sump pump question

[sicklids]

alright, getting ready to set up the 120 gallon tank. im making my 40 gallon breeder into the sump. so my question is, how much water do i want to move per hour? i heard 10x's the gallonage of the tank (not sure gallonage is a word). if so i will need an overflow box that moves 1200 gallons per hour right?

secondly, the return pump, should it also move 1200 gallons phr as well?

 

[cgoodman381]

The amount of water you move in your display will depend on what corals you want to keep. 20-30 for lps and softies and more for sps.

For you return, I have heard arguments that slower flow is better, but I don't really see it. Most people opt for 6-10X their tank size for return. So yes... your overflow box will need to return about the same amount as your return pump. Otherwise you will need a ball valve to turn the flow down. You can use a calculator over at reef central to see what size bulkheads you need for what flow.

 

[sicklids]

i dont have any coral, FOWLR tank, predator tank, sump will be used as refugium for snails and crabs and such. food for the predators!!!

 

[cgoodman381]

Well I would still aim for at least 20x flow. Some people may say less, but basically the more flow you have the longer detruis will be suspended. The longer its suspended the better, as it will get down to your sump and skimmed/filtered through a sock.

 

[sicklids]

gotcha, so about 2400 gph then?

 

[yote]

Thats about what I'd shoot for.

 

[Bifferwine]

You will need to get a pump that is rated for more than your overflow. The water will have to travel some distance against gravity from the pump to your tank, and that reduces its efficiency.

A 1200 gph pump is rated at 1200 gph as it immediately exits the pump. That's significantly smaller when you take into account the several feet upwards the water has to travel before reaching the tank.

 

[Rcpilot]

Why not go for just 10x into the sump? And use powerheads or a closed loop for circulation and water flow.

I'm a believer that water flowing into a sump (what you're talking about is not really a sump--it's a refugium because you're using it to grow food and fauna) shouldn't be the same speed as you want in your tank. Crank 2400GPH through your 40g sump....... Can you say tidlewave? How about garbage disposal? Whats that? --- carry the two.... add the zeros.......divide by 4....... that's 60x through your sump full of crabs, snails, other inverts and the skimmer. There's no dwell time in that sump/refugium. Your snails could reproduce in your refugium. That would feed the tank. Maybe thats your plan all along? It ain't gonna happen at 60x. Eggs will be washed away. I'll bet you wouldn't have many pods in a refugium like that. It's too fast.

I'd shoot more for about 400-600gph through the sump and do whatever you need to do in the tank for circulation with the powerheads.........or drill about 15 holes in the back of it and slap a Dart on it :mrgreen:

If I ever get my 90g set up, I'll be drilling so many holes in the back of this sucker, people will think it's Swiss cheese. I don't like the look of big J-tubes or massive overflows on tanks. It works, and ya do what ya can. But I am determined to save up the cash to drill all those holes and buying the pump/plumbing setup. It's so much cleaner inside the tank. Use a 2" deep x 3" wide overflow across the whole back of the tank and couple 1" pipes to run down into the sump. The return pump can then be smaller. Smaller = cheaper and less heat into your tank. Unless you plan to plumb the return pump outside the refugium? That's what I'd like to do. Pumps wear out and big reef tanks aren't something you jump into for a year or two and then quit. Usually by the time you jump into the 100g club, your SERIOUS and will probably stay in the hobby for many years. You could be changing pumps at some point. I want it easy to access. Put a valve outside the tank and plumb in a union and the external return pump. When it goes out, it takes an hour to fix it. Maybe less.

I hope that I don't sound like a jerk. Just thinking out loud.

 

[sicklids]

Rcpilot, you are not a jerk by no means, i need people like you to answer questions like mine cuz i honestly dont know about all this stuff. you are right, all that water through the sump/refugium would be a tidal wave and i didnt even think of that at all! so i should run about 600 gph you say through the sump and then use powerheads to move the water in the tank? sounds like a better plan cause then i wont have to spend all that money on a big bad pump to push it back up to the display tank.

yes i want to use the refugium to grow snails and pods so that my puffer can have gourmet on occasion, and just in case i have an algae break out, can put rocks in the refugium so the snails and such can do the cleaning. that is my plan. thanks guys!

 

[RyanG]

Yep go with two 1.5" overflows(if you drill it) or the equivalent overflow box(1200 gph) go with a 1200 gph non pressure rated pump and it will equal out to similar flow. Make up the FLOW(gallonage haha) with either powerheads or a closed loop.

 

[Melonbob]

I have been researching this for a bit, and you can't get two people to agree completely on the subject. What I ended up doing was going with 1800GPH for my 180, which in theory is 10x, but then take away the head loss, and I'll likely be closer to 1300gph. I figured this was fast enough to move some serious water, but still slow enough to allow the water to be skimmed and spend some time in the fuge. The balance of flow I will be doing with powerheads, cause frankly, over the top closed loops are fugly.

 

[sicklids]

okay, now what is a closed loop? i have read peoples post on these and have no idea what they are

 

[RyanG]

Its a system where you drill a larger hole for a pump intake plumb it to a pump and return the water from to several smaller smaller holes also drilled into the display. Its a way to get good circulation without using powerheads. Keeps the system clean looking.

 

[Melonbob]

So long as you are ready to drill a bunch of holes in your tank.....otherwise, you can do the same thing with a loop of pipe over top of your tank.....IMHO waaaay fuglier than a couple of powerheads

 

[Rcpilot]

Closed Loop:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_loop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reef_aquarium

"To create turnover many reef aquarists use an Overflow (internal or external) which drains water into a sump where it is then pumped back into the tank. Tanks that come equipped with an internal overflow and pre-drilled holes are known in the hobby as "Reef Ready" or simply "Drilled" tanks. Of the many methods of creating the required flow, one of the most popular is by using multiple powerheads[citation needed] which are simply small submersible water pumps. The pumps may be randomly switched on and off using a wave timer, with each aimed at the flow of another powerhead or at the aquarium glass to create flow in the tank. Another method gaining popularity is the closed loop in which water is pulled from the main tank into a pump which returns the water back into the aquarium via one or more returns to create water turbulence. Only recently available commercially, submersible propeller pumps are gaining popularity due to being able to generate large volume of water flow (turbulent flow) without the intense directed force (laminar flow) of a power head. Propeller pumps are more energy-efficient than powerheads, but require a higher initial investment."

 

[Rcpilot]

Closed loops done with drilled holes are the ultimate in look IMO. I HATE the powerheads in my tank. Now those are fugly.

The basic design is to buy a big pump that will do the turnover you want in pure circulation. In a 120g tank, I'd be shooting for 2000GPH as a minimum. I'd REALLY want closer to 3000GPH.

You use a big bulkhead, like 2" or 2.5". You drill the bulkheads UNDER the water level. Like in the middle of the tank. Whatever the size is on the pump intake--do the outlets on the tank AT LEAST that big and even bigger is fine. I've seen people drill 2 holes 2" each and pipe them into a pump. Don't restrict your intake.

Then you build a manifold on the outlet of the pump and drill 6 or 8 or 10 holes in the back of the tank and plumb each line off the manifold with a bulkhead. Line-Locs are flexible tubes that you can connect inside the tank to direct flow in various area or configurations.

There's no head loss because all the intake and outlets are under the water. The pump is just in the middle of the loop. Closed loop.

Search Reef Central in the equipment forums. People have done some COOL stuff with reef controllers and solenoid valves. :mrgreen:

I think the only thing better than a closed loop would have to be a closed loop with a surge tank.:shock: