am ready
    to agree with you about clowns intentions are different... :)
    But...
    Feeding in the dictionary has a broader meaning and DOES NOT REQUIRE
    intention in the word definition itself. So I do not see a reason
    which could prevent calling this action feeding.

    You cannot accept even a broader term "feeding" to the action observed,
    even if I agree with you that clowns MIGHT be not aware they are,
    in fact, feeding their host...
    So, it looks to me as intentional feeding, but not knowing what is boiling
    in the little fish's brain I agree not to argue about fish intentions here.
    Putting intentions aside, it is still "feeding" in the broader meaning
    similar to unintended "feeding" of the reservoirs by the melting snow...

    At this moment you are not agruing with me, you argue with a dictionary :)

    > Conclusion the clown is intentionally feeding the anemone ..PERIOD.
    > The clown KNOWS it is feeding the anemone. The clown brain is telling
    > him "their is a piece of food and I will bring it back to my anemone
    > because he is hungry, so I need to feed him.


    This is exactly how it looks to me, but (of course) it could be false
    impression and I have already agreed with you that this *could be*
    unintentional behaviour. The fact is that the anemone is being fed,
    and the clown is doing this job of feeding (intentionally or not...),
    so I do not see the reason to not call this process "feeding" based
    on the dictionary definition I know. You are more than welcome to
    provide a better definition of this word.

    > So they must also be feeding the anemone sticks, wood, plastic, etc.
    > and other objects.... LOL
    >
    > That speaks it all and for all to see


    I admire some scientists for being so sure they know what animal
    thinks about and what its intentions are...

    Knowing how hard it is to understand each other sometimes, between
    human beings, using the same language - understanding little animals
    and being sure about their intentions based simply on observation
    of their behaviour must be very, very hard... But still some of them
    do not leave any room for doubt... Amazing!
     
    Pszemol, Apr 5, 2006
    #46
  7. Hello: I had a lion many years ago and I bought minnows at the lFS and I
    would keep them in a small 10 gal and feed him every other day. The fun was
    watching him stalk the minnow and suck him in. You ought to try it once, its
    fun. I also fed a anemone minnows once in awhile and the clown would try to
    steel it from the anemone. I don't remember what brand though.
    Bill
    "AverageSchmuck" <jschmoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:ail632hjsep804gs1jf64hqusi0c1s2c0t@4ax.com...
    > The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
    > because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
    > dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
    > keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
    > wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
    > off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
    > takes it right to his hole every single time.
     
    William Marsh, Apr 6, 2006
    #47
  8. Hi again. I forgot that the lion did hang like a bat when resting. Good
    memories.Bill
    "AverageSchmuck" <jschmoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:80k732harikgm4hdr9kef6i689g0jvs7sh@4ax.com...
    > To be perfectly honest Lionfish are extremely predictable fish. They
    > hide absolutely nothing about their "Fight or Flight Response" 99% of
    > the time they will flight. Only time I have ever seen the lionfish
    > aggresive towards fish is when they swim on top of him while he is in
    > a resting state in corner of tank, hanging from tail like a bat and
    > that is pretty much he swims in a circular motion and they leave. As
    > soon as he feels secure again he returns to his bat in the belfry
    > position. Besides that their were only 2 other occasions where he was
    > aggressive and both well was me. 1. I had to get him some sort of
    > nutrients when he dislocated his jaw on top of increasing nutrients in
    > water from additives that contain iodine I would inject pureed fish
    > parts into is mouth with a turkey baster. Well he hates that baster
    > and yes tries to spine it. I think its funny but it was for his own
    > good. 2. I over thought the addition of a goby to tank. I was hoping
    > that the goby was fast enough to out swim him. Well gobies are fast
    > but not fast enough. I knew better but second guessed myself.
    >
    > Now the Yellow tang, Clown and Limbahi Cromus. Those 3 fish are much
    > more aggressive than the lion by far. The Cromus is just insane he
    > will taunt any fish in tank. Now the Maroon clown and yellow tang both
    > have defensive/attack abilities. Clown with cheek spikes and yellow
    > tang with tail bones that are venomous. All 3 of those fish are by far
    > more aggressive and more territoral than the lion fish. Keep in mind
    > all the fish in tank are adult fish. The lion is about 7 - 8 inches in
    > length. Clown probably about 3-4 inches. tang easily 4-5 inches and
    > cromus slighly smaller than clown. I also have a very healthy clean
    > crew with hermits snails and stars and no problems at all.
    >
    > Say whatever you like about that combo of fish I was just stating my
    > observations of their behaviors and interaction with one another.
    >
    > But back to the converstion. Yes I have observed the exact behavior
    > that Rock described in his posts with my Maroon clown. He guards that
    > hole in rock formation and cleans it very well mind you. I used to
    > bury it everytime he carved it out cause it takes my Sand bed below
    > 1inch in that spot with him carving it out but he quickly fixs my work
    > on that one so I just let him have the spot and I am gonna add more
    > sand bed to an improved sump as I can afford it. He does bring food to
    > his hole all the time. I know if I drop a shrimp part or he steals it
    > wait about 10 min come back to remove cause he will find it and hide
    > it in that hole every single time. Gosh I hope he is not feeding my
    > tonga rock their.
     
