Death to my fishes

V

Vittoriovamp89

Newb Reefer
Hello folks! I have a question or 2 about my fish and their deaths. I currently have a 60gl, live rock, brine shrimp, hermits snails, and a few tag along inverts. Some pretty nice green Zoa's as well. I started my tank with 2 firefin's and they are doing awesome. Tank has been running since december. Everything else is living great as well. I even had a nice Anemnome until my power head slid down and sucked him up...sad face. The issue is any other fish i add seem to die within 72 hours. My levels are all good, temps are good so i just dont udnerstand. I tried a sweetlips, dead. A little wrasse....dead. Yellow tang....flushed. I am about to give up and just throw some damsels in and call it a day. The firefins are still going strong and I just added 2 clowns this weekend. Every time a fish dies I wait a month to try something else. I'm very confused. I feed them the mysis, and i have some pellets but I rarely use them since they like the mysis so much. Any ideas?
 
My initial guess is your powerhead shredded up your anemone and it caused issues for the fish that you added to the tank.

Couple of things here:

First off, your tank is way, way too small for a sweetlips, and it is hard to get them to do well long term. While easier to keep, a yellow tang is also not a wise stocking choice for a 60 gallon tank

In order to better help you figure out whats going on with your tank, read the following thread, and post the answers to the questions here. We need more information to help, the more the better, you cant provide too much

https://www.livingreefs.com/sticky-oh-noez-mah-fish-sick-threads-t34819.html
 
O the anemone was after the fish issues, and the fish I get are small, with trade in options from my local guy which I thought was nice. So when the sweet lips got bigger he would let me bring him down and fade him for something tank appropriate. Is this bad still? I will check ou the link now and reply as well.
 
Ok question on your questions. Is there a more accurate way to report the levels of ph, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites? All I have is that color chart which can be very tricky at times. The nitrates are my biggest issue because of the multiple tones of orange and yellow...it is very hard to tell if I am at a 5 or 10 .... So I was thinking maybe I donthave the best tools to test the quality? Also I got that shitty cheep salinity tester that sticks and always seems to be different every time I test .....
 
If they are dying quickly, your levels look okay, and you are waiting a decent period of time between additions, then I would guess it has something to do with the health of the fish when you get them or how you are acclimating them. What procedures are you using to acclimate? How long have they been at the store before you bring them home?
 
A few of the fish were bought from the store as they came in, he hadn't even unabated them yet. I usually do the cup of water every 15-20 minutes to acclimate and then add them after an hour. They look great for a day or 2 and then seem to swim sideways, circle around and just die. Like I said those fire fins have never had anything wron so it seemed weird...I would think they would be effected too.
 
Thats what I started to think, my amonia is pretty much on the zero end, my ph seems perfect i think 8.4 or something? I'm bad with remembering and im at work. The Nitrates seem to be the only thing that really changes drastically, and I try to keep that as close to zero as I can but it always seems to sit around that 5 range? Temp is 78-80 depeding on the day. I have a power head, carbon filter and one of those underwater fans just to flow water a bit more. Water changes i do every other week, about 5-10 gallons since I think i read i should be doing about 30% changes? Salinity is in the middle range of what the tester says, again i forget what it is but .024 rings a bell maybe? I also read that adding bacteria supplement will help keep the nitrates down. I have a little cup of that, but i have only added 2 tsp since set up. Maybe some of this information will help you guys tell me what im doing wrong. I have a fear that I am doing a lot wrong lol. The last tank i had was all luck 12 years ago, litterally just filled it up put fish in and let it ride and everything was perfect....so this time I need to try harder and know whaty im doing. Lastly, do you think it could be my tap water? I live in main so it is all natural spring water, no city water or anything. The guy at the store said he ran my water and everything seemed great. This is why i feel lost...
 
When fish are shipped from the wholesaler to the retail store, ammonia can build up in the bag. While the ammonia isn't very toxic when the bag is sealed, the levels rise pretty quickly once the bag is open and exposed to oxygen. If you are getting fish as they come in to the store from the wholesaler and then acclimating them the way you are I suspect they are being exposed to too much ammonia in the bag. I think a better procedure for acclimating would be (1) float the bag for 15 min to get the temp in the bag close to the temp in your tank, (2) dump out about half of the water in the bag (3) add about a shot glass worth of water into the bag from your DT every few minutes (5 minutes is recommended) until the water in the bag doubles (4) dump half the water from the bag again, (45 repeat step 3 (6) Once the water in the bag has doubled again then you can move the fish to the tank. Keep lights off in the tank for about 4 hours to minimize stress, and try to do the acclimating in a dimly lit room and keep tank lights off while the bag is floating in the water. The whole process should only take about 30 minutes. I think leaving the fish in the bag for an hour the way you have has been exposing it to ammonia. Also, I think you will find the fish hardier if you buy ones that have been at the LFS in their tanks for at least a few days to a week instead of buying them just as they come in. Adjusting to multiple tanks in a short period of time can be really stressful for fish and that might be doing them in.

One other question - how much live rock do you have in your tank?
 
