lightcs4
Loving to learn
So, are they really any cheaper? I purchased a Montgomery Wards dishwasher before my wife and I had kids (figured we wouldn't be able to after the kids came along). I was out replacing that unit less than two years later.
Hyposalinity
- Thread starter lightcs4
- Start date
So, are they really any cheaper? I purchased a Montgomery Wards dishwasher before my wife and I had kids (figured we wouldn't be able to after the kids came along). I was out replacing that unit less than two years later.
:bounce: They sold enough substandard stuff to drive all but one of the LFS's out of business. People are buying doodoo and acting like they are getting candy, regardless of the fact that it is mostly sour candy not sweet. When Petco can sell their fish faster than it dies you know the customers are crazy. I can go in there on any given day and see fish with obvious Ick listed as quarantined and the minute the spots drop they sell them all. I learned a very long time ago to not buy a fish the same day I first see it from any LFS tank. Obviously a lot of people will. I have, however, waited while LFS people opened the boxes of a new shipment and bought fish and corals in their shipping bags, before they got near any store tanks. :^:
Bifferwine
I am a girl
My LFS is great, and I've bought 99% of the corals/inverts in my tank from them, and 100% of my fish from them. I have never quarantined any of my corals and have never had any sort of a pest problem. My LFS is very careful about dipping/treating all new animals that come into the store and not selling them right away, and very few stores are as good about that. Heck, they have a policy that if you spot any aiptasia in any of their sale, display or live rock tanks, that you get a free frag of your choice. The store is spotless.
In spite of that, I tend to believe that there are two types of reefers: those that dip their corals and those that will dip their corals. For now, since nothing has happened to me, I am in the "will dip" category, but I know logically that it's only a matter of time...
In spite of that, I tend to believe that there are two types of reefers: those that dip their corals and those that will dip their corals. For now, since nothing has happened to me, I am in the "will dip" category, but I know logically that it's only a matter of time...
My preventtve medicine is a watchfu eye, not unneccessary use of chemicals. I use chemiacls when needed and have no reservation about using them when there is reason. I also do not use, chemi-pur, phosphate remover, or carbon with out duecause, except for when introducing new rockor livesand where I always use ferric hydroxide as I have always found them to leach or dump phosphated. I have, over the years had less than a half a dozen new corals that needed iodine dips, and therefore do not subject new corals to them unless needed. There is no reason to not quarantine, it is the safest, wisest preventative health measure a reefer has at their disposal. That and frquent, routine, regular, partial water changes.
lightcs4
Loving to learn
I have not been successful in finding any sites that give details regarding what corals can be freshwater dipped and which ones must not be dipped. Does anyone have any references they could point me to?
Also, if I decide to quarantine corals instead or in conjunction with, can I do so in a 3 gal tank with a power head (I have an empty one)? I can put some egg crate in the bottom. If so, what type of lights would work for something so small? I would rather take the time of quarantine than have problems later.
Also, if I decide to quarantine corals instead or in conjunction with, can I do so in a 3 gal tank with a power head (I have an empty one)? I can put some egg crate in the bottom. If so, what type of lights would work for something so small? I would rather take the time of quarantine than have problems later.
RyanG
Reef enthusiast
I think a 3 gallon tank would make an awesome coral QT. You wouldnt need a large powerhead at all a POS penguin would probably be fine. Im a lighting retard so Im no help there at all.
lightcs4
Loving to learn
Thanks for the quick reply! I'm in the same boat regarding the lights. Anyhow, what is a POS? I have seen the term used a few times but haven't been able to figure it out. I understand HOB, but not POS.
Thanks.
reeffreak
Reef pro
Sorry,I don't know of any good coral disease and treatment reference website.Maybe they have something over on Wet Web Media.I only freshwater dip zoanthua and palythoas.I've heard of people freshwater dipping acroporas but I haven't tried that yet.Some of harder to keep corals,like gonioporas and alveoporas will get an iodine dip before introduction.
