Nitrites, and Nitrates
- Thread starter chemjoey
- Start date
kyle
Reefing newb
nothin. let natuer take it coures. i read in the other thread that ur tank only took a week and a half to get were its at. thats quick man. my tank took a month and a bit.you proably heard this before but take ur time theres no need to rush.
UnderwaterWorld
Reef enthusiast
a week and a half isn't that quick if you use live rock and sand. My tank took a week to cycle. If you don't have anything in your tank you will know your cycle is complete when you don't have and nitrite showing. Then you need to do a water change to get rid of the nitrates, it will take a while for those to be completely gone.
cthegame
Reef enthusiast
We need more info. How long has your tank been running? Are you in the middle of the cycle? Do you have live rock, fish or any other life in the tank?
No chemicals are required. Keep your tank as natural as possible.
reeffreak
Reef pro
Like Ctegame said,we need more information to help.
The best filtration is live rock.If you're not over one pound per gallon(preferably 1-1/2 lbs per gal.) then increase.
The best filtration is live rock.If you're not over one pound per gallon(preferably 1-1/2 lbs per gal.) then increase.
i have a 30g tank, with 40lbs of live caribbean sand, and 50lbs of live figi rock. I have a 130w PC lightning system, with protein skimmer and 2 maxi-jet powerheads and a marineland penguin 350 filter. The tank has been running for almost 2 and a half weeks, and I have no fish. but im starting to get some algi on the glass can i add a clean up crew?
Bifferwine
I am a girl
Your tank is not done cycling. It can take several weeks to cycle a tank (it often takes several weeks). That's why you have nitrite. You cannot add a cleaner crew if you have nitrites, nitrites will quickly kill inverts. There's nothing you can do except...wait.
Gooseman
Reefing Is An Obsession
i would wait a month before i did anything to the tank ... IMO
Wow, there should be an article on this very thread topic. It just keeps returning, over and over. I say water change he/she says no. I ask if anyone knows what a biologoical oxygen demand test is and nobody replies. I explain bacterial population growth patterns and oxygen depletion and yet every one follows the easy myth about mini cycles and not doing water changes and as a result sad levels of bacteria again are developed in yet another tanks biological system when a simple water change would increse bacterial population and speed the cycle to its finish. I am confused. Once again: Once nitrates are produced an active biological system is intact. Just do a water change to lower both nitrite and nitrate levels. Existing bacteria will jump in to full tilt boogie in their multipication due to increased dissolved oxygen levels and in doing so will quickly use up the remaining nitrites. Leaving the levels high will mean low dissolved oxygen, little bacterial multiplication (if any) and slower consumption of nitrites, resulting in a poorer bacteriological filter system. Simple science.
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sen5241b
Reef enthusiast
Correct me if I'm wrong, but although a water change will remove some bacteria, this is outweighed by the benefit of added oxygen. Wouldn't an airpump with airstone help the bacteria multiply too? Also, is there a kit to test biologoical oxygen demand?
Gooseman
Reefing Is An Obsession
our B.O.D. is a 5 day incubation process at work ... i have never heard of an at home procedure
Bifferwine
I am a girl
I am very familiar with BOD, since I am a biologist. However, I think it's super rare to get so much of a bacterial bloom that it would deplete the tank's oxygen to dangerous levels. I hear so many more instances of people not having enough bacteria in their systems to handle new additions or feedings vs. people having livestock die offs due to a lack of dissolved oxygen. I don't think that this is a concern for most people during cycling because the chances that a cycle will suffocate things in the tank is so low in the first place. I stand by my opinion to wait out the cycle and do a water change when it's done instead of throughout. I'm not stupid, and I recommend doing what has worked for me time and time again. I am a scientist and am the last person who would ignore science. But even in science, there is rarely one right answer and every other answer is wrong. I have always waited out the cycle before doing a water change, and have always had hitch hikers survive (even hitch hiking corals). This approach seems to have worked for the majority of people who have tried it. Fatman, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
reeffreak
Reef pro
There are articles from scientist and hobbyist supporting both to do water changes during a cycle and to do nothing til after the cycle.I've always recommended to new hobbyist to do nothing but check reading and remove/siphon/scrub off decaying matter when they cure/cycle in a main tank.Tell a person that they need to a water change each or every other day to keep ammonia below 1 which may or may not happen.Hmmmmm.......50-100 percent each day/every other day on say a 100 gallon tank....not realistic,yeah?Now curing live rock in a vat/separate container then I recommend doing frequent water changes.In general,they are smaller volume of water.
I've done enough curing/cycling live rock through the years without doing a water change til the cycle is complete.Is there some research done where high ammonia for a shorter period more detrimental than lower ammonia for longer periods?I always had bio-diversity live through it.I like to add that high ammonia doesn't mean that there will be high nitrates as the end results.
I've done enough curing/cycling live rock through the years without doing a water change til the cycle is complete.Is there some research done where high ammonia for a shorter period more detrimental than lower ammonia for longer periods?I always had bio-diversity live through it.I like to add that high ammonia doesn't mean that there will be high nitrates as the end results.
