Help!

[RHillman]

We set up our first marine tank in February. it is a 70 gallon tank and also has a sump underneath with filter, protein skimmer, UV steriliser etc.

All seemed to go well - the tank matured well and quickly - our water parameters have always seemd pretty much spot on.

In there at the moment we have a sand sifting starfish aa couple of turbo snails - 3 others have been eaten. a few hermit crabs. Corals: A zoa, leather, cauliflour type coral and a lovely green carpety thing i can't remember the name of!

Up til a month ago we had 2 clown fish, a dottyback, a blue cheek goby and a blue streak cleener wrasse. We used to have a red firefish but we think he was bullied and we lost him.

A month ago we went on holiday and left the tank with an auto feeder. When we got back after 6 days the tank was an utter mess with the walls caked in algae. The clowns had changed colour noticeably with the bigger presumably female being almost black - her orange bits were VERY dark and the smaller cown was quite pale. We gave it a thorough clean which no-one took particularly well to. we scooped as much 'stuff' out of the water as we could but it did take a few hours to clear the water. A few of the corals die back quite a bit.

When we got back we noticed the Goby was very thin - when we had tested the auto feeder we noticed he did not go up to feed and so were worried about him when we were away. About ten days after getting back he disappeared and we lost him. 2 days later the cleaner wrasse went missing and we saw it being eaten by the crabs. The wrasse had shown no signs of ill health but was inseperable from the Goby - quite literally - so we wondered if that was the reason he went.

During this the Parameters of the water were all fine - though we did not test the water on return from holiday until it had been cleaned and the water changed which was in hindsight possibly foolish - but we were putting all our efforts into getting everything clean again.

A few days ago I saw our smaller clownfish struggling - he was sitting in one place in the tank - away from flow and his mouth was contantly opening and shutting. we turned the pump off for a bit to give him a rest from, the currents and left the tank like this overnight. He seemed to perk up a little and his fins which were held in close to his body perked up a bit but he would not be enouraged to eat. We tried adding immuvit and lipovit to boost his immune system yesterday but not eating it had no effect.

Last night I noticed he was skinnier than ever and you could almost see his bones coming through his skin. I took the decision to take him out - we had previously been advised that this would stress him even more so to leave him in if possible - and left him dripping through to the quarantine tank over night. I did not think he would make it through the night and I was correct.

We are kind of at the end of our tether and don't know where to go next. Our nitrites, nitrates and ammonia are all at 0, pH 8-8.2. Our alkalinity test is not working and the Red sea people have recently announced that there is a problem, but as the pH is fine and we have lots of coralline gro we don't think this is a problem. Our refractometer has been tested today and was a tad high but only at 1.027. We hae added RO to rectify this this evening

We have had one person advise us to test the Oxygen - but when we went to Dobbies today to get an oxygen testing kit they did not have one and told no point. We were also advised to use a Poly filter which might look for other impurities in the water - however when we went to Dobbies we were told this would be a waste of money - but not given any other advice.

We don't know where to turn next other than giving up! We love our fish and don't want to be putting fish into a tank for them just to die - even the natural life cycle stuff like crabs eating snails etc we find quite upsetting.

To clarify we only have a female clown left - looking very healthy and a dottyback whos fins i think are starting to look a bit raggy. She had a fungal thing a while back but that seemed to pass. She is eating well.


Sorry for the long post - we would be so pleased for any advice. :frustrat:

 

[FishyReef]

