Wanting not to make a mistake.... again!

[theplummer]

Hello, I just found this forum and thought, WOW, maybe I can get help from wasting time, money, and Killing fish.

I used to keep saltwater fish back in the 90's, where I had cut a hole in my staircase well, and mounted a 55gal 2x4 in the wall and framed around it with door casing. When I moved, I broke the aquarium down and never put it back up again.

Along comes a wife, children and WORK. Now my daughters are 9, 11, and 17. They are showing some interest in the hobby and I am in the process of resurecting the old 55 for them to enjoy.

I never had a stand for the aquarium, as it was custom installed in the wall, but I found that my oldest daughters, white dresser (yuck), will hold the aquarium, at least in theory, I haven't added water to it yet, let's hope it can handle the weight. Let's see 55gallons X 7lbs per gallon = 385 plus aquarium weight 50lbs....... Uh, Oh!!! I think I might just be in trouble!

If this dresser stands up to the weight test, I'd like to use as much of my old equipment as possible, just to save money at the start. With the mind toward moving to more modern equipment, purely for LESS MAINTENANCE purposes, as I remember, these things can work you to death, if you don't have a good plan.

I'd love to hear as much input as possible from as many as possible, to get me back up to speed on the care and feeding of a reef system. Although, I am going to be VERY patient about adding live stock, and going to go sloooow, no matter how impatient the girls get.

with regards to a biological filter, I have a locally made acrylic gravity fed filter that has a heater box, a pre-filter/charcoal box, a protien skimmer, and a wet dry media box. I have three types of media in the box. I have the old stars that look like coral, if I remember right, they work best if fully submerged, as well as blue plastic balls and orange rings, that I think they work best as wet/dry.

Problem with this filter is, I bored two holes in the pump box and attached bulkheads to them, to drain the filter into a 35 gallon trash can that I had back in the stairwell hole. Now I don't have that option, but would still like to keep extra water for a more stable system. Does anyone have any ideas here? Short of going and buying another trash can for a new sump, How Ugly in my dining room. Does anyone have an economical, more attractive idea about adding a sump out in the open?

Also, I have a Magnum 350 power filter that I'd like to use again. Any ideas on making that thing easier to clean, without making a huge mess. That's the only thing I hated about that filter, therefore it didn't get serviced as often as it should have been.

In keeping with the Magnum 350, I think I'd like to install an old Aquanetics systems UV sterilizer that I have, Unfortunately the 36 watt bulb is broken, and I cannot even install the sterilizer until I find a new bulb, as the bulb comes in direct contact with the water. I've been unsuccessful at finding a replacement bulb as of yet, and really don't know what brand is the best to choose from, or where to get it, being cost concious. Any advice would be appreciated here.

Regarding lighting, I have to start from scratch here. My old hood is deteriorated beyond use, so I'd like input on the best bang for the buck for both live coral and fish system. When I got out of the hobby, Metal Halide was the cat's meow. What's popular now, are led's usable (for low power consumption), If I go with flourescent, what types, power, and how many would you recommend, also what type of ballast to use. I think I'd build my own hood no matter what, either metal halide or flourescent.

Ok, that's enough for now, any other help beyond what i've mentioned would also be helpfull.

Thanks in advance,

 

[wontonflip]

Welcome to the site! As you'll see, many trials and errors have been made over the years. There's still no one way to do things, but we've all learned from experience.

I can't picture your set up in my head, but I think you can do with just the skimmer. The others would just add more extra work. Some people have successes with wet/dry filters if they maintain them...but as I mentioned, it's just extra unnecessary work.

The magnum is a canister filter right? See above....not necessary for saltwater....more trouble than its worth. The UV sterilizer is still useful. I know some here use it, but not necessary.

If you can afford it, people are going towards LED lighting now (one of the big buzzwords are radions :D ). Otherwise, just get a good T5 setup. If you're doing fowlr only, no powerful lights needed. Flourescent is no good if you're keepign corals.

 

[Salty B]

If its a glass tank, its been sitting around for a long time. I had one that was set up and then stored for 5 years and the silicone rotted. Definately give it a leak test! There are also plenty of inexpensive corals out there that don't require regular feedings and do well under T5's. Thus making it easier to just run a skimmer if you're not overfeeding. Look forward to seeing this come together.

 

[Smitty]

Hello and welcome to the site.

 

[theplummer]

I can't picture your set up in my head, but I think you can do with just the skimmer. The others would just add more extra work. Some people have successes with wet/dry filters if they maintain them...but as I mentioned, it's just extra unnecessary work.

