Sump pump question

[Massey]

OK I finally got my fuge going. I didnt have any room to put the skimmer on the outside of the fuge so it went in sump style. This takes up all my room for microalgae but I can live with that. Now here is what I need to know. Can I hurt my pump if I restrict the water flow too much? The pump is a Mag Drive Model 5 (500GPH). I am pumping water about 3 feet up through 4 feet of 5/8 hose. I have a valve inline with the output and it is about 1/2 closed. Will this cause me to burn up my pump or is this OK.

Also my overflow is supposed to be rated at 500 Gph but I dont think I am getting that. when my pump is in full open it will train the sump area it sits in fast and the overflow does not seem to take up the extra water I just pump till I start sucking in air.

Right now I have the Fuge set were I am getting equal in and out.

Massey

 

[Bifferwine]

You don't want to put back pressure on your pump. What I did with my sump was have a T coming from the pump, both ends with ball valves. One goes back to the tank, the other back to the sump, so that you can adjust flow by redirecting water back into the sump instead of blocking flow.

 

[Massey]

I had thought of doing that as a anti overflow but figured it would not work but as a flow control I could see how that would be perfect. Looks like I am heading back to the local Lowes for some more parts.

I did drill holes in the outlet for a syphon stop and tested it and it stops before overflowing the 10 gallon. I dont know if the inlet stops in time I did not test it that part was too much of a pain to get started I didnt want to try that again.

Thanks for the assistance Bifferwine you have been a great help with my tank. All my fish are doing fine the 2 clowns I started with are still happy and healthy, I have added a Lawnmower Blemmy and a cleaner shrimp so far. Looking to get a couple of cardnals (not sure of the breed but they have 2 dorsal fins and have white spots that kinda look like Ich on them) I just need some more $$$ first.

Massey

 

[jhnrb]

Well I have a bit of a diff opinion on the pump. I have selected the mag series for several of my feeds based on the ability to restrict the flow. It is never ideal to restrict flow from a pump but I doubt it would be of any consequence for the mag as it is rated for a head pressure. I have a mag 2 and a mag 7 that i will be restricting flow on.

 

[Massey]

OK here is my update today. I found a way to increase the flow into my sump, so I could open the valve for my pump more. I put an air line inside the U pipe and sucked out some of the air. This has helped matters alot I dont hear my pump stressing now, but my new sump has caused an increase in water temp. I put a small fan inside my cabinet and within an hour my temp has decreased by about 2 degrees in the sump and about 1 degree in the tank.

I ordered a float switch and I am going to be making an overflow protection device so I dont have to worry about my sump getting too full from my pump being too slow. I found out yesterday that it is really easy to have the input and output off ballance enough to make the pump dry or overflow the sump.

Massey

 

[VAreef]

You shouldn't need to worry about the pump being to slow that the sump overflows. The overflow box will only siphon so much from the tank. If you turn off the pump and the sump doesn't overflow you are fine there. If your sump is overflowing then you may have your overflow mounted to low on the aquarium. If you turn off your pump your sump should be able to hold any overflow left and water from the return pump line. The other part to worry about is if you lose your siphon. You should not have any air at all in your siphon tube on your overflow. If you were to lose your siphon it would no longer remove water from the tank as your pump keeps pumping until the sump is dry and the main tank is overflowing. I just got a float switch today that I will be wiring in to shut off my return pump if my aquarium water level gets too high. Later I am going to wire in a wet switch and 2 solenoid valves to completely isolate the sump from the aquarium should anything go wrong.

Also I have worked with pumps for many years. A centrifugal pump like the mag series is designed to allow throttling the discharge. If you were to run at shut off head (no actual flow) then yes if could overheat as the pump is lubricated and cooled by the water it is pumping. To throttle the outlet on them is completely fine as long as you do not go completely shut or almost completely shut for extended periods. Also always throttle the pumps discharge and never the suction. The way Biff has hers set up is also a great way to control flow as well. She can most likely fine tune her flow much better than just throttling the discharge. Bypass lines such as hers are typically used for throttling the flow of a positive displacement pump or a heat balanced system. Using something like that might keep your pump from raising the temp as much.

It took me a few days to get my sumps flows tweaked just right but ever since I haven't had to adjust it at all. Hope this helps some and good luck.

 

[Massey]

OK been out and about reading up on some sump systems and there is one thing that I notice that happens with other sumps and not mine or maybe I am just reading it wrong. In a nutshell here is what I have been reading:

Your tank will maintain a constant water level because, as the water level rises from the sump into the tank the overflow will dump the same amount of water back into the sump.

Well my overflow uses a J tube and works on the principals of syphoning, If I dont supply enough water into the trap the syphon stops and the tank will then spill over from the water being pumped back into the tank not being drained out. This is really hard to ballance the intake and output of my sump so I am thinking that I have something not totally right here. Any ideas or is that just the nature of this type of beast? Also I have the longer end of the J tube inside the drain section of my OF not in the trap part.

Here are some pics of my tank, fish and sump, If I did this all right at least

Massey

 

[VAreef]

I'm curious as to the design of your overflow box. Most overflows have 2 "chambers". The siphon tube siphons into one chamber that then drains to a second one that actually drains to the sump. This design will maintain a siphon even if the pump is off because the water level stays in the first chamber. If you have a straight siphon tube with no box or a single chamber going to the sump it will lose the siphon whenever water level in the aquarium gets below the siphon tubes suction. Also if there is any air at all in your siphon tube this will cause it to lose a suction quite easily on the tank should it not be getting sufficent flow for any reason.

