Gfci

Piggy

Reef enthusiast
Got a question. I got my lights back so now I have a new problem. Everytime I plug them into the GFCI it blows it. I can plug in two of the three cords. If they're all plugged in it blows. I also had hubby check the outlet and all was good. I even tred a different outlet. The only way it works is if the lights are plugged directly into the outlet without the GFCI. I did find out it will work with the GFCI with a extension cord without the ground plug. So does anyone know what the problem is? I just don't like the idea of having them plugged in without the GFCI.
 
A light fixture with dual ballasts will not work with a GFCI. I have to have my T5 fixture hooked up directly to the wall outlet.

IMO, the lights would be the least of my worries being plugged into a GFCI being that they are not submersed in water. But, in my case, I would have to try to have my fixture fall into my tank.
 
GFCI will also trip if you have MH lighting plugged into it. The initial power surge to fire the bulbs will trip the circuit.
 
The lights did work with a GFCI before I got them fixed. I have these plugged into a reefkeeper. I checked to be sure it wasn't overloaded and it's not. So is it safe just to plug directly into the outlet?
 
should be fine. could be possible that the ground on your lights has gone bad? I know that has happened on one of my pumps. cant run it in the kitchen where its all gcfi but if plugged into a power strip that is plugged into gcfi it works just fine.
 
ok, let me just get on my soapbox for a second... sorry bout this...

a gfci is a device that measures the current flowing between the line((black)hot) and the neutral((white)almost ground) and ground.((green or bare)earth ground.

If the gfci detects an imballance, or more current flowing from the line that it does to the neutral, it assumes that something is wrong(there is a short to an external ground or to the internal ground) and shuts off the power.

I've seen these units rated as low as 4 and 5 milliamps, and react as fast as 0.08 of a second. this is for your protection, the theory being that if the unit is sensitive enough, and fast enough, that it will shut off the power before you can even feel anything, but definately before it has time to hurt you.

If plugging in more than one cord from a common fixture causes the gfci to trip, then the first thing i would question is if when they re-wired it, if they swapped the neutral and grounds. if you plug it in to a non protected outlet, it will still work, and you wont get shocked if you touch it, but this will cause the imballance that triggers the gfci. If removing the ground(by using an extension cord with no ground) resolves this issue, then this further reinforces my theory of neutral-ground wiring swap.

Now. IF, by some chance, the plug that you are plugging the afterthought gfci into is wired incorrectly, IE neutral-ground swap, or perhaps even neutral not connected, some appliances may still function, not cause a problem, but by plugging in the afterthought gfci can cause it to trip.

as far as having more than one ballast on a gfci causing it to trip, i'm not going to say it wont happen, but i've never seen it, nor can i find any supporting informaion that would lead me to believe that it would. If you can find some FACTS that support this, please enlighten me. Again, i'm not bashing you ssalty, i just dont know how it would cause it.

Further more, i also know of no reason at this time that having more than one gfci on a single circuit could cause them to internally trip. Especially if they are afterthought units, and not installed as an outlet.


oh, and just for clarity, yea, i'm an electrical engineer. I got me a degree and everything. :D

oh and alexander, its not the ground thats bad on your pump, its the neutral. plugging into most cheaper power strips ties the neutral and grounds together, thus by looking at it from the gfci's perspective, the power is going to the neutral, and not ground. I've actually tested this theory, using a multimeter, and an unplugged power strip(the distinction between power strip and surge protector is very important here) when you measure the resistance between the neutral and ground, you will find that they are shorted together...

</end soapboxrant>
 
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ok, let me just get on my soapbox for a second... sorry bout this...

...all sorts of smart stuff...

</end soapboxrant>

...Wut?? Hmm this is why I stay away from questions in the Lighting, Filtration and Other Equipment forum. My brain is not meant to comprehend such things!!
 
ok, let me just get on my soapbox for a second... sorry bout this...


If plugging in more than one cord from a common fixture causes the gfci to trip, then the first thing i would question is if when they re-wired it, if they swapped the neutral and grounds. if you plug it in to a non protected outlet, it will still work, and you wont get shocked if you touch it, but this will cause the imballance that triggers the gfci. If removing the ground(by using an extension cord with no ground) resolves this issue, then this further reinforces my theory of neutral-ground wiring swap.

Now. IF, by some chance, the plug that you are plugging the afterthought gfci into is wired incorrectly, IE neutral-ground swap, or perhaps even neutral not connected, some appliances may still function, not cause a problem, but by plugging in the afterthought gfci can cause it to trip.

Thank you for clarifying this for me. What you stated is what I did. Can I check the outlet with the that thing with the lights on it? (Brain freeze can't think of the name of the thing.) or would it be better to have hubby open it up and check it. If outlet checks out alright how do I fix the problem?
 
oh and alexander, its not the ground thats bad on your pump, its the neutral. plugging into most cheaper power strips ties the neutral and grounds together, thus by looking at it from the gfci's perspective, the power is going to the neutral, and not ground. I've actually tested this theory, using a multimeter, and an unplugged power strip(the distinction between power strip and surge protector is very important here) when you measure the resistance between the neutral and ground, you will find that they are shorted together...