The magnum is a canister filter right? See above....not necessary for saltwater....more trouble than its worth. The UV sterilizer is still useful. I know some here use it, but not necessary.

If you can afford it, people are going towards LED lighting now (one of the big buzzwords are radions :D ). Otherwise, just get a good T5 setup. If you're doing fowlr only, no powerful lights needed. Flourescent is no good if you're keepign corals.

Really? Wet/dry filters are not needed? I wasn't able to even keep damsels in the past until I added the hang on the back wet/dry biological filter. Has the technology changed?

Also, it appears that quite a few are using deep sand bottoms. I had lots of problems with that also. My best success was to use crushed coral gravel and just enough to cover the bottom (for asthetics). Gobies and starfish didn't care for it much though.

The magnum is a canister filter, and not necessary? How do you keep the water crystal clear without it. I had the best luck by using it as a charcoal canister with a blue pre-filter wrap. The paper filter just got dirty too fast and didn't have enough charcoal to keep an overstocked tank. Is there new theories or technologies being used now?

I typically like a few live corals (nothing exotic) and larger fish. I'm leaning toward a Yellow Tang for cycling (I did not like those pesky damsels), a clown trigger, some type of angelfish probably an emporer, maybe a lionfish (I had one that ate dried krill, no live feeds necessary), I would like to have a psychadelic mandrin for the girls, naturally a clownfish, already named NEMO. Then various cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp.

Gosh, it's been longer than I thought since I got out of this hobby. I've probably forgotten too much to have a sucessful first try.

If I go with metal halide, is there a heat issue and power consumption problem? I'm just not sure what's available and really smart to use.

Also, does anyone have any luck with mail order fish, The closest salt water store is at least an hour away, not to mention the brick and mortar prices. I once paid $200 for a purple tang, it died a week later.

 

[theplummer]

If its a glass tank, its been sitting around for a long time. I had one that was set up and then stored for 5 years and the silicone rotted. Definately give it a leak test! There are also plenty of inexpensive corals out there that don't require regular feedings and do well under T5's. Thus making it easier to just run a skimmer if you're not overfeeding. Look forward to seeing this come together.

Good point. What if the silicone is bad, is there a fix or is it cheaper to buy new. If I do that, it'll probably end the venture, or I'll look into a acryllic tank, may have to wait a while if that's the case.

 

[Bifferwine]

I would highly suggest avoiding crushed coral substrate. That can often lead to water quality problems. And as you've noted, inverts don't like it. Stick with aragonite sand.

Also, ditch the wet/dry filter, bioballs, and canister filter. That can lead to high nitrates as well. The preferred method of keeping good water quality is live rock (1 to 2 lbs per gallon) and a good quality protein skimmer. It's simple, and it works. Much easier than using all that other crap!

In a 55 gallon tank, you will be limited to about 6 fish, so choose wisely. :) Also, cycling using live fish has not been an acceptable practice for a long time, in reference to you cycling with a tang. There is no need to cycle using live fish. Just toss a piece of frozen shrimp from the grocery store in the tank instead, and you will get a cycle. Then you don't subject the fish to cruel conditions while the tank is cycling.

You will not be able to fit a trigger or angel in a tank that size. It looks like you are going towards a predator or non-reef safe tank, and those fish all require much larger tanks. Here is a really good website to get an idea of what size tanks these fish require:

Aquarium Fish: Tropical Freshwater Fish and Saltwater Fish for Home Aquariums

Their care guides and profiles of each fish are pretty accurate. Some will say that a yellow tang in a 55 is pushing it, but I think it's okay. :) There are only a few types of tangs that can be kept in a 4-foot long tank, and a yellow tang is one of them. Although it will outgrow the tank eventually.

A mandarin will be very difficult to keep unless you find one that is eating frozen food. They can be picky eaters, so when you buy one, be sure to ask that it be fed in front of you. If it doesn't take the prepared food, then pass on buying that fish. Otherwise it will starve to death in your tank.

So, in short, keep it simple: start off with live rock (or a mix of live and dry rock, to save money. Dry rock will become live over time). Buy a good quality protein skimmer (Reef Octopus is a good brand and at a good price). Cycle using a piece of shrimp.

Oh and don't use tap water. Invest in an RODI unit that hooks up under your sink. Starting with RODI water will eliminate so many problems that frustrate people with new tanks that set up their tanks with tap water.

