Gigaah
Reefing newb
End of week 4:
Nitrates are ZERO
and my tank is stocked pretty high and was stocked pretty fast
Nitrates are ZERO
and my tank is stocked pretty high and was stocked pretty fast
Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!
- Thread starter SantaMonica
- Start date
SantaMonica
Reefing newb
Way to go!
Tristan
Detritus
Cool im working on mine right now.
alaska clowns
Reef Mommy
Hello! I think I've read through most of this thread, and now I'm trying to figure out how to get a scrubber set up under my tank. I wanted to ask all you more experienced turf scrubber people............ I'm not sure if this has been broached before..... can a scrubber replace the need for the use of RO/DI water for water changes (using de-chlorinated tap water instead)? Sorry if I'm asking something that's been asked before.....
Thank you for your help!
Thank you for your help!
SantaMonica
Reefing newb
A scrubber does remove most of the "bad" things in tap water, but it is not known yet if they are ALL removed. And what certainly is not known is if they are removed fast enough for you to put tap water right into your tank. Chlorine is definitely NOT removed by scrubbers, but chlorine will evaporate in a day or so if the water is circulated in an open container BEFORE puting it in the tank. Chloramines (chlorine + ammonia), however, are another matter. They are added by some city water systems, and they are not removed by scrubbers (and they do not evaporate). So if you are not using RO or RODI water, you must use an additive to remove chloramines (if your city water has chloramines; ask them). Water from a well should be fine, since no chlorine or chloramines are added.
Some people are experimenting with using tap water instead of RO or RODI, but there are no results yet. A fish-only (no rock, no sand) tank is probably fine, if you have no chloramines, and if you let the water circulate for a day before using it (to remove chlorine). If you have chloramines, you can use an additive to remove the chlorine and chloramines right away, without having to wait a day.
If you have live rock, or live sand, or any corals or inverts at all, then your problem becomes copper. Copper can occur in city water or in wells. Yes a scrubber (i.e., algae) consumes copper, but the question is, will the copper be removed fast enough so that no damage occurs when you add the tap water. Nobody has tested this, so it would be an experiment. For best chances, you'd want an oversize scrubber, with powerful lighting, and strong flow, along with cleaning every 7 days no matter what. The best way would be to start with an new tank, and add your corals or inverts one at a time (cheapest first). This would be a good test for someone to try.
Some people are experimenting with using tap water instead of RO or RODI, but there are no results yet. A fish-only (no rock, no sand) tank is probably fine, if you have no chloramines, and if you let the water circulate for a day before using it (to remove chlorine). If you have chloramines, you can use an additive to remove the chlorine and chloramines right away, without having to wait a day.
If you have live rock, or live sand, or any corals or inverts at all, then your problem becomes copper. Copper can occur in city water or in wells. Yes a scrubber (i.e., algae) consumes copper, but the question is, will the copper be removed fast enough so that no damage occurs when you add the tap water. Nobody has tested this, so it would be an experiment. For best chances, you'd want an oversize scrubber, with powerful lighting, and strong flow, along with cleaning every 7 days no matter what. The best way would be to start with an new tank, and add your corals or inverts one at a time (cheapest first). This would be a good test for someone to try.
SantaMonica
Reefing newb
Several updates:
1. The algae that does the filtering in the oceans (algae is 90 percent of all life, except for bacteria) is planktonic, meaning they are small particles floating in the water. This is why the ocean is greenish in color. The tiny bit of algae on the beaches is not enough to do any filtering for an entire ocean.
2. Brown-to-Green. Algae on your screen will start off brown, then go to green, after several cleanings. But brown aglae STILL filters; it's just that it's the type of algae that grows when nutrients are high. If your screen never turns green, you are still getting filtering from the brown; it's just that your scrubber is not strong enough to get nutrients low enough to grow green (based on how much you are currently feeding).
3. Real turf algae (the kinds that is tough like carpet) is not needed. Last year I posted that real turf was best, but now it's been shown that in DIY aquarium scrubbers, green hair and even brown slime filters just as well. And that's a good thing because real turf almost never grows because it gets covered up by green and brown (unless you use a surge, which kills the green and brown with lack of flow.)
4. Fish-only tanks don't need tiny particles of food in the water, and thus don't benefit as much from scrubbers. However if you are going to run a skimmerless fish-only tank, and if you are not going to have any mechanical filter at all (like a filter sock), one thing you can do is use very little flow in the display, so that all fish waste will fall to the bottom. Then, make sure you have enough cleanup's on the bottom to break the waste up into tiny particles. The quicker the particles are broken up, the quicker bacteria can convert them into ammonia, nitrate and phosphate, and the quicker the scrubber can absorb these things. However if you are going to have any mechanical filters at all (including a skimmer), then you want high flow along the bottom of the tank so that the particles will get taken away to the filters for removal.