    William Marsh, Apr 6, 2006
    #48
  9. Although I was very watchful while I was cleaning the tank, I always knew
    where he was. I did not want to run into one of the dorsal fin spikes and
    find out how venemouse thay are. Bill
    "Boomer" <wcwing@nospamchartermi.net> wrote in message
    news:eek:UUYf.281$Lt.98@fe04.lga...
    > PZ the are not aggressive ( in regards to feeding on tanks mates, which is
    > really not
    > aggression) in captivity most of the time. Most that have lions will tell
    > you they are not
    > aggressive at all but quite peaceful. That does not mean always. . Lions
    > are very
    > peaceful, useless some fish or shrimp pisses it off. The pretty much just
    > sit and mind
    > their own business. Many people have put lions in tanks only to loose
    > tanks mates as a
    > food item. If you make the lion happy it pretty much leaves all other fish
    > and inverts
    > alone. Please lets not get started on words again but a lion eating fish
    > and shrimp, is
    > not aggression or aggressive behavior, it is just eating, feeding its
    > self :). Matter
    > of fact one needs to be careful with some fish, which are aggressive and
    > pick on lions,
    > usually the tail and large side fins, often with the lion still showing
    > no signs of
    > aggression.
    >
    > --
    > Boomer
    >
    > If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up
    >
    > Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    > Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS
    >
    > Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    > http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php
    >
    > Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
    > http://www.coralrealm.com
    >
    >
    >
    > "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    > news:e10ipj.ha4.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    > : "AverageSchmuck" <jschmoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:ik38325puprp66rt6bllqssgu346bsnqk7@4ax.com...
    > : > My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
    > : > Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have
    > : > learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog).
    > : > Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is
    > : > rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here.
    > :
    > : Well, I was asking before and expressing my surprise just
    > : because as most people I believed it is very aggressive
    > : fish which eats any other fish in the tank...
    > : In fact I have seen videos of other scorpion fish hunting
    > : in the nauture and it was impressive how wide their mouths
    > : open and suck the prey in an instant...
    > : I have never own lionfish myself (and I am not really attracted
    > : so much to such aggressive fish) so I have learned something
    > : new today...
    >
    >
     
    William Marsh, Apr 6, 2006
    #49
  10. TW

    Boomer Guest

    There is no sense in replying ay more period

    --
    Boomer

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

    Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
    http://www.coralrealm.com