</end soapboxrant>
way over my head. holy crap. I can only hope that one day i will understand exactly what this means :shock:
 
ok, first off, i'm going to put this disclamer in here... I am in no way responcible for any pain, loss, death, discomfort, or anything else, if you choose to follow the procedures outlined below. You do so at your own risk, and by attempting anything involving lethal power, you are acknowledging that you have the proper tools and training to do so.

actually, yes Piggy, if you have one of thoes plug look'n things with the 2 yellow and 1 red lights on it, that will tell you if the outlet is wired correctly. (actually it will tell you if that outlet all the way to the breaker is wired correctly)

You can get them at home depot for like 8-10 bucks i think.... i lost (or it grew legs and walked off) my last one of thoes, so i just use my multimeter now, but thats not something i would suggest unless you understand just what poking things into an outlet can do to you and your house if you goof it up.

the little pluggy thing is the safest.

if the plug checks out ok, then i would get an ohm meter(digital multimeter, diode checker) or what have you, and measure between the wide blade and the ground on each of the cords. see if they are connected to each other on each cord, and then check and see if all the grounds are tied together. then i would check between the ground on each plug, to the wide blade on each cord, and see if you have a connection there.

What you want to find:
all grounds are tied together and are tied to the housing of the unit in question.
no grounds make any connection to any of the neutrals (wide blade)
no neutrals make any connection to any other neutral or ground.

If any of the 3 above are not true, then i would open the light and make it true.

Just remember a couple things, you are dealing with things that can kill, so please, be carefull, think 3 times and act only once, and if in doubt, double check it. and unless you really know whats happening, never work on equipment that is plugged in; and if you must, then wear insulating shoes, and work with one hand in your back belt loop. The theory being that the current has a better chance of not going through your heart if you are shocked.

sorry to be morbid, and self protecting, but i'm not gonna get blamed for something i didnt personally screw up.. know what i mean?

if anyone has electrical or electronics questions, i'll do my best to help.

whats the matter alexander, didnt stay at the holiday in express last night? Just kidding, not attacking, just trying to make a funy.

Biff, nice edit, i got a good laugh outta that one... and theres no reason you cant understand this stuff, or anyone else for that matter, you just have to want to understand, and then be presented with the material in a manner that makes it make sence to you. I regularly teach people about electricity and electronics by using references to water in pipes, bends, valves, kinks in the garden hose, that kinda stuff, and most everyone gets it right away...

Just as an example... your garden hose, if it gets a kink in it, what happens? the flow slows down, so that kink is like a resistor. the pressure from the spiggot is still the same, theres just less flow, the pressure is the voltage, and the gal/hour is the amperage. how much kink there is in the hose, is the value of the resistor. more kink= more resistance, like going from 1k to 10k. the spiggot itself is a pot, potentiometer, or variable resistor, you can vary the amount of flow from one amount to another. a ball valve could be thought of like a switch, on or off(ok dont bust my balz here, yea i know you can meter the flow with a ball valve, but for the example, lets agree that it acts in only 2 positions, on and off)

see, not so complicated.
 
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I have the same fixture as you piggy and by design the fixture will likely trip most GFCI circuits due to a leakage current. Below is a response from the owner of Aquatinics on his RC forum. I've seen this question pop up a few times in his RC forum so I never bothered plugging my fixture into the GFCI circuit. I'm too lazy to retype his recent response to somebody asking a similar question so I copied it and pasted below:

Tom on RC forum said:
Lighting ballasts have what's called "leakage current" measured in the milliamps. GFCI circuits measure the difference between the incoming and outgoing current. When the difference is above the threshold it trips. As more ballasts are turned on the "leakage current" adds ups to the point it goes above the threshold of the GFCI and trips it. This is why when you have two switches on it is still below the threshold, but three goes over. Most GFCI are not designed to work with electrical devices such as lighting ballasts. There are a few GFCI plugs out there that have a high threshold for the leakage current. Otherwise your best bet is to use a non-GFCI circuit and make sure you have a drip loop in the power cord. Just to let you know, the fixture is fully grounded.

If you have any other questions please feel free to contact me.

Thank you,

Tom
Aquactinics
203-234-9286
 
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well, ok, but where is this leakage current leaking to? the grounded housing? ok, i guess i can see that, high freq, high voltage, would have a tendancy to want to leak out of the wires, skin effect and all, so ok, yea i can see it happeneing in a grounded housing.

so then, if there is enough leakage between the 3 plugs on her light, then why not just use 3 sepperate gfci's? I've still not seen any evidence that more than one on a circuit would cause them to trip
 
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well, ok, but where is this leakage current leaking to? the grounded housing? ok, i guess i can see that, high freq, high voltage, would have a tendancy to want to leak out of the wires, skin effect and all, so ok, yea i can see it happeneing in a grounded housing.

so then, if there is enough leakage between the 3 plugs on her light, then why not just use 3 sepperate gfci's? I've still not seen any evidence that more than one on a circuit would cause them to trip


:shock: I hope this was not direceted to me because by no means am I anywhere close to being able to have an intelligent conversation with you about this.

I'm sure Tom over on the RC Forum could explain this way better than me.
 
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