What's the best SALT?

Discussion in 'Reef Fishes' started by Peter Pan, Jan 21, 2006.

  1. Peter Pan

    Pszemol Guest

    "Jaime R-S" <jaime_rs@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:9meCf.9245$vp6.7969@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
    > As an aquarist, I am a newbie.


    Oh come on... I think you are too hard on yourself. L0L! :))

    Months ago, you claimed here you are an expert aquarist!
    From your first post here you were trying to mesmerize
    everyone with your successful experiments with reef tanks
    and no maintenance required, magical filters etc!

    Do You Remember ? If not, the Google archive will remind you:
    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/msg/b33482dfe1c4abd0?hl=en
    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/msg/8827ab4b3cd368a9?hl=en

    You were even ready to patent the system, comparing your
    invention (in your own, very humble way) to a light bulb and
    calling advanced aquarists here per your "son", suggesting
    we need to learn from you because you ... :)

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/msg/7def296ace1cfae8?hl=en
    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/msg/9750df0777f9095e?hl=en

    And now, you claim to be a newbie ? Oh come on... give me a break!
     
    Pszemol, Jan 27, 2006
    #61
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  2. Peter Pan

    unclenorm Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    Hi All,
    A few facts regarding Instant Ocean I thought might interest
    you.
    I recently contacted Aquarium Systems technical dept.(the
    manufacturer of IO) and asked for a full analysis with quantity's in
    ppm, required for an ongoing survey into salt mixes.
    I got a prompt reply in the form of a list titled 'Typical
    Composition of Instant Ocean Salt'. It listed 13 Ion's with exact
    numbers, a further 15 with a 'less than' number, most of which were a
    great deal higher than natural sea water, up to ten times higher, it
    also listed Nitrate and Phosphate as zero.
    I replied to this and pointed out that this list was less than
    half the number of Ion's present in natural sea water.
    They replied and I quote "The ions shown are the ones we have
    had analysed or have info on from our raw material suppliers. This is
    the only information we can provide."
    I leave you to draw your own conclusions!!!???
    regards,
    unclenorm.











    Wayne Sallee wrote:
    > Well this thread has been typical of "best salt" threads.
    > They are always loooong.
    >
    > Wayne Sallee
    > Wayne's Pets
    > Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >
    >
    > Peter Pan wrote on 1/21/2006 1:25 PM:
    > > I've been using Instant Ocean since I set up my 75 Gal. FOWLR tank in 2002
    > > and never had a problem. I've read that its not really a good idea to change
    > > salt, but if you were to change it, it was a very lengthy process with
    > > mixing your current salt with the new stuff until your completly changed
    > > over.( the process should take several months.
    > >
    > > My local LFS said that KENT was better for my tank then using Instant Ocean.
    > > What im wondering is; Is it better for his profits or is it really a better
    > > product for my tank?
    > >
    > > Thanks
    > >
    > >
     
    unclenorm, Jan 27, 2006
    #62
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  3. Peter Pan

    Wayne Sallee Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    Yes what you recieved sounds like a normal analysis. I
    have recieved several over the years from different
    manufactures.

    But the statement "The ions shown are the ones we have had
    analysed or have info on from our raw material suppliers.
    This is the only information we can provide.", I find very
    interesting, and not to my satisfaction. That's
    disapointing that a salt manufacture would only rely on
    what they are being told by their suppliers. I'll have to
    e-mail one of the higher-ups at IO, and see what responce
    I get.

    Wayne Sallee
    Wayne's Pets
    Wayne@WaynesPets.com


    unclenorm wrote on 1/27/2006 12:37 AM:
    > Hi All,
    > A few facts regarding Instant Ocean I thought might interest
    > you.
    > I recently contacted Aquarium Systems technical dept.(the
    > manufacturer of IO) and asked for a full analysis with quantity's in
    > ppm, required for an ongoing survey into salt mixes.
    > I got a prompt reply in the form of a list titled 'Typical
    > Composition of Instant Ocean Salt'. It listed 13 Ion's with exact
    > numbers, a further 15 with a 'less than' number, most of which were a
    > great deal higher than natural sea water, up to ten times higher, it
    > also listed Nitrate and Phosphate as zero.
    > I replied to this and pointed out that this list was less than
    > half the number of Ion's present in natural sea water.
    > They replied and I quote "The ions shown are the ones we have
    > had analysed or have info on from our raw material suppliers. This is
    > the only information we can provide."
    > I leave you to draw your own conclusions!!!???
    > regards,
    > unclenorm.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Wayne Sallee wrote:
    >
    >>Well this thread has been typical of "best salt" threads.
    >>They are always loooong.
    >>
    >>Wayne Sallee
    >>Wayne's Pets
    >>Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >>
    >>
    >>Peter Pan wrote on 1/21/2006 1:25 PM:
    >>
    >>>I've been using Instant Ocean since I set up my 75 Gal. FOWLR tank in 2002
    >>>and never had a problem. I've read that its not really a good idea to change
    >>>salt, but if you were to change it, it was a very lengthy process with
    >>>mixing your current salt with the new stuff until your completly changed
    >>>over.( the process should take several months.
    >>>
    >>>My local LFS said that KENT was better for my tank then using Instant Ocean.
    >>>What im wondering is; Is it better for his profits or is it really a better
    >>>product for my tank?
    >>>
    >>>Thanks
    >>>
    >>>