Auto feeders are notorious for malfunctioning, often dumping everything at once. My guess is that yours malfunctioned early on during your vacation, dumping all the food and creating a large amount of waste and nitrates and phosphates that fed the algae growth you saw when you returned, and unfortunately also leaving your fish w/o food for the majority of the time you were gone. Aside from that, leaving your tank w/o being topped off with fresh RO water for that long will result in salinity rising, possibly to dangerous levels. The cleaner wrasse only feeds on parasites and often don't live long in tanks (and their life span is only appx 1-2 years anyway), so that loss unfortunately inevitable. Nitrates and algae growth are hard on corals and inverts, and sand sifting starfish often don't find enough food to eat, leading them to die in the sand and cause a nitrate spike - not sure if he's still alive or not, but if he is you might want to return it to the store. As for the shrimp, are you sure it died and didn't just molt? If it did die, it was likely nitrate related. As for the clown, leaving the pumps off in your tank overnight and then drip acclimating in a bucket was probably the culprit - pumps can only be off for about 4 hours before your fish and corals start to die due to lack of oxygen, and drip acclimating something should never take longer than 2 hours, especially w/o live rock to process the ammonia. I don't really know of a test for oxygen, but as long as you have a powerhead pointed at the top of the tank and can see a good ripple across the water then your tank should be oxygenated enough. Bottom line is that tank crashes suck, but hang in there and you'll get your tank back in no time. A few questions to help us point you in the right direction: Are you using testing strips or a liquid testing kit? What do you have for powerheads/flow in your tank? How much live rock do you have? What type of food are you feeding?

 

[Cathic]

Ive had zero circulation in my tank for 4 days with no loss, I would look elsewhere for the culprit instead of low oxygen levels. I'd say the autofeeer, higher salinity + nitrates.

 

[RHillman]

HiThanks for your response.
How often should we top up withfresh RO then? We tend only to do it once a week?
I think we are a bit too trusting with our LFS - they recommended the goby and the wrasse whereas our fish man who is further away did say they were both fairly impossibly to keep.
Sorry we still have all our shrimps in tact - apart from one crystal shrip we lost (forgot about those) and the starfish seems quite happy too. We did lose aa sally lightfoot crab - we have ummed and ahhed about whether it was merely a shedding but have not seen it for over a month now so fairly sure that died somehow.
Sorry it was the powerhead we left off rather than the pump - never know what to call that!
Drip acclimating = thanks for this info as I had always thought the longer you do it over the better - certainly most of our fish have acclimated over wel lthan over two hours - must change this.
We have been discussing the powerhead and I think it needs pointing up a bit more as there is not such a great ripple over the top - will do this in the morning - thanks
Iam using the Red Sea Test kit which is a liquid testing kit
We have one powerhead in the tank which our fish man reckons is fine for what we have in there at the moment - I think it is quite a biggish one - he has said when we have more corals then we might need a second
We feed frozen mysis and brineshrimp once a day....is this too often?
How much Live rock - a fair whack - can't remember how much weight wise off the top of my head...if I said 20 kilos? I remember it was £180 per an amount (I'm thinking 10 kilos but maybe it was more)- we were sold one and did not think that was enough so bought another. Photo here of layout if this helps: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...96262956.84247.370898756287340&type=3&theater
Thanks again

 

[RHillman]

Thanks Cathic - nitrates are at zero and always have been apart from possibly the week we were away. I definitely need to lok into having someone to come in and look after then whilst we are away again. We have two chromis in quarantine at the mo - they've been there a week - so have a few weeks to go - but we are so nervous about adding anything else to the tank.

 

[RHillman]

Fishyreef - so to clarify - we've only lost fish, a crab, some eaten snails and a crystal shrimp. A couple of corals died back a bit after cleaning after holiday. everything else seems fairly healthy.

 

[Salty B]

Powerhead...."I think it is quite a biggish one" LOL! I bet its not nearly enough. You are going to want more turnover. 20-30 times your tank size per hour. Myself, I like a lot more than that. So on 70 gallons you'll want at least 1400 GPH. 2000/2500 would be better IMO.

"How much Live rock - a fair whack"...another LOL! The industry standard for reef tanks is 1-2 pounds per gallon. So for you 35/40 kilos would be a good target to aim for.

"We have had one person advise us to test the Oxygen" 90% of all O2 exchange happens at the surface. With some flow rippling the surface, should be all you need. The flip side to that....is being scotland. I assume your climate is as cold as here in Maine, with the house buttoned up tight to save heat, can create high indoor CO2. Something to think about.