I don't quarantine corals myself but I do at times set up my 10g. to put a coral in for observation purposes.You will find very few people who quarantine corals for long periods(like 6 weeks).Some corals could be kept under normal outputs for sometime like zoas but others like acros can't.IMO,a couple weeks in QT will be okay for most corals if your using just standard lights.
POS=piece of shit.
I don't quarantine corals myself but I do at times set up my 10g. to put a coral in for observation purposes.You will find very few people who quarantine corals for long periods(like 6 weeks).Some corals could be kept under normal outputs for sometime like zoas but others like acros can't.IMO,a couple weeks in QT will be okay for most corals if your using just standard lights.
POS=piece of shit.
lightcs4
Loving to learn
Ahh ... POS - nope, just don't talk that way:D. But at least I'll know what people mean from now on.
RyanG
Reef enthusiast
Thats why I use the acronym!:mrgreen: I used that term refering to the Penguin because I bought one in a pinch from a freshwater LFS and that is exactly what it is. The doggone thing only came with a mounting bracket for one suction cup, not even the black heavy duty ones. just the flimsy clear ones. Live and learn.
lightcs4
Loving to learn
Good to know what you think of the skimmer. I am leaning toward the Octopus skimmers for the future. However, I like knowing what "real life" experiences have been for other individuals.
Most people who use quarantining with all new incoming corals have systems in which they will eventually be putting the corals that can have many thousands of dollars worth of corals in them. That and many people end up putting great value on any life forms they have kept for any length of time and find coral quarantine a sane, safe answer to preventing disease and parasite problems in there tanks. Anything that came from a tank where Ich tomites dropped off the fish in the tank can carry in the Ick parasite, the tomites can fall on coral, live rock, sand and with little effort become water borne. Then they hatch and become free swimming for several days. And that is just the fish parasite Ick aspect reason to quarantine coral. There is also the flat worm and other coral problems and more reasons. So the practice is economical and yet is not really not so inconvenient and can do much to prevent a loss of large sums of money and treasured live critters lives.
A simple twist type power compact bulb made to screw in to a standard light bulb socket would work just fine on the small tank. Some pack rat types might even still have one of the old aquarium hoods that took a standard type bulb.
A simple twist type power compact bulb made to screw in to a standard light bulb socket would work just fine on the small tank. Some pack rat types might even still have one of the old aquarium hoods that took a standard type bulb.
lightcs4
Loving to learn
I guess I now have my new coral purchasing plan :D.
My thoughts on how much is spent on corals is fairly simple ... take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves. I would rather quarantine a coral and keep the tank happy than risk loosing an existing $20 coral or $30 fish in the DT. It is extremely unlikely I'll every have thousands invested into corals, but I will take care of any investment I make in the tank.
The 3 gal. tank has a 15 watt hood. I'll see if there are PCs that can be used. If not, I'll get another hood or rip out the socket and put in a normal socket. Either way should be pretty cheap.
By the way, all visible parasites have dropped off. I'm down to seven weeks before I introduce the first coral. I'll actually purchase it in a few weeks, then quarantine it while waiting for the DT to finish the hypo treatment.
My thoughts on how much is spent on corals is fairly simple ... take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves. I would rather quarantine a coral and keep the tank happy than risk loosing an existing $20 coral or $30 fish in the DT. It is extremely unlikely I'll every have thousands invested into corals, but I will take care of any investment I make in the tank.
The 3 gal. tank has a 15 watt hood. I'll see if there are PCs that can be used. If not, I'll get another hood or rip out the socket and put in a normal socket. Either way should be pretty cheap.
By the way, all visible parasites have dropped off. I'm down to seven weeks before I introduce the first coral. I'll actually purchase it in a few weeks, then quarantine it while waiting for the DT to finish the hypo treatment.
A well growing colorful stoney coral will easily double or triple in value every year. It is not surprising for someone to sell several hundred dollars worth of frags taken from a SPS coral during its second year when the coral was originally bought for $25. I see regularly SPS corals worth in excess of $500 or even $1000 each that were only worth $20 three to five years ago, and they have also been fragged regularly. Corals are not going to go down in price, only up.
lightcs4
Loving to learn
Hmmm ... a light at the end of the tunnel. And maybe a way to support this hobby.