    >
    >
     
    Wayne Sallee, Jan 27, 2006
    #63
  4. Peter Pan

    Wayne Sallee Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    Bob Studt, who sent you the analysis, said those are
    results of actual tests on the finished product. So they
    are indeed testing the final product, not just going by
    what their suppliers are telling them.

    Wayne Sallee
    Wayne's Pets
    Wayne@WaynesPets.com


    Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/27/2006 10:12 AM:
    > Yes what you recieved sounds like a normal analysis. I have recieved
    > several over the years from different manufactures.
    >
    > But the statement "The ions shown are the ones we have had analysed or
    > have info on from our raw material suppliers. This is the only
    > information we can provide.", I find very interesting, and not to my
    > satisfaction. That's disapointing that a salt manufacture would only
    > rely on what they are being told by their suppliers. I'll have to e-mail
    > one of the higher-ups at IO, and see what responce I get.
    >
    > Wayne Sallee
    > Wayne's Pets
    > Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >
    >
    > unclenorm wrote on 1/27/2006 12:37 AM:
    >
    >> Hi All,
    >> A few facts regarding Instant Ocean I thought might interest
    >> you.
    >> I recently contacted Aquarium Systems technical dept.(the
    >> manufacturer of IO) and asked for a full analysis with quantity's in
    >> ppm, required for an ongoing survey into salt mixes.
    >> I got a prompt reply in the form of a list titled 'Typical
    >> Composition of Instant Ocean Salt'. It listed 13 Ion's with exact
    >> numbers, a further 15 with a 'less than' number, most of which were a
    >> great deal higher than natural sea water, up to ten times higher, it
    >> also listed Nitrate and Phosphate as zero.
    >> I replied to this and pointed out that this list was less than
    >> half the number of Ion's present in natural sea water.
    >> They replied and I quote "The ions shown are the ones we have
    >> had analysed or have info on from our raw material suppliers. This is
    >> the only information we can provide."
    >> I leave you to draw your own conclusions!!!???
    >> regards,
    >> unclenorm.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Wayne Sallee wrote:
    >>
    >>> Well this thread has been typical of "best salt" threads.
    >>> They are always loooong.
    >>>
    >>> Wayne Sallee
    >>> Wayne's Pets
    >>> Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Peter Pan wrote on 1/21/2006 1:25 PM:
    >>>
    >>>> I've been using Instant Ocean since I set up my 75 Gal. FOWLR tank
    >>>> in 2002
    >>>> and never had a problem. I've read that its not really a good idea
    >>>> to change
    >>>> salt, but if you were to change it, it was a very lengthy process with
    >>>> mixing your current salt with the new stuff until your completly
    >>>> changed
    >>>> over.( the process should take several months.
    >>>>
    >>>> My local LFS said that KENT was better for my tank then using
    >>>> Instant Ocean.
    >>>> What im wondering is; Is it better for his profits or is it really a
    >>>> better
    >>>> product for my tank?
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks
    >>>>

    >>
    >>
     
    Wayne Sallee, Jan 27, 2006
    #64
  5. Peter Pan

    Don Geddis Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "unclenorm" <normnam2000@hotmail.com> wrote on 26 Jan 2006 21:3:
    > I got a prompt reply in the form of a list titled 'Typical
    > Composition of Instant Ocean Salt'. It listed 13 Ion's with exact
    > numbers, a further 15 with a 'less than' number
    > I replied to this and pointed out that this list was less than
    > half the number of Ion's present in natural sea water.


    So 30 ions is "less than half" of the number of ions in natural sea water?