There were millions of fish dieing 10's dieing yearly before the fedearl requirements of BOD on waste water treatment plants was implemented. Entire ecosystems were killed due to oxygen depletion in stream and sections of rivers. Bacteria will multiply until they run out of food and oxygen. With high nutrients oxygen deprivation and even oxygen depletion is the limiting factor on multiplication. No more exponential growth just a horizontal line on the graph for a while than a plummeting line. Low introduction of nutrients that are maintained produce a higher level of bacteria than a heavy initial load that is continuous. Removal of part of the nutrients when they are high allow for another exponential growth of bacteria. Do not remove all the nutrients just enough to bring levels down to around 2 parts per million or a little less. The system is already working, the increased bacteial multiplication after the nutrient reduction just makes the system more able to handle larger future inputs. I am not saying your recommendations do not work, I am just saying science shows through many, many, (thousands at least) repeated BOD studies show that my recomendations produce a higher number of bacteria in the biologiacl system. If high ammonia does not equate to high nitrates then there is a sink in the system taking up nutrients is all that means. Biodiversity does not come from killing off bacteria but letting strains live that would be killed through stresses of oxygen limitations. Buy a dissolved oxygen meter and check the levels of oxygen thrru out a cycle. Compare it to BOD teast run scientifically. The only thing that lets the leave it alone methods even begin to work even as well as it does is its increased access to what oxygen it gets due to aeration and air water interface exchange of gases. The demand would still be exponential only the curve would be in its entirety lower on the Y scale of the graph. The leave it alone methods were not found to be good enough to work in streams, rivers, lakes or ponds. It works no better in a reef tank. All around this country the sewage going into sewage treatment plants is diluted if the BOD is high as it is the easiest and safest method of controlling an efficient biological system for the reduction of organic wastes. Lots of people still use bio wheel and bio balls, same difference. Myths and old outdated practices are hard to let go of.
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In simple english from a simple site: http://www.K12science.org/curriculum/waterproj/bod.shtml
Microorganisms such as bacteria are responsible for decomposing organic waste. When organic matter such as dead plants, leaves, grass clippings, manure, sewage, or even food waste is present in a water supply, the bacteria will begin the process of breaking down this waste. When this happens, much of the available dissolved oxygen is consumed by aerobic bacteria, robbing other aquatic organisms of the oxygen they need to live. Biological Oxygen Demand (BOD) is a measure of the oxygen used by microorganisms to decompose this waste. If there is a large quantity of organic waste in the water supply, there will also be a lot of bacteria present working to decompose this waste. In this case, the demand for oxygen will be high (due to all the bacteria) so the BOD level will be high. As the waste is consumed or dispersed through the water, BOD levels will begin to decline.
Nitrates and phosphates in a body of water can contribute to high BOD levels. Nitrates and phosphates are plant nutrients and can cause plant life and algae to grow quickly. When plants grow quickly, they also die quickly. This contributes to the organic waste in the water, which is then decomposed by bacteria. This results in a high BOD level.
When BOD levels are high, dissolved oxygen (DO) levels decrease because the oxygen that is available in the water is being consumed by the bacteria. Since less dissolved oxygen is available in the water, fish and other aquatic organisms may not survive.
Microorganisms such as bacteria are responsible for decomposing organic waste. When organic matter such as dead plants, leaves, grass clippings, manure, sewage, or even food waste is present in a water supply, the bacteria will begin the process of breaking down this waste. When this happens, much of the available dissolved oxygen is consumed by aerobic bacteria, robbing other aquatic organisms of the oxygen they need to live. Biological Oxygen Demand (BOD) is a measure of the oxygen used by microorganisms to decompose this waste. If there is a large quantity of organic waste in the water supply, there will also be a lot of bacteria present working to decompose this waste. In this case, the demand for oxygen will be high (due to all the bacteria) so the BOD level will be high. As the waste is consumed or dispersed through the water, BOD levels will begin to decline.
Nitrates and phosphates in a body of water can contribute to high BOD levels. Nitrates and phosphates are plant nutrients and can cause plant life and algae to grow quickly. When plants grow quickly, they also die quickly. This contributes to the organic waste in the water, which is then decomposed by bacteria. This results in a high BOD level.
When BOD levels are high, dissolved oxygen (DO) levels decrease because the oxygen that is available in the water is being consumed by the bacteria. Since less dissolved oxygen is available in the water, fish and other aquatic organisms may not survive.
Gooseman
Reefing Is An Obsession
i have worked at a waste water treatment facility for over 8 yrs now ... and i agree for the most part with fatman ... he is spot on
Bifferwine
I am a girl
Yes, but the cycling of our tanks caused by adding live rock or ghost feeding does not provide nearly enough of a nutrient input to even compare to a sewage treatment plant.
Wanna bet. Excess is excess. Average toilet size is about 10 gallons per flush, and urination is pobably 5 to ten times the frequency of doodie time, plus they almost always dilute incoming sewage and all but the latest storm sewers that have been built flow into the sewage treatment plants diluting it even further before the sewer plant has to dilute it.
Gooseman
Reefing Is An Obsession
i do have to say that we do not dilute any influent sewage before we treat it other than injecting it with air before it hits our primary tanks. fatman is right about storm sewers tied into the city sewer collection systems but, the only time it dilutes the sewage is during rain events. i also agree with Biff on the fact that our tanks are just a small scale compared to treatment plants.
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Small scale but proportional and same in theory and reality. There is a lot of influent coming into a plant with less "food" in it than some cycling tanks gallon for gallon. BOD tests on a reef tanks would be just as applicable as any other body of water, and all the testing has shown that the results are comparable for all other water bodies (rivers, streams, lakes, ocean), except still ponds where the effect is magnified but proportional still.