Test kits can be a touchy subject. It is very possible to have lots of algae and the test kits read 0. The algae can feed of nitrites/nitrates/phosphates/silicates etc. as fast as they are being produced so it thrives while the test give a false reading of 0 see what I mean? Plain and simple....the algae needs nutrients to survive, so they are present.

And lastly....dead snails...my money's on blue leg hermit crabs! Seen it too many times. Do you have any of those hermits?

Hope some of that helps.

 

[RHillman]

Powerhead: OK so we need another - our fish man said we did not until we had more corals. Currently we turn over 10 times an hour - so presumably you don't feel this is enough. Do we leave the current one in and get an extra?

Live Rock: Sorry for the fair whack!! My hubby who is the figure man had gone to bed. - We think we have just under 40 kilos in there so hopefully that is ok!

Oxygen/CO2 - I'm not sure we are quite as chilly as you!! and I always have a window open in the house overnight and most of the time during the day too - whatever the weather.....would that make you change your mind? though the window is upstairs and the tank downstairs.

Test kits can be a touchy subject. It is very possible to have lots of algae and the test kits read 0. The algae can feed of nitrites/nitrates/phosphates/silicates etc. as fast as they are being produced so it thrives while the test give a false reading of 0 see what I mean? Plain and simple....the algae needs nutrients to survive, so they are present.

So we have algae - we must have these things going on in the tank - where do we go from here? How do we get rid of the algae?

And lastly....dead snails...my money's on blue leg hermit crabs! Seen it too many times. Do you have any of those hermits?
Yes blue hermits! are we better with red ones?

Thanks for all your help - we do want to get this sorted. guess what is confusing us at the moment is if our test kit is reading 0 for everything it should be reading 0 for how do we get accurate results...know what is going on?

Our dottyback's fins are looking very scraggy - though he seems to be eating fine. Yesterday we saw him taking mouthfuls of sand and spitting it out - goby--styley. never seen him do this before...any ideas why? Is it ok to be doing this?

Thanks again

 

[cvcdrk]

What test kit are you using?

Algae cycles are natural and usually fine. You just have to keep it under control through nutrient control and with your CUC. Do you have a solid CUC?

 

[RHillman]

What test kit are you using?

Algae cycles are natural and usually fine. You just have to keep it under control through nutrient control and with your CUC. Do you have a solid CUC?

Hi I am using the Red Sea Test Kit,. We started off with a much bigger clean up crew and went to restock the other day but ws told 4 or 5 hermit crabs and 2 cleaner shrimps was enough....Do you think it is? it seems bizarre that when we first put CUC in the tank we had 10 hermits, 5 turbo snails, 2 cleaner shrimps, a sand sifting starfish and 2 sally lightfoot crabs. Now all we have is about 4 hermits, 2 snails, 2 cleaner shrimps and the starfish. Would you advise getting some more? And if so what?
Thanks

 

[wontonflip]

I would have to think that the auto-feeder was the culprit as well.

So let's backtrack....in general, you should top off everyday otherwise your salinity will creep up (salt does not evaporate), and when you top off with fresh water, it causes salinity to drop off rapidly, which is also not a good thing. Any salinity swings more than .001/day can shock fish. Some of us use an auto-top off system. If you have a sump, depending on the setup, the return area is usually your indicator of low water levels. If you draw a line or put a piece of tape on the outside so you know where your water line should always be, that will be where you have to keep your water at.

What are you feeding the fish? Did you use flakes in your auto feeder? Flakes tend to be high in phosphates, and I see you did no test for phosphates, which could also cause fishy problems. Usually algae outbreaks are caused by phosphates or nitrates. Since your nitrates were 0, I would check for phosphates. Switch to frozen, if all you are feeding is dry flakes or pellets. Pellets are better than flakes anyway, if you had to pick.

And you're right that the LFS could be feeding you bits of misinformation. They are a business, after all.