    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:e11059.poc.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    : "Boomer" <wcwing@nospamchartermi.net> wrote in message news:VnXYf.55$1H4.49@fe06.lga...
    : > You are quite aware of what is meant by the term of feeding by your own posts on this
    : > issues and what others mean in term feeding the anemone Go back and read them. Stop
    the
    : > spinning. You dug yourself a hole and are looking for a way out. You are trying to
    pull
    : > out all angles to make you look right and trying to rephrase yourself, to look better.
    : > Hole digging. You contradict your own self.
    :
    : Do not try to read between the lines... please :)
    : I just asked you for YOUR definition of "feeding". What is wrong about it ?
    : A definition which whould NOT MATCH to clownfish behaviour I observe in my tank.
    :
    : > ""It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was
    : > intended for the anemone, not for themselves"........................................F
    in
    : > animal behavior for sure
    :
    : Please relax...
    : There is no contradiction here. We just simply misunderstood each other.
    : Let me explain:
    : I see intention, but also I know the intention is not needed to accept
    : an action as feeding. Exactly as in the example from the dictionary
    : I have quoted: "Melting snow feeds the reservoirs."
    : Melting snow has not intended to feed the reservoirs, do you agree ? :))
    :
    : What I see in my tank LOOKS TO ME LIKE *intentional* feeding.
    : I know that not everything is what it looks like, so I am ready
    : to agree with you about clowns intentions are different... :)
    : But...
    : Feeding in the dictionary has a broader meaning and DOES NOT REQUIRE
    : intention in the word definition itself. So I do not see a reason
    : which could prevent calling this action feeding.
    :
    : You cannot accept even a broader term "feeding" to the action observed,
    : even if I agree with you that clowns MIGHT be not aware they are,
    : in fact, feeding their host...
    : So, it looks to me as intentional feeding, but not knowing what is boiling
    : in the little fish's brain I agree not to argue about fish intentions here.
    : Putting intentions aside, it is still "feeding" in the broader meaning
    : similar to unintended "feeding" of the reservoirs by the melting snow...
    :
    : At this moment you are not agruing with me, you argue with a dictionary :)
    :
    : > Conclusion the clown is intentionally feeding the anemone ..PERIOD.
    : > The clown KNOWS it is feeding the anemone. The clown brain is telling
    : > him "their is a piece of food and I will bring it back to my anemone
    : > because he is hungry, so I need to feed him.
    :
    : This is exactly how it looks to me, but (of course) it could be false
    : impression and I have already agreed with you that this *could be*
    : unintentional behaviour. The fact is that the anemone is being fed,
    : and the clown is doing this job of feeding (intentionally or not...),
    : so I do not see the reason to not call this process "feeding" based
    : on the dictionary definition I know. You are more than welcome to
    : provide a better definition of this word.
    :
    : > So they must also be feeding the anemone sticks, wood, plastic, etc.
    : > and other objects.... LOL
    : >
    : > That speaks it all and for all to see
    :
    : I admire some scientists for being so sure they know what animal
    : thinks about and what its intentions are...
    :
    : Knowing how hard it is to understand each other sometimes, between
    : human beings, using the same language - understanding little animals
    : and being sure about their intentions based simply on observation
    : of their behaviour must be very, very hard... But still some of them
    : do not leave any room for doubt... Amazing!
     
    Boomer, Apr 6, 2006
    #50
  11. TW

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@nospamchartermi.net> wrote in message news:GbYYf.312$Lt.307@fe04.lga...
    > There is no sense in replying ay more period


    I am sorry to hear that you think this way...

    If you ever change your mind -> I am still interested
    in knowing what is your definition of the word "feeding".
     
    Pszemol, Apr 6, 2006
    #51
  12. TW

    Boomer Guest

    I see you are still digging holes for yourself.. I figured you would post about exactly
    what you just did. You are talking or want to keep talking in circles. You think maybe you
    have won on at least on point , as you have been blown away on all others. It is your last
    chance ditch effort to make yourself look good and is the only reason behind this last
    post. You are thinkin maybe I have not lost my credibility YET on this issue.


    You already know my definition of the word feeding in clowns . I guess you are still
    confused

    Feeding is the process by which organisms, typically animals, obtain food. In behavior the
    anemone is feeding off the food the fish brought it but the fish is not feeding the
    anemone, a behavioral active intentional act in animal behavior field....WHICH IS WHAT YOU
    CLAIM and all evidence disagrees with you. Every one that is reading this thread knows
    what I mean and what you meant, to include youself. You made the claim on what your clown
    is doing, not me and now you are trying to defend it to make it you look better. You are
    trying to find ways to dig yourself out of the hole. " um, maybe if I keep on the
    'feeding" definition thing I'll gain some lost ground" Give it Up

    Go head and dig some more post holes, I really do not care


    Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones

    Richard N. Mariscal
    Department of Biological Science
    Florida Sate University

    and there are allot more of these.YOU ARE WRONG........period

    Others can decide for themselves who know what they are talking about.