You may be rushing the acclimation time as well. Depending on how different the chemistry levels are from the water in the bag to your tank, it may be worth it to set up a drip system for acclimating your new fish.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSnJjTEjWyU]How to Drip Acclimate Fish or Corals - YouTube[/ame]

If your inverts were suffering, I would think it was a tap water issue, but seeing as they are fine, Im leaning toward rushed acclimation.
 
not enough.... i have what i would consider 8 pieces of larger live rock and 2 smaller. I stacked them so that there is room to hide and swim around but it does not fill up my space by all means, it is so expensive I try to buy a piece per pay check just to not have to drop a few hundred at once. The guy i get it from charges like 5 bucks a pound i think, but he weighs it while it's still wet, not sure if thats per normal? I know I have a lot of rock to get still, and I'm not trying to stock filled yet, i just wanted a few to help the cylce go a little smoother and so the inverts have more to sift through and feed on.
 
To answer some of your questions:

For most of the basic tests the API liquid test kits are okay (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH, and Alkilinity) The shades of yellow are hard to distinguish but to be honest there is not much difference between 5-10 nitrates - especially where fish are concerned. 5 PPM of Nitrates is not nearly enough to be dangerous to fish. Are you sure that it is NiTRATE and not niTRITE?

As far as getting fish that will out grow your tank goes - you'll get different opinions. Most responsible reefers will tell you that it is not wise to purchase a fish that you know is not a good fit for your tank.

As far as the rock goes - you want 1-2 pounds per gallon. This really isn't optional. If you arent currently there - you need to stop purchasing livestock and start purchasing rock. This is the main source of filtration for your tank. If you already have some live rock, you can get the rest cheaper by buying 'dry' rock. Its usually $2-3 per pound.
 
I drip. Dump half the bag and start a siphon with air hose (black prevents mold) and tie a knot in the end til you get 1-3 drops per second depending on how sensitive the fish is. Do this until the water doubles, dump half and repeat.
 
+1 about drip acclimating, sickly fish from the lfs, and the Nitrates not being the cause.

I suggest you try a different LFS or order from a reputable online source like liveaquaria.com. I would never buy a fish from an LFS if I knew that the fish just arrived. It means they haven't been de-stressed or screened. Don't forget a LFS is still a business -- of course they'll sell you a fish that they should not sell. It keeps you coming back for more after their fish dies in your care. My lfs's here are super super nice...but it doesn't mean they haven't tried to sell me stuff I know I shouldn't have ;)

Drip acclimation will definitely help. I've drip acclimated for up to 3 hours. I've never lost a newly introduced fish in the 4 or so years I've been doing this. Do that for all your livestock, including inverts.

And nitrates aren't detrimental to fish, at least definitely not at that low level. One of the mods here had her fish living in 250ppm nitrates for a while LOL I've done the same. I'm not saying it's good (because it's not); but I'm saying 5ppm is not going to kill your fish.
 
Northstar, yes i am sure I did originally mess up these tests but right away realized the issue. I was told the nitrates above 5 was very bad so i have been scared of anything higher.

Wonton The guy i buy from is super nice, I never thought of the issue of buying new fish, in my head i thought it would be better since he hadnt unbagged them, i figured it would be less stress. He is cool he sells to me at cost and the last 2 that died he gave me free a free fish and then 50% off some of the rock i was buying.

Also the rock i have is "live rock" but theres not a whole lot living on it, I will post a picture tonight when I get home. There is a tube worm that ended up coming with one piece and a little bit of some other growth but not a ton. I would love to find somewhere to get some cheeper filler rock just to get this think up to where it needs to be. The only reason I keep trying to get a few more fish is because I was affraid the inverts would die because of lack of food? i was told they sift through the waste and with only 2 fire fins and 6 hermits i thought they might starve. I have never ordered from liveaquaria but i am on the site all the time. i will start using them for my purchases.
Is there a better site for rock? You guys are awesome btw, thank you for the help! I will put some pics up as soon as I can and maybe that will help shed some light on what I have and what might be some issues.
 
Vittoriovamp89 said:
Wonton The guy i buy from is super nice, I never thought of the issue of buying new fish, in my head i thought it would be better since he hadnt unbagged them, i figured it would be less stress. He is cool he sells to me at cost and the last 2 that died he gave me free a free fish and then 50% off some of the rock i was buying.
Click to expand...

It's awesome that he's nice, but again, he's still a business. Is he willing to give you store credit for the fish that died? If not, I point back to where I said that he's a business. My one LFS is awesome -- I'm on a first name basis with all the employees. I've spent hours in there talking and getting information. But in the end, I know they've tried to get me to buy unnecessary stuff (like Miracle Mud hehehe). If your store is willing to give you store credit, then great. If not, think again about them being a business in the end.
 
Gretch, he said he got it replaced free of charge plus purchase at price and 1/2 off rock.


Your rock is very much alive. Common misconception is that live rock always has lots of growth and visible life. And it does, but only in well established systems. 99% of the "live" is bacteria inside the pores and crevices. You can definetly use dry rock as it will soon become a thriving environment for all kinds of life.
 
I second Macrorocks. It's where I got all my dry rock from, nice porous pieces that were great for stacking and building with :). Also, you can always try finding some dry rock (or base rock it's sometimes called) on Craiglist. Even LR there. Just make sure you scrub it pretty well to get any dye off removed (Unless it's brought over in a bucket with a heater and is fully submerged. Best of luck too ya though! :)
 

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