Also, are all of your corals in tact? Some, if they die or get sick, release toxins, which could kill fish,.

Next time you go on vacation, can't you have a neighbor check on your tank? I hire neighborhood teens that I trust to come in and feed my fish once a day. I pre-measure all the food, and do any maintenance before I leave, so literally, unless they put many pre-measured packs on purpose, they cannot accidentally overfeed the fish. They don't even need to top off because of the ATO. Make it as simple as possible for pet sitters.

 

[RHillman]

I would have to think that the auto-feeder was the culprit as well.

So let's backtrack....in general, you should top off everyday otherwise your salinity will creep up (salt does not evaporate), and when you top off with fresh water, it causes salinity to drop off rapidly, which is also not a good thing. Any salinity swings more than .001/day can shock fish. Some of us use an auto-top off system. If you have a sump, depending on the setup, the return area is usually your indicator of low water levels. If you draw a line or put a piece of tape on the outside so you know where your water line should always be, that will be where you have to keep your water at.

Thank you for your detailed response. OK will start doing this.

What are you feeding the fish? Did you use flakes in your auto feeder? Flakes tend to be high in phosphates, and I see you did no test for phosphates, which could also cause fishy problems. Usually algae outbreaks are caused by phosphates or nitrates. Since your nitrates were 0, I would check for phosphates. Switch to frozen, if all you are feeding is dry flakes or pellets. Pellets are better than flakes anyway, if you had to pick.

We feed the fish frozen brine and mysis shrimp. We only used flakes when we went on holiday - but we have already discussed asking one of the kids on the street to do it whilst we are away - and measure out as you suggest prior to leaving. May I ask how much you suggest paying them? Will go and buy a phosphates test kit today.

And you're right that the LFS could be feeding you bits of misinformation. They are a business, after all. .

Possibly - though both have advised us against purchases or underestimated the amount of stuff we need rather than tried selling us things we don't need....

Also, are all of your corals in tact? Some, if they die or get sick, release toxins, which could kill fish,. .

I think the corals ar all fine - as I said a few died back and got a bit stressed when we did the huge clean after returning from holiday. They all seem fine with the possible exception of the cauliflour which does not seem to be coming out as much as it was. Would a photo help??

Next time you go on vacation, can't you have a neighbor check on your tank? I hire neighborhood teens that I trust to come in and feed my fish once a day. I pre-measure all the food, and do any maintenance before I leave, so literally, unless they put many pre-measured packs on purpose, they cannot accidentally overfeed the fish. They don't even need to top off because of the ATO. Make it as simple as possible for pet sitters.

Presume to have the auto top up we somehow need to connect the RO unit permanently to the tank? Not sure this would be very easy...or is there another way. the only other thing we thought of was is the RO unit working properly - but I think if it was not we would have bigger problems than we currently have. The water does come through much speedier than it said it should - but we do have a really strong water flow in the house. Could this stop it from filtering properly?

LFS suggested changing the bulb in the UV steriliser - it is about 6 months old - do you think it might need changing or should last for longer than this??

Thanks again

 

[wontonflip]

We feed the fish frozen brine and mysis shrimp. We only used flakes when we went on holiday - but we have already discussed asking one of the kids on the street to do it whilst we are away - and measure out as you suggest prior to leaving. May I ask how much you suggest paying them? Will go and buy a phosphates test kit today.

If you've been doing water changes, chances are your phosphates are going down anyway. Really, they're useless for everyday checking because algae eats up phophates, giving you a reading of 0, even though they are present. It's when they are detectable that you should worry -- cuz it means there is so much phosphates in there that the algae can't keep up with it. But it would be good to have for peace of mind.

You're in Scotland? I don't know how much you should pay....when I pay my sitters, it includes taking care of my 2 dogs LOL If they're teenagers, maybe $5/visit (I guess around $3.80 in euros - so make it an even 5 euros), especially if all they have to do is pop in food once a day. It really depends on you. I pay my sitters well because it makes them want to really earn it. I also have my LFS on stand by in case of flooding or other catastrophes.