    You think there are 60-70 ions in NSW? Where did you get your list?

    As I understand it, there are trace particles of pretty much EVERY (naturally
    occurring) element in NSW. Of course, some of the more rare elements are
    very, very dilute.

    But lets see ... we've got 100+ elements in the periodic table, plus atomic
    variants (different numbers of neutrons) of each. Plus some might be missing
    an electron or two, making an ion.

    But that's just single atoms. There are also lots of molecules (starting with
    H2O) in seawater. And ions of some of those.

    Even just counting inorganic items, surely there are hundreds or thousands of
    distinct "things" in natural sea water. You start counting organic molecules
    too and no doubt you'll be in the millions and billions and trillions.

    But none of this really matters, right? All we care about are whether our
    ornamental creatures in our aquaria require some particular
    element/ion/molecule to survive.

    Given that the full biology of most creatures is not well understood, can you
    really tell me for certain that they DON'T need any one of the trillions of
    different things found in natural sea water?

    Or perhaps we can all agree that, with artificial salt mix, we're just
    approximating the most important elements, needed by (and sufficient for) the
    vast majority of life that we try to keep. In that case, who is to say that
    30 such things is "not enough" to measure, but 100 of them would be "all we
    need".

    Why is the line you drew (between what you measure, and what you ignore) any
    better than the reply you got from Instant Ocean? Aside from the obvious fact
    that you'd like to measure a superset of what they told you, so of course it
    ought to be slightly better. But no matter how many you pick, you'll still be
    leaving out the vast majority of trace components.

    -- Don
    _______________________________________________________________________________
    Don Geddis don@geddis.org http://reef.geddis.org/
     
    Don Geddis, Jan 28, 2006
    #65
  6. Peter Pan

    Jaime R-S Guest

    Hey! I did say I was a newbie aquarist, but that doesn't mean I am not a
    marine bio with more than 15 years of experience in coastal systems...

    As for my experiment, well, I remember you even made fun of it. Well, it
    has been seven months now without the need of a single water change with
    twice the species...

    All I said then and repeat now is that you aquarists should read more
    science and less magazines. You are expending too much money on something
    very simple...

    Yes, I am a newbie aquarist, I only had a tank for 7 months, my first, lol

    jrs
    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:drbb3m.3sk.1@poczta.onet.pl...
    > "Jaime R-S" <jaime_rs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:9meCf.9245$vp6.7969@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
    >> As an aquarist, I am a newbie.

    >
    > Oh come on... I think you are too hard on yourself. L0L! :))
    >
    > Months ago, you claimed here you are an expert aquarist!
    > From your first post here you were trying to mesmerize
    > everyone with your successful experiments with reef tanks
    > and no maintenance required, magical filters etc!
    >
    > Do You Remember ? If not, the Google archive will remind you:
    > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/msg/b33482dfe1c4abd0?hl=en
    > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/msg/8827ab4b3cd368a9?hl=en
    >
    > You were even ready to patent the system, comparing your
    > invention (in your own, very humble way) to a light bulb and
    > calling advanced aquarists here per your "son", suggesting
    > we need to learn from you because you ... :)
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/msg/7def296ace1cfae8?hl=en
    > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/msg/9750df0777f9095e?hl=en
    >
    > And now, you claim to be a newbie ? Oh come on... give me a break!
     
    Jaime R-S, Jan 28, 2006
    #66
  7. Peter Pan

    unclenorm Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    Hi Wayne,
    As you say it was Bob Studt that replied to me but his
    reply to you is somewhat different to his reply to me which I quoted
    word for word in my post. As I said the 13 ion's given precise numbers
    were reasonable in the most part, 2or 3 on the high side, but the 15
    given 'less than' numbers would have be considerably 'Less than' to get
    any ware near natural sea water. I would also point out that these
    results were about 2.5 years old, testing of a product that can be as
    inconsistent as a salt mix should be done on a frequent schedule.
    regards,
    unclenorm.

    PS to answer Don Geddis there are about 70 elements and trace elements
    regarded as important to the marine hobby.
     
    unclenorm, Jan 28, 2006
    #67
  8. Peter Pan

    Don Geddis Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "unclenorm" <normnam2000@hotmail.com> wrote on 28 Jan 2006 02:0:
    > PS to answer Don Geddis there are about 70 elements and trace elements
    > regarded as important to the marine hobby.


    You assert this, but can you provide backup? What is the list of 70?
    "Regarded as important" by who? I've been doing this (home reef tank)
    for a few years, read a lot of books, and haven't ever seen such a list.