Welcome, I'm glad you've joined us and have been giving your "new" setup some thought. :)

 

[Tim]

As far as your daughters dresser for the stand, you said you were'nt sure if it would pass the weight test. Thats not a place I would cut any corners. I'm in the process of upgrading to a 110 gal. that I picked up cheap with no stand from a 55 gal. I did a little searching around and found these plans online How to Build a DIY Aquarium Stand (DIY AQUARIUM STAND PROJECTS) Its easy to build and I have less than 60 dollars in it total. Plus with this type of stand you have the option of a sump under the display tank which is always nice to have. I'm no carpenter by any means but heres what I came up with over the course of the weekend working on it here and there.

 

[wontonflip]

If you do a deep sand bed, it has to be at least 5" for it to be brneficial. most of us don't bother. I have just enough to cover the bottom, and my gobie loves it.

Fyi, I only rely on live sand, live rock, a skimmer (Octopus skimmers seem to be among the best), and a ball of chaeto and my water is crystal clear, especially once my goby has sifted my sand out.

 

[2XAl]

hey Tim that stand is awesome, i found a great deal on a 90 one of the only things holding me back is a lack of a good stand.

 

[theplummer]

As far as your daughters dresser for the stand, you said you were'nt sure if it would pass the weight test. Thats not a place I would cut any corners. I'm in the process of upgrading to a 110 gal. that I picked up cheap with no stand from a 55 gal. I did a little searching around and found these plans online How to Build a DIY Aquarium Stand (DIY AQUARIUM STAND PROJECTS) Its easy to build and I have less than 60 dollars in it total. Plus with this type of stand you have the option of a sump under the display tank which is always nice to have. I'm no carpenter by any means but heres what I came up with over the course of the weekend working on it here and there.

Your stand looks really good, and good point on not skimping on stability, I'd hate to come home to ruined pergo floor, just because I'm too cheap to do it right.

I do have to say, that I do like the look of the dresser more and more, purely for asthetics, I'm even beginning to not mind the color white. I do think I could add some structure to the inside of the dresser and add a foot in each corner and one in the center, and only lose the use of one drawer, I have a carpenter coming by this week to look at it with me, to give me ideas.

I also think that I can lightly sand the dresser and paint it glossy black with rustoleum spray cans, let it tack off, then wipe the detail work and flutes on the sides and feet to give it an antique feel. I might do that while I do a leak test on the tank, as it's been sitting for a dozen or so years.

I'm still confused about the science of only needing a protien skimmer and not needing the extra media surface that the wet/dry offers, especially when using such a small tank and I plan to overstock it with carnivors and corals. I like doing that, as I've found that the fish pretty much leave the corals alone, as it's not to their taste and the corals get left alone. Except I had a niger trigger once that was able to re-arrange the tank to his liking everyday. I was amazed how he could move rocks many times larger than he was. Everyday I'd wake up to a new decor in the tank. I find that so amazing as the lights were on a timer and there was no ambient light in the room during the night, so he did all his work in the dark.

Now that I think about the wet/dry more, I guess I didn't use it in the traditional sense anyway. Before, I did not like putting agitation pumps inside the aquarium, because once in a while they'd catch a anenome or small fish and kill them, so I place two submersible pumps in the outboard sump and pipe the return water back in at a fairly high rate, over 200gph. By doing this, I had to add a second 1" siphon tube inside the skimmer box to keep up with the water flow being pumped out. Maybe that had something to do with my wet/dry. In addition to the Magnum filter's output speed in acting as an agitator. I had quite a active water flow, so much so, that I once had a porcupine puffer that when he got stressed and blew up, he would bounce around the tank like he was in a tornado. Any thoughts here? Am I a real novice or what?

 

[wontonflip]

I'm still confused about the science of only needing a protien skimmer and not needing the extra media surface that the wet/dry offers, especially when using such a small tank and I plan to overstock it with carnivors and corals. I like doing that, as I've found that the fish pretty much leave the corals alone, as it's not to their taste and the corals get left alone. Except I had a niger trigger once that was able to re-arrange the tank to his liking everyday. I was amazed how he could move rocks many times larger than he was. Everyday I'd wake up to a new decor in the tank. I find that so amazing as the lights were on a timer and there was no ambient light in the room during the night, so he did all his work in the dark.