5. T5 bulbs are better, for the same wattage, because all the power is distributed evenly across the screen. CFL bulbs have to be moved further away, because the center spot gets too much power, but the farther spots don't get enough. T5 scrubbers are MUCH harder to build, however.
6. I keep hearing "Yes, skimmers DO remove nitrate and phosphate! They just do it by removing organics BEFORE they break down into nitrates and phosphates". That's just great. Organics, before they "break down", are called FOOD. Yes, FOOD. So yes, skimmers DO remove FOOD (i.e, "protein"). But saying that removing FOOD is the same as removing nitrates and phosphates is like saying removing BEER, before you drink it, is the same as removing the pee after you drink it. Wouldn't you rather have the beer, and then remove the pee? Skimmers remove the food that you put in the tank. Scrubbers remove the "pee" after the tank eats the food.
7. Horizontal (one-sided) screens are only recommended for nano tanks, and only if the screen is narrow (no more than 4 inches wide) so that the water flows like a river. If you try to do horizontal screens on bigger tanks, the screen will have to be wider, and what will happen is that when algae tries to grow thick, it will block the flow from getting past it (it will even block flow to itself). If the screen is 4 inches wide or less, and if the flow is very high, the water will pile up and get over the algae. But on wider screens it won't, and any algae downstream of the thick algae will have it's flow cut off. And for any horizontal screen, make sure you put a solid sheet under it, to keep the water from falling through.
8. Cloudiness is caused by underlying algae layers dying (from not cleaning); if you look at these layers, they look like wheat, and they fall right off of the screen. Green or yellow water, however, is caused by cleaning the screen in the water, without removing it first and taking it to the sink; the strands of algae break and put colored stuff into the water.
9. Algae video: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB2XlpD-Ld4[/ame]
1. The algae that does the filtering in the oceans (algae is 90 percent of all life, except for bacteria) is planktonic, meaning they are small particles floating in the water. This is why the ocean is greenish in color. The tiny bit of algae on the beaches is not enough to do any filtering for an entire ocean.
2. Brown-to-Green. Algae on your screen will start off brown, then go to green, after several cleanings. But brown aglae STILL filters; it's just that it's the type of algae that grows when nutrients are high. If your screen never turns green, you are still getting filtering from the brown; it's just that your scrubber is not strong enough to get nutrients low enough to grow green (based on how much you are currently feeding).
3. Real turf algae (the kinds that is tough like carpet) is not needed. Last year I posted that real turf was best, but now it's been shown that in DIY aquarium scrubbers, green hair and even brown slime filters just as well. And that's a good thing because real turf almost never grows because it gets covered up by green and brown (unless you use a surge, which kills the green and brown with lack of flow.)
4. Fish-only tanks don't need tiny particles of food in the water, and thus don't benefit as much from scrubbers. However if you are going to run a skimmerless fish-only tank, and if you are not going to have any mechanical filter at all (like a filter sock), one thing you can do is use very little flow in the display, so that all fish waste will fall to the bottom. Then, make sure you have enough cleanup's on the bottom to break the waste up into tiny particles. The quicker the particles are broken up, the quicker bacteria can convert them into ammonia, nitrate and phosphate, and the quicker the scrubber can absorb these things. However if you are going to have any mechanical filters at all (including a skimmer), then you want high flow along the bottom of the tank so that the particles will get taken away to the filters for removal.
5. T5 bulbs are better, for the same wattage, because all the power is distributed evenly across the screen. CFL bulbs have to be moved further away, because the center spot gets too much power, but the farther spots don't get enough. T5 scrubbers are MUCH harder to build, however.
6. I keep hearing "Yes, skimmers DO remove nitrate and phosphate! They just do it by removing organics BEFORE they break down into nitrates and phosphates". That's just great. Organics, before they "break down", are called FOOD. Yes, FOOD. So yes, skimmers DO remove FOOD (i.e, "protein"). But saying that removing FOOD is the same as removing nitrates and phosphates is like saying removing BEER, before you drink it, is the same as removing the pee after you drink it. Wouldn't you rather have the beer, and then remove the pee? Skimmers remove the food that you put in the tank. Scrubbers remove the "pee" after the tank eats the food.
7. Horizontal (one-sided) screens are only recommended for nano tanks, and only if the screen is narrow (no more than 4 inches wide) so that the water flows like a river. If you try to do horizontal screens on bigger tanks, the screen will have to be wider, and what will happen is that when algae tries to grow thick, it will block the flow from getting past it (it will even block flow to itself). If the screen is 4 inches wide or less, and if the flow is very high, the water will pile up and get over the algae. But on wider screens it won't, and any algae downstream of the thick algae will have it's flow cut off. And for any horizontal screen, make sure you put a solid sheet under it, to keep the water from falling through.