    The common ones that you see in all the reefkeeping books -- for example
    the nitrogen cycle, salinity, pH, phosphates -- probably numbers 10-15
    molecules.

    I'm really curious where you get your list of 70. And, more specifically, what
    they are.

    -- Don
    _______________________________________________________________________________
    Don Geddis don@geddis.org http://reef.geddis.org/
    I have to get home quickly. I think something terrible may have happened
    to my Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.
     
    Don Geddis, Jan 28, 2006
    #68
  9. Peter Pan

    Pszemol Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "Don Geddis" <don@geddis.org> wrote in message news:871wys3ur9.fsf@geddis.org...
    > "unclenorm" <normnam2000@hotmail.com> wrote on 28 Jan 2006 02:0:
    >> PS to answer Don Geddis there are about 70 elements and trace elements
    >> regarded as important to the marine hobby.

    >
    > You assert this, but can you provide backup? What is the list of 70?
    > "Regarded as important" by who? I've been doing this (home reef tank)
    > for a few years, read a lot of books, and haven't ever seen such a list.
    >
    > The common ones that you see in all the reefkeeping books -- for example
    > the nitrogen cycle, salinity, pH, phosphates -- probably numbers 10-15
    > molecules.
    >
    > I'm really curious where you get your list of 70. And, more specifically, what
    > they are.


    I did a quick search and found this (note: number 70 mentioned):

    http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa012003d.htm
    http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/seasaltmixes/l/aa090503b.htm
     
    Pszemol, Jan 28, 2006
    #69
  10. Peter Pan

    Wayne Sallee Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    Here is some data to have some fun with :)



    Sea Water Anylisis 1968

    Clorine 19,000
    Sodium 10,500
    Magnesium 1,350
    Sulfur 8885
    Calium 400
    Potassium 65
    Carbon 28
    Strotium 8
    Boron 4.6
    Silicon 3
    Florine 1.3
    Argon .6
    Nitrogen .5
    Lithium 1.7
    Rubidium 1.2
    Phosphorus .07
    Iodine .06
    Barium .03
    Idium .02
    Iron .01
    Molybdenum .01
    Zinc .01
    Aluminum .01
    Selenium .004
    Copper .003
    Tin .003
    Uranium .003
    Arcenic .003
    Vanadium .002
    Nickel .002
    Manganese .002
    Titanium .001
    Antimony .0005
    Cesium .0005
    Cobalt .0005
    Cerium .0004
    Yttrium .0003
    Silver .0003
    Krypton .0003
    Lanthanum .0003
    Neon .0001
    Xenon .0001
    Tungsten .0001
    Gadmium .0001
    Germanium .00007
    Thorium .00005
    Chromium .00005
    Scandium .00004
    Mercury .00003
    Lead .00003
    Gallium .00003
    Bismuth .00002
    Niobium .00001
    Thallium .00001
    Helium .000005
    Gold .000004
    Pratactinium .000002
    Radium .0000001
    Radon .0000000000006






    Instant Ocean 34ppt salinity 1994
    Chloride 19251
    Sodium 10757
    Sulfate 2669
    Magnesium 1317
    Potassium 402
    Calcium 398
    Carbonate/Bicarbonate 192
    Strotium 8.6
    Boron 5.6
    Bromide 2.3
    Iodide .22
    Lithium .18
    Copper <.03
    Iron <.03
    Nickle <.04
    Zinc <.02
    Manganese <.01
    Molybdenum <.01
    Cobalt <.05
    Vanadium <.04
    Selenium Trace
    Florine <.05
    Lead <.005
    Arsenic <.0002
    Cadmium <.02
    Chroium <.0006
    Aluminum <.04
    Tin Trace
    Atimony Trace
    Rubidum Trace
    Barium <.05
    Mercury None
    Nitrate None
    Phosphate None

