Conclusion after watching reef videos...

[Homer]

For few days I have been carefully watching videos from natural reefs, to understand and learn more about the system how it all works...

I have made few conclusions, to which I am going to stick...

1.Some fish don`t require their own personal space, because some fish live their whole life in area less than 1 square meter with 20 other different specie fish. The rule is to have good filtration (for aquarium purposes and the right species).
2. The current or stream, needs to be very strong for species from Indonesia, and by strong I mean really, really strong...
3. The required minimal gallons for the fish again is very inaccurate, because as I mentioned some fish, spend their lifetime in very small amount of space... I think the gallons per fish required and that kind of stuff depends from few factors,such as:

1. Is the fish caught in wild or tank bred,
2. Fishes personality (they have some, although the brain isn`t the biggest or complicated in the animal world).
3.filtration

These are my conclusions :), I will keep watching,maybe I will change them :)

 

[wontonflip]

3. The required minimal gallons for the fish again is very inaccurate, because as I mentioned some fish, spend their lifetime in very small amount of space... I think the gallons per fish required and that kind of stuff depends from few factors,such as:

1. Is the fish caught in wild or tank bred,
2. Fishes personality (they have some, although the brain isn`t the biggest or complicated in the animal world).
3.filtration

These are my conclusions :), I will keep watching,maybe I will change them :)

I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the tank requirement size depends on wild or tank bred. A fish inherently will need long swimming space regardless of how they were bred.

 

[Homer]

I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the tank requirement size depends on wild or tank bred. A fish inherently will need long swimming space regardless of how they were bred.

WEll, because, if the fish is caught in wild then it will feel like in prison in any aquarium You put it in... If the fish is tank bred, it has been born in prison,there for is not aking to get in wild...

Its the same with circus bears and tigers who have been born in captivity. They don`t want to live in wild and catch food for themselves, they feel better in the small teritory they are used to live in.

 

[wontonflip]

So you're saying that just because they're tank bred and have never known the wild, they can be put into a tank that's smaller than what is appropriate? :shock: I don't agree with that. That's just cruel to stick a fish that is inherently a length-wise swimmer in a short tank.

Just because a circus animal was bred in captivity and "doesn't know any better" doesn't mean it should be kept in small confined areas. Try doing that to a human...what happens....they don't grow up normal and fear the outside world. It's not a matter of "they can live in cramped quarters"....because, sure they could live in cramped quarters. But ethically, SHOULD they live in cramped quarters to suit your designer needs?

 

[Homer]

So you're saying that just because they're tank bred and have never known the wild, they can be put into a tank that's smaller than what is appropriate? :shock: I don't agree with that. That's just cruel to stick a fish that is inherently a length-wise swimmer in a short tank.

Just because a circus animal was bred in captivity and "doesn't know any better" doesn't mean it should be kept in small confined areas. Try doing that to a human...what happens....they don't grow up normal and fear the outside world. It's not a matter of "they can live in cramped quarters"....because, sure they could live in cramped quarters. But ethically, SHOULD they live in cramped quarters to suit your designer needs?

People have tried releasing circus animals in wild - they die of hunger... or get killed by they fellow species, because they have entered theire territories in search of company...

We can`t compare to humans,because no humans have been born and raised in captivity (except few exceptions in Russia). I would suggest You to watch some reef video on Youtube, you would be suprised, in how small space these long range swimming fish are living for their entire lives,because they cannot swim to bigger location, due to the danger of predators...

And about minimum gallon space (sorry for my English) ,who and why determines that? Physics? Or biology? We both know that they have been proven wrong, because bees still fly although their wings should`t be able to carry them...

I am sticking to my research - Good filtration, reasonable amount of space, and tank bred fish will be happy

 

[wontonflip]

We can`t compare to humans,because no humans have been born and raised in captivity (except few exceptions in Russia). I would suggest You to watch some reef video on Youtube, you would be suprised, in how small space these long range swimming fish are living for their entire lives,because they cannot swim to bigger location, due to the danger of predators...

This is non-fish relatedy, but you do realize there have been lots of documented cases of children being born and hidden from the world. Take the Fritzl case, and of course Jaycee Lee Dugard. Those are just two.

But again, just because you never let an animal know nothing more than captivity doesn't make it right. And I'm not saying they can be released in the wild. Quite the opposite. They would never survive. Hell, look at ferrets LOL They are all captive bred. There are no wild ferrets (I'm talking the household ferret; not black-footed ferrets). They still hold survival instincts (like backing up a corner to poop, bristling when frightened). A tang, if they ever breed them successfully, will still want to swim. A clownfish naturally stays in one spot to host. But watch tangs swim. They swim horizontally. Coral beauties also, but they can be in smaller tanks because they graze all day. Some fish just swim all day.