Now that I think about the wet/dry more, I guess I didn't use it in the traditional sense anyway. Before, I did not like putting agitation pumps inside the aquarium, because once in a while they'd catch a anenome or small fish and kill them, so I place two submersible pumps in the outboard sump and pipe the return water back in at a fairly high rate, over 200gph. By doing this, I had to add a second 1" siphon tube inside the skimmer box to keep up with the water flow being pumped out. Maybe that had something to do with my wet/dry. In addition to the Magnum filter's output speed in acting as an agitator. I had quite a active water flow, so much so, that I once had a porcupine puffer that when he got stressed and blew up, he would bounce around the tank like he was in a tornado. Any thoughts here? Am I a real novice or what?

Here is the difference. The skimmer removes gunk from the water column before they have a chance to break down into ammonia, nitrites, then nitrates. The wet/dry filters do NOT remove it from the water column. Unless you actually rinse out the gunk regularly, the gunk is still in the water, giving it a chance to break down. Those who successfully run wet/dry media in their systems do clean out their canisters regularly.

Do a search on this site for people who have canisters. Most end up ditching them (which has to be done over the course of several weeks, one cup at a time if you do it in an established tank -- because you're essentially removing beneficial nitrifying bacteria from the water column). But again, those who are successful, put in the extra work.

Carnivores poop. Poop breaks down. Good skimmers pull a lot of it out before they break down.

Every fish is different. Some people have non-reef-safe fish that don't bother their corals, and some have "reef safe" fish that do eat corals. You probably got lucky. There's always that 50/50 chance :)

 

[theplummer]

Ok, a little update. I have installed a infrastructure inside the dresser to beef up the load carrying capacity of since it'll be packing much more weight than I'm sure it was rated for. Neat thing is I only lost one drawer, I'll just disassemble the drawer front and make it a falsie.

Still haven't decided wether or not to leave it white or paint it black, and wether to try to make it "piano black" or antique it.

With regards to the Hang on back bio-filter, I think I finally get it. The bio process breaks down amonia, to nitrites: nitrites to nitrates, but doesn't compensate for a way to remove the nitrates except for excessive water changes. That equals extra expense in salt and nutrients, not to mention RO/DI water.

So, now I'm sold on the idea of a good quality protien skimmer (to remove as much waste from the system as possible to reduce the load on the refugium, therefore allowing either more living stock to be implimented into the system, or the use of a smaller refugium to handle the load. I've been quoted that a good protien skimmer removes about 30% of the total load waste that the refugium has to handle. Am I correct in my summation so far?

With regards to a refugium, the way I see it, it's merely a second separate environment that shares water with the first, giving the ability to place species that are compatable with each other in one tank, while placing species that would normally not be compatable, but benificial to the system, into a protected environment, therefore getting the best of both worlds. Am I correct so far?

That being said, I had always wanted a second tank, One with predator fish, or more aggressive fish, and corals that would be safe with those species located above a second identical tank display, placed below that was a delicate reef aquarium. kind of giving the visual of an actual reef ocean setting, where the deeper one looks into the reef, the more one finds.

Now on to furthering my education. What are the pro's and con's to a deep sand beed, with live sand in the refugium, apposed to "miricle mud" (and what exactly do they contain that makes them benifical) and can I get away with purchasing a smaller amount of these products and introduce them into the (dead) version, to re-animate the dead sand, thereby saving money, in lieu of speed of growing the system, which I'm going to be VERY patient on this project anyway, so saving money is preferrable.

 

[Kelz88]

If you beef up the dresser in the center and the corners it should be fine as long as its solid wood and not that particle board junk. Also instead of making a falsie drawer, you could make it into a shelf for fish food, nets or whatever.

I dont have a refugium but people usually put chaeto macro algae in there and use it to remove excess nitrates. I notice alot of people have a fish or two or some other not reef safe creature in the fuge.

Deep sand beds scare me but thats my personal preference.

Live sand and rock have beneficial bacteria that helps with filtration but that can be "seeded" using dead sand and dry rock with a little bit of live rock saving you A LOT of money. I have a tank with mostly live rock/sand and one with mostly dry rock/sand, and the only real difference is how it looks. Which, once the coraline takes off will be alot less noticeable. I have 0 experience with miracle mud, ill let someone else chime in on that.

Patience is half the battle, best of luck :)

 

[little_fish]

Hello and Welcome to the site!

The conversion of the ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate is performed by the bacteria that will colonize every surface in your tank, that is what makes the rocks and sand live. There is no hang on the back filter that completes this process, its performed by living creatures in the tank. They will live in the HOB filter, but its not the filter that is doing anything. Its just providing more surface area for the bacteria to grow.