Possibly - though both have advised us against purchases or underestimated the amount of stuff we need rather than tried selling us things we don't need....

I have 2 great LFS's near me and both give the best advice and don't typically steer me wrong...although a couple of times, when I first started, one of them did sell me a couple of things that weren't absolutely necessary (Miracle Mud LOL...expensive stuff!), but overall, give sound advice. I never go in without some basic knowledge of a fish or equipment.

I think the corals ar all fine - as I said a few died back and got a bit stressed when we did the huge clean after returning from holiday. They all seem fine with the possible exception of the cauliflour which does not seem to be coming out as much as it was. Would a photo help??

I'm no coral expert (my tank is fowlr). But if you have concerns about their apperance, post pics so others can chime in :)

Presume to have the auto top up we somehow need to connect the RO unit permanently to the tank? Not sure this would be very easy...or is there another way. the only other thing we thought of was is the RO unit working properly - but I think if it was not we would have bigger problems than we currently have. The water does come through much speedier than it said it should - but we do have a really strong water flow in the house. Could this stop it from filtering properly?

I know a few on here who have it hooked directly to their RO Unit. Mine is not -- it is pumped via a dosing pump from an RODI reservoir. I have an ATO switch in the tank for that. This way, even if the switch fails, it will only flood as much as my reservoir ;)

LFS suggested changing the bulb in the UV steriliser - it is about 6 months old - do you think it might need changing or should last for longer than this??

Not sure if it will change anything because an old bulb in the sterilizer will only promote algae growth where the light hits. Since your tank is covered in algae, it is probably from the auto-feeder. How old are you tank lights? If they're old, then those could also be the culprit, and a coincidence that they got old while you were on vacation. I don't have a UV sterilizer, so I don't know how often to change those bulbs.

By the way, do you have a canister filter hooked up? I know your nitrates are 0, but canister filters can trap all those flakes as well. Make sure to clean it out if you have one. They're best left off the saltwater system anyway.

 

[RHillman]

By the way, do you have a canister filter hooked up? I know your nitrates are 0, but canister filters can trap all those flakes as well. Make sure to clean it out if you have one. They're best left off the saltwater system anyway.

We have a filter sock in the sump which we change and clean every time we do a water change?? Is that the same thing??

Would you suggest fish are still fed every day whilst we are on holiday or do you think they would be fine with every second day? Some on here only seem to feed once every second day anyway?

Thanks

 

[cvcdrk]

Looks to me like your algae is just a result of a weaker clean up crew. You should definitely have more snails and things.
I personally don't think hermit crabs have a place in a reef system. I find them to be more destructive than helpful. they are interesting to watch, though.

I would look into reefcleaners.com Get a package that is rated for HALF the size of your tank (they will send you tons of extras).

Red Sea test kits have a bad reputation, too, as being next to useless when it comes to accuracy. I have never used them myself so this is all things I've read online, but just figured I'd let you know. On the other hand, ELOS and Salifert make test kits that are pricey but almost universally accepted as the best for non-professional hobbyists.

As for UV sterilizers....next to worthless in my opinion. It's your tank so do whatever you want but if it were me I'd get rid of it now.

For feeding...your fish can go a couple days without food. It's good to have someone look in on them every couple of days and if they can feed that's fine. It won't hurt them to go a few days without food, though, if need be.

 

[FishyReef]

I think the flake food and the auto-feeder were likely the original source of nutrients that led the algae problems. However, as cvcdrk has mentioned, you also have a weak clean up crew. I doubt reefcleaners ships to Scotland - but if you look on their website it should at least give you an idea of how many snails, etc., you should have. You really need a variety of snails, etc., as they have different appetites for different things and the combo of them will help keep your tank clean. For a 70g tank you are seriously under numbered for a clean up crew! As for top-off, I just fill 1g jugs with RO/DI water and then add about 1 jug a day to my sump to keep my water level constant. I have a line drawn on the sump and just aim to have it right around that mark - which in my case is about 1g a day of fresh RO/DI. I don't bother with an auto top-off device at this point because I can just as easily dump a jug of water in the sump once a day!