    Wayne Sallee
    Wayne's Pets
    Wayne@WaynesPets.com

    Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/27/2006 11:05 AM:
    > Bob Studt, who sent you the analysis, said those are results of actual
    > tests on the finished product. So they are indeed testing the final
    > product, not just going by what their suppliers are telling them.
    >
    > Wayne Sallee
    > Wayne's Pets
    > Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >
    >
    > Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/27/2006 10:12 AM:
    >
    >> Yes what you recieved sounds like a normal analysis. I have recieved
    >> several over the years from different manufactures.
    >>
    >> But the statement "The ions shown are the ones we have had analysed or
    >> have info on from our raw material suppliers. This is the only
    >> information we can provide.", I find very interesting, and not to my
    >> satisfaction. That's disapointing that a salt manufacture would only
    >> rely on what they are being told by their suppliers. I'll have to
    >> e-mail one of the higher-ups at IO, and see what responce I get.
    >>
    >> Wayne Sallee
    >> Wayne's Pets
    >> Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >>
    >>
    >> unclenorm wrote on 1/27/2006 12:37 AM:
    >>
    >>> Hi All,
    >>> A few facts regarding Instant Ocean I thought might interest
    >>> you.
    >>> I recently contacted Aquarium Systems technical dept.(the
    >>> manufacturer of IO) and asked for a full analysis with quantity's in
    >>> ppm, required for an ongoing survey into salt mixes.
    >>> I got a prompt reply in the form of a list titled 'Typical
    >>> Composition of Instant Ocean Salt'. It listed 13 Ion's with exact
    >>> numbers, a further 15 with a 'less than' number, most of which were a
    >>> great deal higher than natural sea water, up to ten times higher, it
    >>> also listed Nitrate and Phosphate as zero.
    >>> I replied to this and pointed out that this list was less than
    >>> half the number of Ion's present in natural sea water.
    >>> They replied and I quote "The ions shown are the ones we have
    >>> had analysed or have info on from our raw material suppliers. This is
    >>> the only information we can provide."
    >>> I leave you to draw your own conclusions!!!???
    >>> regards,
    >>> unclenorm.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Wayne Sallee wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Well this thread has been typical of "best salt" threads.
    >>>> They are always loooong.
    >>>>
    >>>> Wayne Sallee
    >>>> Wayne's Pets
    >>>> Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Peter Pan wrote on 1/21/2006 1:25 PM:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I've been using Instant Ocean since I set up my 75 Gal. FOWLR tank
    >>>>> in 2002
    >>>>> and never had a problem. I've read that its not really a good idea
    >>>>> to change
    >>>>> salt, but if you were to change it, it was a very lengthy process with
    >>>>> mixing your current salt with the new stuff until your completly
    >>>>> changed
    >>>>> over.( the process should take several months.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> My local LFS said that KENT was better for my tank then using
    >>>>> Instant Ocean.
    >>>>> What im wondering is; Is it better for his profits or is it really
    >>>>> a better
    >>>>> product for my tank?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Thanks
    >>>>>
    >>>
    >>>
     
    Wayne Sallee, Jan 30, 2006
    #70
  11. Peter Pan

    Jaime R-S Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    Strange, very close to what is in every cytoplasm of everyone of your
    cells...
    Most aquarists get lost in translation when it comes to biology. The
    important part is not the ratio is the ability of your fish to use that
    ratio to its advantages...