 

[Northstar24]

The problem with your research is that many of the fish in this hobby aren't captive bred. As far as the 1 fish per 10 gallon rule and or minimum tank sizes, it's partially due to making sure that the filtration can handle the bio load, and it's also based on experience of people keeping the fish

Not to long ago someone posted on here about an empower angel in a 75 gallon tank that would kill anything else added to the tank. The minimum tank size for that fish is like 280 gallons, but this one was in a much smaller tank. Because of that, it got hyper aggressive towards anything added to the tank.

Overcrowd your tank or putting fish in a tank that is too small will lead to problems, as part of your research, take a look at some of the many threads here about this issue and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about

 

[Bifferwine]

The only captive bred fish in this hobby are some clowns, some cardinals, some mandarins, seahorses and some gobies.

Even captive bred fish have the same instincts as wild animals.

As for your assertion that wild animals like tigers and bears that are born in captivity do fine in small spaces, any zoo keeper will tell you that's just not true (and I am a biologist). Those animals end up exhibiting severe behavioral problems. They trend to pace back and forth all day long. Zoo keepers have to provide them with a lot of mental stimulation activities - and the activities have to be changed all the time - in order to keep them from going crazy. And if a keeper forgets they are wild animals, those animals still have that wild instinct and will kill them if they feel threatened. It happens all the time.

I think your research is wrong.

 

[Homer]

I am talking about tank bred fish...

 

[wontonflip]

Yes...and what we're saying is that even if they successfully bred tangs (or other active fish) in captivity (which they have not), they are still inherently active horizontal swimmers. That's a behavior they're born with; not taught. So even if they bred a tang in captivity, they will still need space.

 

[Homer]

The only captive bred fish in this hobby are some clowns, some cardinals, some mandarins, seahorses and some gobies.

Even captive bred fish have the same instincts as wild animals.

As for your assertion that wild animals like tigers and bears that are born in captivity do fine in small spaces, any zoo keeper will tell you that's just not true (and I am a biologist). Those animals end up exhibiting severe behavioral problems. They trend to pace back and forth all day long. Zoo keepers have to provide them with a lot of mental stimulation activities - and the activities have to be changed all the time - in order to keep them from going crazy. And if a keeper forgets they are wild animals, those animals still have that wild instinct and will kill them if they feel threatened. It happens all the time.

I think your research is wrong.

Recently there was episode on National geographic or Animal planet, about guy who raised cheetah. Cheetah`s mom got killed and he raised this little thingy in his house. The episode was about how,he tried to reintroduce him back in to the wild. He brought the cheetah in area full of bunnies, nothing... Cheetah just didn`t do anything. He tried to do many things, but failed...

 

[Homer]

This is non-fish relatedy, but you do realize there have been lots of documented cases of children being born and hidden from the world. Take the Fritzl case, and of course Jaycee Lee Dugard. Those are just two.

But again, just because you never let an animal know nothing more than captivity doesn't make it right. And I'm not saying they can be released in the wild. Quite the opposite. They would never survive. Hell, look at ferrets LOL They are all captive bred. There are no wild ferrets (I'm talking the household ferret; not black-footed ferrets). They still hold survival instincts (like backing up a corner to poop, bristling when frightened). A tang, if they ever breed them successfully, will still want to swim. A clownfish naturally stays in one spot to host. But watch tangs swim. They swim horizontally. Coral beauties also, but they can be in smaller tanks because they graze all day. Some fish just swim all day.

About ferrets... Well, if You would check the research done by scientists, comparing the animal brain and their intelligence, then You would see, that ferrets were almost on the bottom of chart, waay under mice and, way,way lower than rats, not talking about other animals... Ferrets are mostly instict driven and that`s it, I owned ferret for two years, believe me, I know what I am talking about, when I say ferrets are instict driven. It`s like saying: "Hell, look at the earthworm, if You bred them in captivity and release in wild,they would still survive... " :) Get my point?

 

[Northstar24]

About ferrets... Well, if You would check the research done by scientists, comparing the animal brain and their intelligence, then You would see, that ferrets were almost on the bottom of chart, waay under mice and, way,way lower than rats, not talking about other animals... Ferrets are mostly instict driven and that`s it, I owned ferret for two years, believe me, I know what I am talking about, when I say ferrets are instict driven. It`s like saying: "Hell, look at the earthworm, if You bred them in captivity and release in wild,they would still survive... " :) Get my point?

And your assertion is that fish are closer to cheetahs and less instinctive than ferrets?

 

[Homer]

And your assertion is that fish are closer to cheetahs and less instinctive than ferrets?

Just saying fish are smarter than ferrets

 

[wontonflip]

About ferrets... Well, if You would check the research done by scientists, comparing the animal brain and their intelligence, then You would see, that ferrets were almost on the bottom of chart, waay under mice and, way,way lower than rats, not talking about other animals... Ferrets are mostly instict driven and that`s it, I owned ferret for two years, believe me, I know what I am talking about, when I say ferrets are instict driven. It`s like saying: "Hell, look at the earthworm, if You bred them in captivity and release in wild,they would still survive... " :) Get my point?