    Boomer

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

    Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
    http://www.coralrealm.com



    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message news:e1144s.m4.1@poczta.onet.pl...
    : "Boomer" <wcwing@nospamchartermi.net> wrote in message news:GbYYf.312$Lt.307@fe04.lga...
    : > There is no sense in replying ay more period
    :
    : I am sorry to hear that you think this way...
    :
    : If you ever change your mind -> I am still interested
    : in knowing what is your definition of the word "feeding".
     
    Boomer, Apr 6, 2006
    #52
  13. TW

    Boomer Guest

    I did 20 years ago and spent 3 day in the hospital. I got hit with two dorsal spines.

    --
    Boomer

    If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

    Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
    Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

    Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
    http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

    Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
    http://www.coralrealm.com


    :
    :
     
    Boomer, Apr 6, 2006
    #53
  14. TW

    Pszemol Guest

    "Boomer" <wcwing@nospamchartermi.net> wrote in message news:u_ZYf.74$1H4.31@fe06.lga...
    > I see you are still digging holes for yourself.. I figured you would post about exactly
    > what you just did. You are talking or want to keep talking in circles. You think maybe you
    > have won on at least on point , as you have been blown away on all others. It is your last
    > chance ditch effort to make yourself look good and is the only reason behind this last
    > post. You are thinkin maybe I have not lost my credibility YET on this issue.


    Your attempt of interpretation of what I am doing is amazing...
    I have really no idea what are you getting these impressions.
    Are you projecting what you would do in similar situation or what?
    I cannot recognise you, Boomer, recently... you have changed :-(

    > You already know my definition of the word feeding in clowns . I guess you are still
    > confused
    >
    > Feeding is the process by which organisms, typically animals, obtain food. In behavior
    > the anemone is feeding off the food the fish brought it but the fish is not feeding the
    > anemone, a behavioral active intentional act in animal behavior field....WHICH IS
    > WHAT YOU CLAIM and all evidence disagrees with you.


    You have referred me to the dictionary to check my definition of "feeding"...
    I have checked mine and found I understand this word as in dictionary.

    What dictionary are you taking your definition from ? Can you quote the source ?
    How "intentions" can be detected in animals lacking their brain, for example: medusa ?
    What are "intentions" of meduza, which has no brain, and - does not think ?
    Is it still feeding, if there are no intentions? :))

    > Every one that is reading this thread knows what I mean
    > and what you meant, to include youself.


    Well, I would not be so sure about this...
    Have you conducted any survey ? :)

    > You made the claim on what your clown is doing, not me and now you
    > are trying to defend it to make it you look better.


    I do not care to "look better". I do not have phd in animal behaviorism,
    I do not have any title to defend in front of my students :))
    I can afford to be wrong in my observations - I am just a hobbyist
    observing a single pair of maroon clowns in a single tank...
    I have shared my observations and my interpretations of these.
    I said many times, that I can agree with scientists about the lack
    of intentions in the clowns behaviour, even if this is clear only
    from looking at my pair. My pair is probably not representative, so
    I can undestood it does not involve intentions - ok.

    What I have problem with is associations of "feeding" with intentions.
    My dicionary supports my understanding of word "feeding".
    You have some problems quoting any dictionary supporting your version...
    What is wrong in this picture ? :)

    > You are trying to find ways to dig yourself out of the hole.
    > " um, maybe if I keep on the 'feeding" definition thing I'll
    > gain some lost ground" Give it Up


    The problem is I am not in any hole...
    I do not need to dig myself - I am perfectly fine with being wrong.
    I just ask you to show me in some reputable source your definition
    of word "feeding" :) Do I ask for too much ? :)

    > Go head and dig some more post holes, I really do not care


    Yes you do...
     
    Pszemol, Apr 6, 2006
    #54
  15. TW

    Wayne Sallee Guest

    But then one has to ask the question " Is this instinct
    for feeding the anemone even though it's not there?" The
    question has to be asked, which is the normal, and which
    is the resulting outcome in the abnormal?

    Wayne Sallee
    Wayne's Pets
    Wayne@WaynesPets.com


    AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/5/2006 1:30 AM:
    > The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
    > because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
    > dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
    > keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
    > wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
    > off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
    > takes it right to his hole every single time.
     