Please post a picture of your overflow and siphon set-up as I believe that is where your problem is at. If you turn off your pump your system should be able to maintain the siphon tube full of water or else your looking at big overflow trouble if your power goes out and comes back on while your not at home.

Brian

 

[jhnrb]

You need an overflow box. CPR, for other and one that self primes. If you are using one of those surface skimmers connected to the overflow that will not work. Maybe for a canister, but for your sump you need an overflow box with the capabilities of your return pump. return water is by gravity flow and not by tube siphon. keep us posted.

 

[Massey]

I do have an overflow box. There is a black box inside the tank that I take is called the Trap. Then a clear box on the outside of the tank that has the hose that goes to the sump attached to it. This box outside does have 2 chambers in it divided by a wall that goes about 1/2 way up. syphon tube in one side and the drain tube to the sump on the other. I see this setup at my LFS and they dont seem to have any trouble with theirs. Mine will usually pull the water out of the trap so fast the water cant get into the trap fast enough and when it is really low in the tank so the water will refill it fast enough my pump has a hard time keeping up (using a Mag 5 about 4' below the tank). Now if I lose power then the trap will be emptied and the syphon will stop. now add power and the pump will turn on and over fill the main tank and well there you have trouble.

I will post a pic tomorrow of the overflow box.

My skimmer is not attached to the overflow it is down on the sump check the pictures above.

Massey

 

[jermpool]

Here is a pic of my 1200 gph overflow. The water comes threw the tubes into the center section and then goes over the sides. When the return pump stops the syphon will break but the center section remains full and the tubes also hold the water so when the pump restarts and the box on the inside fills back up the syphon automaticaly restarts. I know the first time I helped set up an overflow we had the tubes on the outside of the center box and the whole process didn't work properly. I hope this helps you out a little.

 

[Massey]

yea that is the same basic setup that I have too only I dont have the 2 downpipes, only 1. Yea my syphon breaks and will kinda restart again but there is alot less flow and that is what causes the main tank to over flow when the pump shuts down.

My redesign of my sump should limit the amount of water that can over flow the main tank if eliminate it all together. I dont have the pump in as deep of water as I did before.

Massey

 

[reeffreak]

Massey,I had problem with my overflow also.If air gets trap inside the overflow tube the flow to the sump would slow down.If to much air got inside it would stop completely.I hooked a aqua lifter pump to the overflow.It has one in(airline tubing that goes inside the overflow tube drawing the air out) and one out(dumps the water to the backside of the overflow box).

This thing saved me alot of headaches,especially during water changes when you have to turn the equipment off.No more having to restart the siphon.

Here is a link((I'm using it on a different overflow box then the one listed))
so it should work with any box as long as it has a back chamber.
Continuous Siphon Overflow

You would only need the air lifter pump and air line tubing...
Hope this helps

 

[Massey]

Thanks Reef that is exactly what I need. I was thinking of a way of doing this myself but some one as usualy beat me to the idea ;) . I just finished starting up my new sump/refuguim and this one works alot better than the old one. Funny it is in the same 10G fish tank just a different and better placment of the dividers. I will try to get some pics to post later today. When the system shuts down I do not over fill the sump :) (the old one did) but I do not restart the syphon when things power back up. I was thinking about getting a power relay to keep the sump pump from starting back up when power returns that way I can control that when I get up/home/whatever, but the auto syphon starter seems to be the better idea. If my sump does not power up I still have filtration and circulation to the tank via my canister filter and my power heads. Heating is in the main tank as well so no worries there either. After a few days of running I am going to get some live rock and place it in the refugium section and let that settle in before adding some micro algae. Any advise on starting the refugium, or am I reading the steps right?

Massey

 

[Massey]

OK pics as promised. I got what I think are the best angles of my sump, overflow, whole tank and even a few of my fish. Lemme know what you all think.

Massey

 

[jhnrb]

Nice setup keep us posted. Pics anytime you like

 

[reeffreak]

Looks great Massey,
Did you ever find a solution for your overflow and pump startup problems?

 

[VAreef]

Nice setup Massey. I see a lot of familiar stuff there. I have the same overflow box you do I think. I like your sump set up a lot. Is that an air bubble in your syphon tube? If it is that will break your syphon very easily. You can get it out by snaking a piece of airline tubing up there and basically sucking it out. If there is any air at all in that thing it will give you tons of trouble. Everything looks great though. When are you thinking about adding some corals?

 

[Massey]

Thanks guys for the compliments :) What looks like an air bubble is just the lighting reflection. There is no bubbles in there other than the occasional one that gets sucked in from the trap. I could not find an affordable shutoff device so I went with the pump from Foster and Smith it should be here this week. I just had my first casualty to my tank and I have no clue what happened to my Turbo snail. A few days ago I noticed a "chunk" missing from its foot but it was still moving around and eating and now it is at the bottom of the tank with my shrimp going crazy on it and will not leave it alone. It looks kinda black and shriveled up in its shell too. I am going to take it out here after I finish this post. All tank parameters are normal, and my other snail is doing just fine.

VAreef I was not planning on putting corals in this tank, I dont have the $$$ for the halide lighting so this will be fishys and an anenome. I am planning and saving for a 75 gal that I will be putting a reef in with the corals and all the good stuff like that.

Massey

 

[Bifferwine]

Anemones need just as much light, if not more, than most corals. Don't buy an anemone unless you are certain you can provide enough lighting for it.