First, I owned 4 ferrets at once for 7 years 12 years ago until their deaths, and then owned one for 7 years until his death 2 years ago. So yes, I actually do know quite a bit about ferrets.

The point is not about whether they can survive in the wild. I even stressed that captive bred animals shouldn't be released into the wild (it can be done, but not without lots of training and therapy). What I am saying is that just because it is captive bred does not make it right to keep them confined in smaller spaces. Animals are instinct driven (you just pointed that out above about ferrets). It's instinctive for a tang (if sucessfully captive bred) to want to swim lengthwise. Hence the need for a long tank for certain fish.

 

[Homer]

First, I owned 4 ferrets at once for 7 years 12 years ago until their deaths, and then owned one for 7 years until his death 2 years ago. So yes, I actually do know quite a bit about ferrets.

The point is not about whether they can survive in the wild. I even stressed that captive bred animals shouldn't be released into the wild (it can be done, but not without lots of training and therapy). What I am saying is that just because it is captive bred does not make it right to keep them confined in smaller spaces. Animals are instinct driven (you just pointed that out above about ferrets). It's instinctive for a tang (if sucessfully captive bred) to want to swim lengthwise. Hence the need for a long tank for certain fish.

Spend YOur energy on this:

Anonymous message to Ukraine... - YouTube

 

[Bifferwine]

Recently there was episode on National geographic or Animal planet, about guy who raised cheetah. Cheetah`s mom got killed and he raised this little thingy in his house. The episode was about how,he tried to reintroduce him back in to the wild. He brought the cheetah in area full of bunnies, nothing... Cheetah just didn`t do anything. He tried to do many things, but failed...

Stories like that are not common. A story that's much more commonly heard is that someone tries to raise a wild animal in their home, and that animal still has wild instinct, turns on their owner and kills them.

 

[bjohanson1234]

Spend YOur energy on this:

Anonymous message to Ukraine... - YouTube

Video doesn't work in US because of copy rights so not able to comment on it.


Anyways, I think that watching videos of natural reefs, although informative in their own way, will teach you nothing about maintaining an aquarium. The ocean is infinitely larger than any aquarium. The pollutants from fish waste don't build up in an ocean because of this. No amount of filtration will every equal what the ocean naturally provides. The rule 1 fish per 10 gallons came around because, not only territory, but also because of bioload. There are some things you can do to push that number higher, but not too much without being constantly on the verge of a tank crash.

Also, the minimum gallon rating for a fish has been established from trial and error. Some fish just don't do well in small tanks. Such as tangs, which even at a small size, swim very actively. They also grow to large sizes.

 

[little_fish]

I'm not sure there is anything I can say that will make you change your mind because you seem to have come to this idiotic conclusion that your few minutes spend watching videos on YouTube give you a greater authority than the years people have spent caring for these fish and the years I have spent working with both domesticated animals and zoo animals.

First, your premis that fish aren't instinct driven is simply absurd. You seem to assume that fish must be taught to be long distance swimmers and to enjoy all the space the ocean has to offer, this teaching that captive bred fish for some reason don't get. This implies that you think some mommy and daddy fish are there to teach their little fish babies to enjoy the open ocean and to use the space they have, a teaching that captive breed fish don't get. But that is absolute crap because there is no mommy and daddy fish to teach the baby fish anything, in the ocean or captive breed. Fish spawn and that is all the parental involvement you get, everything that fish will do in its life must be hardwired in. Totally instict driven, something that isn't going to chance because they were born in a glass box instead of the open ocean.

Also because you don't have to teach a fish a thing for it to function successfully in this world, that ranks them a whole lot lower than ferrets, cheetahs and whatever else you might try and continue your rediculus argument with.

But speaking of zoo animals, the ones in small spaces generally have much bigger issues. Keeps work endless to keep these animals mentally active so that they don't go crazy. But they usually aren't successful and many of these animals end up with self repeating, self mutiltating behavior and many of them are put on anti-physicotic drugs. Animals in small space are not happy animals when they are used to having miles to roam! And these animals are many many many generations removed from the wild. You might not be able to teach them to hunt, but you can't teach them it's ok to live in a tiny box.

 

[Neno reefs]

In the ocean fish choose to live in a 1 square meter territory but that fish chose to live in a small space. If he ever wants to swim somewhere els he can. But in glass tank the fish has no say, we are forcing them to live in a glass cube. It’s just like people, most people live most of there lives in a house but if they wanted to they could always leave. An animal in a small cage/tank is like a person being forced to live in there house there whole lives.

And saying ferrets are not smart is stupid, ferrets can learn and are quite intelligent