Like you have mentioned, a protein skimmer is a good investment because they make it easier to keep good water quality, but they dont let you keep more fish in your tank. The amount of fish you can keep is determined by the amount of space they have to live in. Every fish has a right to have enough space to live happily and healthily. And with the fish you like, you arent going to be able to keep too many fish because they all require large territories. If you fail to provide this to them, you will have sick and stressed fish. Which isnt fair to them, because its so easy to prevent. If you want more fish, or big fish, get a bigger tank. And I have never heard of that statistic before, and i wouldnt think there would be anyway to quantify or verify that.

Also the refugium isnt a separate tank to keep more fish in, its a place to grow macro algae and give pods and other micro crustaceans a safe place to breed before being washed out in the tank where they become free fishy snacks. It also give you more water volume so that if you do have a bit a disaster, you have more water to dilute the issue out with.

You can plumb multiple tanks together, but that isnt the same as having a refugium and display tank.

There are two safe, fail proof ways to remove nitrates, manually (water changes) and with macro algae. Which is why people like refugiums, they make their lives a little bit easier. DSB are also known for removing nitrates by creating an oxygen free zone. In this area, special bacteria can colonize that convert the nitrates to nitrogen gas, which can float away. However, a biproduct of this process is hydrogen sulfide gas and other nasties which will crash a tank if disturbed and released into the water column. So if you want to go this route, you must be about to disconnect the DSB quickly, so put it in a remote container. IMO, there are much better, easier and safe ways of removing nitrates, making DSB just silly. The other is additives and some filter material, but they dont always work, take months to start working and get expensive. Also not worth it IMO.

Also you can start with mostly dry rocks and all dry sand. They just add a few piece of live rock. This will seed everything else, and after you cycle the tank, everything will be live and you will have more money in your pocket for the fun stuff. My favorite place to buy dry rock is MarcoRocks Aquarium Products

 

[theplummer]

You know what, I just went through all my other fish (what I know now to be) Junk, and found a small coil denitrator. It is about 2 1/2 " in diameter and about 10" long. The one thing I've found through research is tha it should be filled with bioballs, mine is not, and there is no way to disassemble mine to install them.

Does this thing have any real value to be used in today's refugium systems or did I get duped when I purchased it way back when.

Conincidentally, I think I may have just scored a winner. Craigslist in my area has a listing for a 45 Gal Bowfront and stand for $50.00. I'm all over that one, I think this will give me plenty of options for something I'm gonna call a "REEFugium".

With this savings, I might be able to come up with a RO/DI right away also.

 

[little_fish]

ya, you go duped. But there are better deals for tanks out there for fuges. Petco or Petsmart (I cant remember which right now) will have a $1/gal sale every now and then. You can pick up a 30 gal tank, which is the same length at the 46 bow, but is a much better shape (ie thinner and not so tall). I have a 46 bow for my display tank, and I would hate to use the thing as a fuge, it would be much too awkward. Plus at the widest point, the 46 bow is wider than your 55 gal, so Im not sure it would fit in your converted stand.

 

[ErinCahir]

Petco has the $1/gallon sale. ;)

 

[theplummer]

Update. Got the dresser painted black, didn't turn out as good as I had hoped for, but better than my actual ability (when it comes to painting). The inner bracing is complete, and I was able to salvage the one drawer by shortening it to a small 6" deep drawer, I'll figure out something to fit in there, probably a air pump. I installed a power strip inside the back of the dresser and bored a 3 1/2" hole in the back to pass all power wires back and forth, so as I only have one cord for the whole shootin match, once up and running.

Now I'm on a crusade to find a cheap tank for a display refuge style refugium. Since there is no place in the dresser to place a sump, I hope to find a 30 gal or larger one with a stand that can hold a sump and protien skimmer. I checked with Petco and they are NOT having the $1gal sale at this time in my area. I'll keep checking though, meanwhile I'll keep an eye on Craigslist also.

While I'm trying to find another aquarium, I should probably focus on finding a kit to install a skimmer box on my 55 and drill the back for a bulkhead. Any tips on size of box, location, depth, links to online kits etc. would be greatly appreciated. I want to drill the tank now because I remember having a couple of floods from the siphon pipes failing in the past. Don't want any mess on the hardwood floor while I'm away at work.

 

[little_fish]

One thing to keep in mind when you are setting up your sump/fuge system is that one tank must be gravity fed. Even if you get two of the same pump, one will work a little bit harder and you will find that one tank will fill while the other one drains. You just cant get two pumps to move exactly the same amount of water.

Also, air pumps are also freshwater technology that mess with saltwater tanks. They screw with the pH and cause a lot of salt creep