Damseluver
Reefing newb
"You get what you pay for" is the type of consumer attitude that retailers are going to relish. I can buy a coralife light fixture on line for 400 or go to the local lfs and get the same fixture for 800. If i pay 800 did i get a better light? Of course not they are the exact same fixture.
When left unmanipulated market forces in a capitalist economy will naturally guarantee the best product at the lowest price. When market forces are removed through government intervention (socialism), or allowed to be manipulated by and removed by business itself (monopoly's and trust) the consumer is left with a crap product at a artificially high price, a condition that exist right now in large parts of our economy.
A perfect example of this is our health care industry where endless government manipulation has removed and or left market forces to little consequence and what do we have. Unafordable heath care. Oddly some peoples answer to this is more government.
Government is not the answer to your problems; government is the problem.....R. Reagan 1982
Now back to LFS. The business should not be opened without enough capital to assume losses for the first six months to a year. Considering the normal mark up for LFS in my area starts at 100 percent (I have actually had an lfs owner in my area tell me, "I had to raise prices business was bad") you then just offer the same or better product at a 50 percent mark up.
AS word gets around the vast majority of hobbyist dollars spent in the area will come through your door more than makeing up for the fact that your mark up is lower and instead of paying someone to dust off the products on your shelves you will have to pay them to keep the shelves stocked. As your sales volume increases your prices from the whole saler will come down and increase your profit margin that much more without raising the price tags of the items on the shelve.
Other lfs in the area will be forced to follow suite and compete or go out of business and provide a quality product to the hobbyist at a fair price. Considering the stupidity of retailers in my area they will probably chose to go out of business rather than lower there prices so that will probably not be a worry.
When left unmanipulated market forces in a capitalist economy will naturally guarantee the best product at the lowest price. When market forces are removed through government intervention (socialism), or allowed to be manipulated by and removed by business itself (monopoly's and trust) the consumer is left with a crap product at a artificially high price, a condition that exist right now in large parts of our economy.
A perfect example of this is our health care industry where endless government manipulation has removed and or left market forces to little consequence and what do we have. Unafordable heath care. Oddly some peoples answer to this is more government.
Government is not the answer to your problems; government is the problem.....R. Reagan 1982
Now back to LFS. The business should not be opened without enough capital to assume losses for the first six months to a year. Considering the normal mark up for LFS in my area starts at 100 percent (I have actually had an lfs owner in my area tell me, "I had to raise prices business was bad") you then just offer the same or better product at a 50 percent mark up.
AS word gets around the vast majority of hobbyist dollars spent in the area will come through your door more than makeing up for the fact that your mark up is lower and instead of paying someone to dust off the products on your shelves you will have to pay them to keep the shelves stocked. As your sales volume increases your prices from the whole saler will come down and increase your profit margin that much more without raising the price tags of the items on the shelve.
Other lfs in the area will be forced to follow suite and compete or go out of business and provide a quality product to the hobbyist at a fair price. Considering the stupidity of retailers in my area they will probably chose to go out of business rather than lower there prices so that will probably not be a worry.
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lightcs4
Loving to learn
Price for a particular item can fluctuate dramatically. However, it generally costs more to make a better quality product. I purchased cheaper lights on-line knowing the quality was not going to be that of a more expensive major brand. They turned out to be good lights and a good value for what I needed. However, I do not believe they are as well made as a Nova series, icecaps, or Sundial lights.
Paying more for the same product (same vendor and model number) only makes sense when you know you are going to get better service from your LFS or on-line vendor.