8. Cloudiness is caused by underlying algae layers dying (from not cleaning); if you look at these layers, they look like wheat, and they fall right off of the screen. Green or yellow water, however, is caused by cleaning the screen in the water, without removing it first and taking it to the sink; the strands of algae break and put colored stuff into the water.
9. Algae video: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB2XlpD-Ld4[/ame]
Gigaah
Reefing newb
I have experience using tap water. I tried using filtered tap water(removes cholrine and other bad things). however It came out of the tap at nitrates of 40. And having to add 1 gallon per day because of evaporation. The scrubber would not keep up with it. My scrubber is aprox 3x larger than 1sq per gallon guide line.
I've noticed thru experiments that the scrubber isn't not very efficient at removing nitrites. It eats up nitrates tho pretty damn well. I've never had any sort of ammonia spike what so ever either and I went pretty hard against the rules in stocking my tank.
55g tank
50lbs live rock( I know I need more)
2 PJ cardinals (2")
3 green chromis (1.5")
1 false clown (2")
1 scooter blenny(1.5")
1 clown goby (1")
1 tiger goby (4")
1 target mandarin (1")
1 Yellowtail damsel(2")
1 fire fish (2")
1 sand sifting star(2")
1 coral banded shrimp (3")
Tank born Nov 1st 2009
Nitrates 0
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
copepods = massive ammounts
Amphipods = none(working on that)
If you got a 55gallon tank like me. And you scrubber is enclosed fully. You might need a fan on it. I have four 23w CFLs and I had to wire a fan to turn on when the lights are on to prevent the water from overheating.
I've noticed thru experiments that the scrubber isn't not very efficient at removing nitrites. It eats up nitrates tho pretty damn well. I've never had any sort of ammonia spike what so ever either and I went pretty hard against the rules in stocking my tank.
55g tank
50lbs live rock( I know I need more)
2 PJ cardinals (2")
3 green chromis (1.5")
1 false clown (2")
1 scooter blenny(1.5")
1 clown goby (1")
1 tiger goby (4")
1 target mandarin (1")
1 Yellowtail damsel(2")
1 fire fish (2")
1 sand sifting star(2")
1 coral banded shrimp (3")
Tank born Nov 1st 2009
Nitrates 0
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
copepods = massive ammounts
Amphipods = none(working on that)
If you got a 55gallon tank like me. And you scrubber is enclosed fully. You might need a fan on it. I have four 23w CFLs and I had to wire a fan to turn on when the lights are on to prevent the water from overheating.
SantaMonica
Reefing newb
Yes but were your watts 3x as well?
Gigaah
Reefing newb
I forget the exact watts per inch. My screens are 8.5x10 there are two of them. so 17Wx10 with four 23w cfls. I just couldn't fit two more in there. tho I had planned too..it just wouldn't work.
Tristan
Detritus
Hi. i have a question. with the algae scrubber, would you be able to stock more fish than recommended?
SantaMonica
Reefing newb
If you are adding a scrubber to other filters that you already have, yes.
Tristan
Detritus
ok, i made the bucket version. it seems to be working great, but how do you silence it?
andysgirl8800
Blenny Badlands
I have had my scrubber up and running since November 15th. The screen is still growing only brown algae, no green. The algae in my DT is not abating. My Nitrates are still reading at 20ppm.
I have a single sided screen with both lights only 2 inches from the screen. I do weekly cleanings religiously, removing 90% of the algae each time. I only feed once every 3 days, have a low bioload, have a skimmer and a sump, short lighting schedule on my DT, 18 on and 6 off lighting for the scrubber, use RO/DI water only, and still my HA is out of control.
I am using the same lights that you posted as a link. I get a perfect waterfall flow over the screen. Have a three layered screen, roughed up just right.
Following your suggestions, I have been removing small areas of algae from the DT just before my water change. In some cases, I have removed a rock completely to clean it in a bucket instead. I have a strong CUC working their little tails off in there, but the Nitrates haven't budged. Even bought a new test kit, thinking maybe mine had gone bad.
About the only noticable difference is that the algae in my DT turned a darker green and is growing thicker on some rocks. I assume this is because the nutrients are leeching out of the rocks. I just wish I had more difinitive results like so many others have had that tell me this thing is working. It's very frustrating to watch as the algae takes over my corals.