    jrs
    "Wayne Sallee" <Wayne@WayneSallee.com> wrote in message
    news:43DE54AF.4000502@WayneSallee.com...
    > Here is some data to have some fun with :)
    >
    >
    >
    > Sea Water Anylisis 1968
    >
    > Clorine 19,000
    > Sodium 10,500
    > Magnesium 1,350
    > Sulfur 8885
    > Calium 400
    > Potassium 65
    > Carbon 28
    > Strotium 8
    > Boron 4.6
    > Silicon 3
    > Florine 1.3
    > Argon .6
    > Nitrogen .5
    > Lithium 1.7
    > Rubidium 1.2
    > Phosphorus .07
    > Iodine .06
    > Barium .03
    > Idium .02
    > Iron .01
    > Molybdenum .01
    > Zinc .01
    > Aluminum .01
    > Selenium .004
    > Copper .003
    > Tin .003
    > Uranium .003
    > Arcenic .003
    > Vanadium .002
    > Nickel .002
    > Manganese .002
    > Titanium .001
    > Antimony .0005
    > Cesium .0005
    > Cobalt .0005
    > Cerium .0004
    > Yttrium .0003
    > Silver .0003
    > Krypton .0003
    > Lanthanum .0003
    > Neon .0001
    > Xenon .0001
    > Tungsten .0001
    > Gadmium .0001
    > Germanium .00007
    > Thorium .00005
    > Chromium .00005
    > Scandium .00004
    > Mercury .00003
    > Lead .00003
    > Gallium .00003
    > Bismuth .00002
    > Niobium .00001
    > Thallium .00001
    > Helium .000005
    > Gold .000004
    > Pratactinium .000002
    > Radium .0000001
    > Radon .0000000000006
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Instant Ocean 34ppt salinity 1994
    > Chloride 19251
    > Sodium 10757
    > Sulfate 2669
    > Magnesium 1317
    > Potassium 402
    > Calcium 398
    > Carbonate/Bicarbonate 192
    > Strotium 8.6
    > Boron 5.6
    > Bromide 2.3
    > Iodide .22
    > Lithium .18
    > Copper <.03
    > Iron <.03
    > Nickle <.04
    > Zinc <.02
    > Manganese <.01
    > Molybdenum <.01
    > Cobalt <.05
    > Vanadium <.04
    > Selenium Trace
    > Florine <.05
    > Lead <.005
    > Arsenic <.0002
    > Cadmium <.02
    > Chroium <.0006
    > Aluminum <.04
    > Tin Trace
    > Atimony Trace
    > Rubidum Trace
    > Barium <.05
    > Mercury None
    > Nitrate None
    > Phosphate None
    >
    > Wayne Sallee
    > Wayne's Pets
    > Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >
    > Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/27/2006 11:05 AM:
    >> Bob Studt, who sent you the analysis, said those are results of actual
    >> tests on the finished product. So they are indeed testing the final
    >> product, not just going by what their suppliers are telling them.
    >>
    >> Wayne Sallee
    >> Wayne's Pets
    >> Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >>
    >>
    >> Wayne Sallee wrote on 1/27/2006 10:12 AM:
    >>
    >>> Yes what you recieved sounds like a normal analysis. I have recieved
    >>> several over the years from different manufactures.
    >>>
    >>> But the statement "The ions shown are the ones we have had analysed or
    >>> have info on from our raw material suppliers. This is the only
    >>> information we can provide.", I find very interesting, and not to my
    >>> satisfaction. That's disapointing that a salt manufacture would only
    >>> rely on what they are being told by their suppliers. I'll have to e-mail
    >>> one of the higher-ups at IO, and see what responce I get.
    >>>
    >>> Wayne Sallee
    >>> Wayne's Pets
    >>> Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> unclenorm wrote on 1/27/2006 12:37 AM:
    >>>
    >>>> Hi All,
    >>>> A few facts regarding Instant Ocean I thought might interest
    >>>> you.
    >>>> I recently contacted Aquarium Systems technical dept.(the
    >>>> manufacturer of IO) and asked for a full analysis with quantity's in
    >>>> ppm, required for an ongoing survey into salt mixes.
    >>>> I got a prompt reply in the form of a list titled 'Typical
    >>>> Composition of Instant Ocean Salt'. It listed 13 Ion's with exact
    >>>> numbers, a further 15 with a 'less than' number, most of which were a
    >>>> great deal higher than natural sea water, up to ten times higher, it
    >>>> also listed Nitrate and Phosphate as zero.
    >>>> I replied to this and pointed out that this list was less than
    >>>> half the number of Ion's present in natural sea water.
    >>>> They replied and I quote "The ions shown are the ones we have
    >>>> had analysed or have info on from our raw material suppliers. This is
    >>>> the only information we can provide."
    >>>> I leave you to draw your own conclusions!!!???
    >>>> regards,
    >>>> unclenorm.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Wayne Sallee wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Well this thread has been typical of "best salt" threads.
    >>>>> They are always loooong.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Wayne Sallee
    >>>>> Wayne's Pets
    >>>>> Wayne@WaynesPets.com
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Peter Pan wrote on 1/21/2006 1:25 PM:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> I've been using Instant Ocean since I set up my 75 Gal. FOWLR tank in
    >>>>>> 2002
    >>>>>> and never had a problem. I've read that its not really a good idea to
    >>>>>> change
    >>>>>> salt, but if you were to change it, it was a very lengthy process
    >>>>>> with
    >>>>>> mixing your current salt with the new stuff until your completly
    >>>>>> changed
    >>>>>> over.( the process should take several months.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> My local LFS said that KENT was better for my tank then using Instant
    >>>>>> Ocean.
    >>>>>> What im wondering is; Is it better for his profits or is it really a
    >>>>>> better
    >>>>>> product for my tank?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Thanks
    >>>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
     
    Jaime R-S, Jan 31, 2006
    #71
  12. Peter Pan

    Pszemol Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "Jaime R-S" <jaime_rs@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:aPzDf.6670$fZ2.2403@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
    > Strange, very close to what is in every cytoplasm of everyone of your
    > cells...