 

[RHillman]

Looks to me like your algae is just a result of a weaker clean up crew. You should definitely have more snails and things.
I personally don't think hermit crabs have a place in a reef system. I find them to be more destructive than helpful. they are interesting to watch, though.

I would look into reefcleaners.com Get a package that is rated for HALF the size of your tank (they will send you tons of extras).

Red Sea test kits have a bad reputation, too, as being next to useless when it comes to accuracy. I have never used them myself so this is all things I've read online, but just figured I'd let you know. On the other hand, ELOS and Salifert make test kits that are pricey but almost universally accepted as the best for non-professional hobbyists.

As for UV sterilizers....next to worthless in my opinion. It's your tank so do whatever you want but if it were me I'd get rid of it now.

For feeding...your fish can go a couple days without food. It's good to have someone look in on them every couple of days and if they can feed that's fine. It won't hurt them to go a few days without food, though, if need be.

Interesting - would you take the hermits out then? I do love watching them fight over shells - but now I've seen it a few times it's not quite so fascinating!! Will take alook at that site - thanks.

Thanks all for thetest kit info. I bought a salifert phosphate test today so will see what that says.

Wil lthe UV steriliser do anything bad??? not worth just leaving it considering we have it - drilled to the back of our cabinet!?!

I've taken some pics of the tank and will upload later! Wondering if the dottyback has fin rot....? would that account for scraggy whiteish fins?

Again thank you

 

[cvcdrk]

You can leave the UV sterilizer if you really want. It's your tank.
It will kill all free-floating organisms, though (if its properly set up). That includes all the good stuff we WANT to be free floating in our reef systems. It also isn't THAT effective against the parasites and other fish disease that they're commonly sold to fix or used to fix.

To me it's just not worth the money and the pain of losing everything good that or moves through the water column. If it's a hassle to remove it, maybe just shut it off?

Like I said...your tank your rules...that just my $.02.

 

[fc_uk]

Being new to marine aquariums myself I am not going to be able to add much to this conversation, but I can give information on that UV sterilizer/filter (adding filter now because that is what I am used to calling them and will probably slip into that. I mean a sterilizer as you called it).

As cvcdrk pointed out, a UV sterilizer won't distinguish between good and bad. However, a UV will ONLY kill single celled organisms, which is why cvcdrk feels it is bollox that these units kill parasites and other non-algae disease (and the poster would again be correct in feeling that way). That goes back to the late 70's load of trash that saw UV lamps installed in classrooms across the states to help reduce germs spread in schools. Notice how much that is done anymore? Right ... colds et al are not single celled organisms.

That's where I am going to have to rely on other people regarding if the good stuff in the water is a single celled organism. If given the names, I can assist with that. However, I would guess that some are, hence the reluctance to run one.

Speaking from experience (with outdoor ponds) about the only thing a UV filter is good for is green algae, which you say you have. However, a UV filter won't touch sting or hair algae. What this basically translates into is unless your water is actually green, then the UV is not doing you a bit of good.

When I had a pond that always turned into pea soup, a UV would clean it up in about a week, but again that was only for the single celled algae responsible for turing water green. If your water also is tinted green, then I would run it until the water clears up assuming what is below. It's a short term evil for a greater good of getting rid of the green water.

As an aside, most UV bulbs are rated to be effective for 6-9 months. For a pond in the northern US where I used to have a pond, that meant you change the bulb annually because sometime during the winter it will become ineffective.

With UV filters, you also have to be careful of what most people inaccurately call frosting of the glass around the bulb. It's not really frosting, it's more like the more technical term of solarizing the cell. Anyway, this also means if you notice the glass quartz start to take on a yellow color, then you need to change out the glass as that colorization makes the UV bulb ineffective.

 

[little_fish]

+1 to fc_uk

This exactly why we dont recommend them. Nice write up