I have a single sided screen with both lights only 2 inches from the screen. I do weekly cleanings religiously, removing 90% of the algae each time. I only feed once every 3 days, have a low bioload, have a skimmer and a sump, short lighting schedule on my DT, 18 on and 6 off lighting for the scrubber, use RO/DI water only, and still my HA is out of control.
I am using the same lights that you posted as a link. I get a perfect waterfall flow over the screen. Have a three layered screen, roughed up just right.
Following your suggestions, I have been removing small areas of algae from the DT just before my water change. In some cases, I have removed a rock completely to clean it in a bucket instead. I have a strong CUC working their little tails off in there, but the Nitrates haven't budged. Even bought a new test kit, thinking maybe mine had gone bad.
About the only noticable difference is that the algae in my DT turned a darker green and is growing thicker on some rocks. I assume this is because the nutrients are leeching out of the rocks. I just wish I had more difinitive results like so many others have had that tell me this thing is working. It's very frustrating to watch as the algae takes over my corals.
SantaMonica
Reefing newb
Tristan: Make sure the screen goes all the way to the bottom so the water does not fall off.
Andy: The short answer is that your scrubber is not powerful enough for your situation, which is told by the no-green growth. Post some display pics. Also, with three layers of screen, you do want to clean everything off. Post before and after cleaning shots too. Note: The two bulbs in the original posting is not much, and was posted before guidelines were found. The minimum should be 0.5 watts per gallon for medium filtering; 1.0 watts per gallon for high filtering. If you have living matter in your sump, you'd have 165 gal, so the least you'd want would be 80 watts of light. This is why your scrubber is weak. Might still be able to help though, after seeing pics.
Andy: The short answer is that your scrubber is not powerful enough for your situation, which is told by the no-green growth. Post some display pics. Also, with three layers of screen, you do want to clean everything off. Post before and after cleaning shots too. Note: The two bulbs in the original posting is not much, and was posted before guidelines were found. The minimum should be 0.5 watts per gallon for medium filtering; 1.0 watts per gallon for high filtering. If you have living matter in your sump, you'd have 165 gal, so the least you'd want would be 80 watts of light. This is why your scrubber is weak. Might still be able to help though, after seeing pics.
Tristan
Detritus
ive tried that but it seems to make the flow weaker. im using a 1 1/4 pvc. is that too big? that's the only one that will fit the eshopps overflow.
Tristan
Detritus
also is the aim to grow hair algae? cause i already got some growing after a couple of hours
andysgirl8800
Blenny Badlands
Here is the DT full shot.
Here is a closer shot of an area where it is growing in thicker and darker, note the continued growth on the glass:
I should have taken some more photos this morning, as I just spent the last 3 hours removing rocks from the DT to scrub in buckets. Imagine the above photo's GHA about 2 inches long and covering the entire upper surface.
The lights are 23W CFL 5000K rating, which is equivalent to 100w each. I do clean all three layers of the screen on all sides of the screen. I can take a photo, but I am in between cleaning cycles and only have about half the brown growth right now.
Here is a closer shot of an area where it is growing in thicker and darker, note the continued growth on the glass:
I should have taken some more photos this morning, as I just spent the last 3 hours removing rocks from the DT to scrub in buckets. Imagine the above photo's GHA about 2 inches long and covering the entire upper surface.
The lights are 23W CFL 5000K rating, which is equivalent to 100w each. I do clean all three layers of the screen on all sides of the screen. I can take a photo, but I am in between cleaning cycles and only have about half the brown growth right now.
SantaMonica
Reefing newb
Pipe size will not affect flow. Yes you want hair algae.
Equivalent watts is not used, only real watts. 2 X 23 is too small for 160 gal, as you are finding. Matter of fact if you fit your screen into a 5 gal bucket, then that screen is really too small too. Looks like you have the space, so the easiest thing to do would be to add a second bucket, just like the first. Last resort would be to add two more lights to the first bucket.
However, if you are getting partial green now, it might go all green eventually.
When cleaning, don't clean between the screens; only clean the two outer sides. Algae will remain in-between to grow quickly.
Equivalent watts is not used, only real watts. 2 X 23 is too small for 160 gal, as you are finding. Matter of fact if you fit your screen into a 5 gal bucket, then that screen is really too small too. Looks like you have the space, so the easiest thing to do would be to add a second bucket, just like the first. Last resort would be to add two more lights to the first bucket.
However, if you are getting partial green now, it might go all green eventually.
When cleaning, don't clean between the screens; only clean the two outer sides. Algae will remain in-between to grow quickly.
andysgirl8800
Blenny Badlands
I don't have mine in a bucket, it's in my sump. I do not have room to add another screen, or a bucket for that matter. So, if lights are a problem, should I not use CFLs?