    I would not consider it strange at all.
    The Life on Earth originated from the ocean...
     
    Pszemol, Jan 31, 2006
    #72
  13. Peter Pan

    Pszemol Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "Wayne Sallee" <Wayne@WayneSallee.com> wrote in message news:43DE54AF.4000502@WayneSallee.com...
    > Here is some data to have some fun with :)


    As you probably noticed, many of these elements are in the concentrations
    extremally hard or impossible to measure using standard lab equipment.
    There are probably 2-3 labs in USA which can measure each of
    these elements with reliable accuracy in a water sample...

    Second problem - nobody has any control to that precision level
    on what is in the tap water we add to the used salt mix...
    It is possible that the RO/DI filtered water will have more, lets say,
    phosphates than in the "natural sea water". Similar thing is with the
    food we add to the tank - seaweed is quite rich in microelements
    and when you put it to tank as food those microelements will circulate
    in the feces/living tissues and add to the total number in the mix.

    Third problem - if you take the sample of natural sea water from
    different parts of the World you will probably find that concentration
    of microelements varies quite strongly and depends on many
    factors like composition of rock formations in the area, how far
    is to the closest land, how intense are the freshwater run-offs from
    this land, what are prevailing sea currents in the area etc...
    I would bet any two samples of "natural sea water" would not be
    the same, and what you found in the table is just an estimate, guide.

    Fourth problem - science does not know the role of many micro-
    elements they can play in the living organisms, and how varying
    concentrations of such would affect certain group of animals...
    Maybe it is totaly not important if there is .002 or .008 of Vanadium ?

    My gut feeling tells me, that salt mix manufacturers do not controll
    many of these microelements and totaly count on impurites contained
    in major element salts they use. I am pretty sure they do not use
    chemicals at the reagent purity grade... The fact the "Certificate of
    Analysis" is not available upon request tells for itself... I hope they
    do not use "aggriculture grade" chemical compounds :)

    And I think we are back to my original response in this thread:
    If the IO is working for you do not change it - do not fix something which ain't broken!
    Nano-grams of micro-elements are not such important as proper
    aquarium maintenance (including water changes...)
     
    Pszemol, Jan 31, 2006
    #73
  14. Peter Pan

    Wayne Sallee Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    Pszemol wrote on 1/30/2006 10:44 PM:
    > I would not consider it strange at all.
    > The Life on Earth originated from the ocean...


    Evolution is a great for people that don't want to
    acknowledge the reality of the Creator.

    My computer evolved from a toaster oven.

    I tried to make some toast the other day, but even though
    the slots are of different sizes, I could not get a slice
    of bread in there. Obviously, an inferior evolutionary
    process. I'm sure it will become extinct soon.

    Get a chain, and cut every other link. Throw out all of
    the cut links. Take all of the intact links and arrange
    them so that they look pretty. You will then have a good
    working model of the theory of evolution.

    Actually, evolution is easy to prove. Simply gather some
    old bones from a variety of animals (your choice), and
    some human bones, and put them together so that they look
    half human, and then give it a name like Suzie.

    Scientist have recently discovered a new class of
    creatures down deep in the sea. They have classified them
    in the zoowacko group. They have 2 heads and 3 eyes on
    each head :)

    Zigg and Zagg, Martians from Venus (they were born on
    Mars, but now live on Venus), did a study of the
    evolutionary order on earth. They decided to first
    doccument the order of evolvement of machines, since it
    was what most interested them. It was quite interesting
    reading, and learning how the different machines evolved
    from each other, like cars, trucks, microwaves, television
    sets, laptops, PDA's, watches, cranes, excetera. If you do
    a search on the internet you might be able to find their
    report :)
    They still have a few missing links to figure out. After
    they get that study completely finished, they are going to
    do their next study on animals and it's evolvement on the
    great planet Earth. After both of those studies are
    completed and proven, they are to decide "which came
    first, the animals, or the machines?" Zigg and Zagg have
    pritty-much decided that the machines came first since
    they are more basic in construction than the animals, but
    that has yet to be proven.


    Wayne Sallee
    Wayne's Pets
    Wayne@WaynesPets.com
     
    Wayne Sallee, Jan 31, 2006
    #74
  15. Peter Pan

    Pszemol Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "Wayne Sallee" <Wayne@WayneSallee.com> wrote in message news:43DF9AEF.20405@WayneSallee.com...
    > Pszemol wrote on 1/30/2006 10:44 PM:
    >> I would not consider it strange at all.
    >> The Life on Earth originated from the ocean...