Nice theory, but it just does not work out that way in the real world. Online stores are cheaper for a lot of reaosns , like: lower labor costs as the only people that have to know anything are usually only available at their convenience and usually only by email not as in a LFS store where every one is expected to know something or everything, less rent or building cost as they do not have display shelves, display tanks and nice wide isles or nice displays that must meet everyones self righteous standards for humane treatment or cleanliness, lower utilities as they provide efficient wharehouse lighting not comfortable balanced spectrum lighting like retail stores, lowered costs due to volume, drop shipping, special shipping rates shipping promotional programs with shippers, lower return rates because most people will not bother with returning dead or damaged items like they will with a LFS, reduced property taxes given by cities to corporate bussineses that open up in their cities. Comparing an LFS to an online store is ridiculus, I believe small businesses should be supported, and if they are good healthy bussinesses I support them regardless of an acceptable difference in price. The comfort and convenience of a LFS that is well run is worth the extra cost for purchases. I have no respect for anyone who enters an expensive hobby and then buys only the cheapest products, or buys at only the lowest mark ups.
lightcs4
Loving to learn
I personally feel there needs to be a balance. Does the LFS provide a value for the money spent? If yes, then you are getting more than just product 'x' at cost 'y'. You are gettng a "product" that can't be put in a box.
My LFS answers any questions without pushing a sale, maintains a clean store that is easy to navigate, and provides most of the products I need. They didn't have the lights I needed so I went on-line. They didn't have dry rock either, therefore I went on line for that as well. They have most corals and fish I want, therefore I will purchase from them, even though they may be a few dollars more (sometmes more than a few) even with on-line shipping costs. If I don't support a store that provides good service and reasonable value, it may not be there when I need something in a hurry or have an urgent question.
As far as purchasing the cheapest products, again I think there needs to be a balance. Do I really need an $800 skimmer when a $200 will be just as effective on my tank? Probably not. However, I won't even bother with the skimmers they sell at one of the local chain stores for less than $80 as it won't provide adequate performance. It's like my hunting gear, I can miss with a $2500 rifle just as easily as I can miss with my used $125 shotgun :mrgreen:.
My LFS answers any questions without pushing a sale, maintains a clean store that is easy to navigate, and provides most of the products I need. They didn't have the lights I needed so I went on-line. They didn't have dry rock either, therefore I went on line for that as well. They have most corals and fish I want, therefore I will purchase from them, even though they may be a few dollars more (sometmes more than a few) even with on-line shipping costs. If I don't support a store that provides good service and reasonable value, it may not be there when I need something in a hurry or have an urgent question.
As far as purchasing the cheapest products, again I think there needs to be a balance. Do I really need an $800 skimmer when a $200 will be just as effective on my tank? Probably not. However, I won't even bother with the skimmers they sell at one of the local chain stores for less than $80 as it won't provide adequate performance. It's like my hunting gear, I can miss with a $2500 rifle just as easily as I can miss with my used $125 shotgun :mrgreen:.
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Damseluver
Reefing newb
I am not comfortable paying a 100 percent mark up on the retail level and if that mark up was not so extreme the likelihood of selling more of the product rises.
I would love to support local retail vendors but given the fact it is a rare piece of aquarium equipment that I buy on any level where I feel I have gotten my moneys worth there is not much that I buy retail.
The business model I spoke of earlier can and did work for years in this country. In fact there was a time when the common mark up was a mere 20 percent. The concept of loss lead was common too. Meaning for an lfs you charge at or below cost on the tank and stand to win the customer over on everything else that must be purchased to set up the tank. I understand there is overhead but when the product sits on the shelves because of price does not help pay that overhead.
Bottom line is if the consumer continues to pay the sucker price soon the average market will be 150 percent and so on and so on.
I would love to support local retail vendors but given the fact it is a rare piece of aquarium equipment that I buy on any level where I feel I have gotten my moneys worth there is not much that I buy retail.
The business model I spoke of earlier can and did work for years in this country. In fact there was a time when the common mark up was a mere 20 percent. The concept of loss lead was common too. Meaning for an lfs you charge at or below cost on the tank and stand to win the customer over on everything else that must be purchased to set up the tank. I understand there is overhead but when the product sits on the shelves because of price does not help pay that overhead.
Bottom line is if the consumer continues to pay the sucker price soon the average market will be 150 percent and so on and so on.