    Wayne Sallee, Apr 6, 2006
    #55
  16. TW

    Wayne Sallee Guest

    CBS are a a lot easier to keep with a lion than the
    regular skunk cleaners, as the cbs are a lot more
    agressive, and more able to defend themselves.

    Wayne Sallee
    Wayne's Pets
    Wayne@WaynesPets.com


    Boomer wrote on 4/5/2006 3:04 PM:
    > Meaning you can keep all these with lions, if you know what you are doing. I kept a 12 "
    > Volitans for 12 years in a 55 gal , with smaller fish and always with a pair of mated
    > RBCS.
    >
     
    Wayne Sallee, Apr 6, 2006
    #56
  17. TW

    Wayne Sallee Guest

    And yes I have known about this idea that "anemone fish
    are not intentionally feeding their anemone" for many
    years :)

    But I still think that there is more design and purpose
    than many people see.

    And I agree that the definition of "feeding" does not have
    to include "intention".

    Wayne Sallee
    Wayne's Pets
    Wayne@WaynesPets.com


    Wayne Sallee wrote on 4/6/2006 11:00 AM:
    > But then one has to ask the question " Is this instinct for feeding the
    > anemone even though it's not there?" The question has to be asked, which
    > is the normal, and which is the resulting outcome in the abnormal?
    >
    > Wayne Sallee
    > Wayne's Pets
    > Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >
    >
    > AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/5/2006 1:30 AM:
    >> The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
    >> because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
    >> dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
    >> keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
    >> wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
    >> off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
    >> takes it right to his hole every single time.
     
    Wayne Sallee, Apr 6, 2006
    #57
  18. TW

    Pszemol Guest

    "Wayne Sallee" <Wayne@WayneSallee.com> wrote in message news:44353776.6080705@WayneSallee.com...
    > And yes I have known about this idea that "anemone fish
    > are not intentionally feeding their anemone" for many
    > years :)
    >
    > But I still think that there is more design and purpose
    > than many people see.
    >
    > And I agree that the definition of "feeding" does not have
    > to include "intention".


    Exactly.
    Instinct does not have to mean "premeditated intentions".
     
    Pszemol, Apr 6, 2006
    #58
  19. I am unsure what both of you are arguing about but my observation.

    I watch my clown take food and place it in his hole that he carved in
    the sand near the live rock. He sleeps their, rests their, guards it,
    and yes without the anenome takes food their. Same exact behavior
    that he would do if their was an anenome present. What I am seeing is
    same thing mammals do when they indentify a resource and want it for
    themselves. Dogs are very good at showing this! Its called "Resource
    Guarding" and it is not always food. It can be anything they see as a
    possible resource for enjoyment, food, anything. Now this resource
    gaurding happens to be an advantage for the anenome even though it
    does not appear the clown is comprehending fully what he is doing. The
    clown simply is seeing hey bingo resource quick hide it before I have
    to waste energy fighting for it and then their is the anenome (The
    clowns "Safe Spot") benefitting from this. A symbiotic relationship
    does not always mean they intend on helping each nor does it mean each
    depends on other for survival. Each organism their can very
    effectively survive on its own without other. So in conclusion your
    both correct and both wrong! After all to feed doesnt always mean
    intention but does matter what definition you wish to define the act
    of feeding by because after look up on it seems it is implied to have
    intention on some and others completely unneccesary.

    However I do belive in my opinion that calling the behavior of the
    clown taking food to his safe spot feeding is a tad mislabeled but
    still correct only if safe spot is a living organism that will eat the
    food or item he/she is taking their because his intention appears to
    be "Resource Guarding". I see same behavior in my tank but clown is
    taking food and items to a rock. Now the rock has no use for the food
    so you cant say he is feeding his safe spot. So proper terminolgy for
    the act your both talking about would be better labeled "Resource
    Guarding" with a side effect of feeding in certain circumstances.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feed

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=symbiotic
     
    AverageSchmuck, Apr 6, 2006
    #59
  20. My intention is not to argue fight insult... none of that you guys are
    simply talking about something I really get into. Something I have
    done since I was a small child watch wildlife and track their behavior
    ... What I do and I think I do well in a job that involves that but
    money you need money to be formally trained.
     
    AverageSchmuck, Apr 6, 2006
    #60
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.