    >
    > Evolution is a great for people that don't want to
    > acknowledge the reality of the Creator.


    USA is still a free country...
    You are free to believe in any kind of Creator you like.
    It also means, I am free to not believe in any kind of Creator :)

    And let it be this way - no point going into heated debate.
    Evolutionism or creationism is not the subject of this newsgroup.
    You do not believe evolutionists are right? It is fine with me.

    Note: My previous remark was addressed to Jaime R-S, person who
    claims to be marine biologist and he finds it strange that living
    cell's protoplasm mineral content reflects the mineral content
    of natural sea water... What is wrong with this picture ? ;-)
     
    Pszemol, Jan 31, 2006
    #75
  16. Peter Pan

    David Zopf Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:drnhpj.98.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    > "Wayne Sallee" <Wayne@WayneSallee.com> wrote in message
    > news:43DF9AEF.20405@WayneSallee.com...
    >> Pszemol wrote on 1/30/2006 10:44 PM:
    >>> I would not consider it strange at all.
    >>> The Life on Earth originated from the ocean...

    >>
    >> Evolution is a great for people that don't want to
    >> acknowledge the reality of the Creator.

    >
    > USA is still a free country...
    > You are free to believe in any kind of Creator you like.
    > It also means, I am free to not believe in any kind of Creator :)
    >


    @Wayne and Pzemol:

    Please move it to talk.origins, if you feel compelled to continue.

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
     
    David Zopf, Jan 31, 2006
    #76
  17. Peter Pan

    Pszemol Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "David Zopf" <davidxzopf@snetx.net> wrote in message news:JmPDf.4475$ur7.2137@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
    > @Wayne and Pzemol:


    Pszemol, ok?

    > Please move it to talk.origins, if you feel compelled to continue.


    David,
    if you read my reply you would have probably noticed I did not
    continue this debate but tried to finish it - there was no need
    to ask us to shut up... :))))
     
    Pszemol, Jan 31, 2006
    #77
  18. Peter Pan

    David Zopf Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:drnqvb.56s.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    > "David Zopf" <davidxzopf@snetx.net> wrote in message
    > news:JmPDf.4475$ur7.2137@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
    >> @Wayne and Pzemol:

    >
    > Pszemol, ok?


    A mis-type, which my spell-checker oddly didn't catch ;-) Sorry.

    >
    >> Please move it to talk.origins, if you feel compelled to continue.

    >
    > David,
    > if you read my reply you would have probably noticed I did not
    > continue this debate but tried to finish it - there was no need
    > to ask us to shut up... :))))


    This particular debate topic has a habit of never finishing, as you probably
    know. :)

    And, there is no need to equate my post to an "ask us to shut up", as you
    say... I'm requesting you both to take it to a usenet hierarchy for which
    it is on-topic, not to stop the conversation entirely. (FWIW, I find myself
    in strong agreement with your perspective... not that that matters on whit.
    It's all still very much OT for r.a.m.reefs.)

    Regards,
    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
     
    David Zopf, Jan 31, 2006
    #78
  19. Peter Pan

    Pszemol Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "David Zopf" <davidxzopf@snetx.net> wrote in message news:k8QDf.4490$tb3.2736@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net...
    >>> @Wayne and Pzemol:

    >>
    >> Pszemol, ok?

    >
    > A mis-type, which my spell-checker oddly didn't catch ;-) Sorry.


    Time to update your spellchecker dictionary ;-)

    > I'm requesting you both to take it to a usenet hierarchy for which
    > it is on-topic, not to stop the conversation entirely.


    The conversations of this kind are pointless in my opinion.
    That is why I did not continue and will not. So - no worry ;-)
    EOT.
     
    Pszemol, Jan 31, 2006
    #79
  20. Peter Pan

    David Zopf Guest

    Re: What's the best SALT? IO facts !!

    "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
    news:drntu2.5n8.0@poczta.onet.pl...
    > "David Zopf" <davidxzopf@snetx.net> wrote in message
    > news:k8QDf.4490$tb3.2736@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net...
    >>>> @Wayne and Pzemol:
    >>>
    >>> Pszemol, ok?

    >>
    >> A mis-type, which my spell-checker oddly didn't catch ;-) Sorry.

    >
    > Time to update your spellchecker dictionary ;-)
    >

    You'll have to help me out... what do I put in the "definition" field?

    DaveZ
    Atom Weaver
     
    David Zopf, Jan 31, 2006
    #80
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