Sponges Only

[Steve Frey]

Hello to all, total greenhorn here, I would like to set up an aquarium strictly to study sponges and their symbiont organisms and would be interested in any input I can get. I have a 20 gallon tank I was thinking about using which brings up my first question, is this too small for say 4 or 5 boring sponges (cliona celata) that are approx 4 inches in size or should I just toss this one and go with a 55gal?

Next question is do I need to set the tank up as a reef aquarium even though I do not plan on having any coral in it, also other than water purity and lighting are there any other differences with a reef aquarium?


From what I have learned so far the biggest challenges in maintaining sponges is providing sufficient food and insuring that food is small enough in size for the sponge to consume., is live sand the way to go here?

Thank you

 

[FishyReef]

Out of curiosity, is this something you'll be setting up in a lab or at home for your own curiosity? I ask because I think you can go with the smaller size if you're doing it in a lab where you'll be able to do more frequent water changes and have space to culture food sources. If at home I would go with a larger tank as you'll need to feed often, which can foul the water in a smaller tank and cause all sorts of water chemistry problems.

You will need to have some sort of clean up crew to deal with algae growth and excess food from feeding. I agree that food sources are doing to be the hardest part. Normally I would consider setting up a large refugium to culture food sources, but if you have no fish or other organisms in the tank to compete for the food, then you might be able to culture in the tank.

I don't know a huge amount about sponges, but you might might want to read up on breeding fish and the work that goes in to culturing food sources for larvae as I think you will need to set up similar cultures for food for the sponges.

What makes a saltwater aquarium a reef aquarium is the presence of corals (as opposed to a FOWLR tank - Fish Only with Live Rock). The set up is the same regardless, except you need stronger lighting for some corals than you do for a FOWLR tank. I think most sponges are non-photosynthetic and prefer subdued lighting, but you'll definitely want to do your homework on the lighting and flow needs of the various species you get. Your primary filter will be live rock (1-2lbs per gallon), which provides surface area for the nitrifying bacteria to grow. Given the amount you need to feed, I would go on the 2lb/gallon end to provide enough bacteria to break down the ammonia from food. I would also run a sump with a good skimmer, and chaeto to help control phosphates. Live food is the way to go, but remember that each organism will need a different smaller organisms to feed off of - hence the culturing of multiple food sources and why I'm suggesting marine breeding forums or books as a good place to get info!

If you are doing this in a lab, then you can probably get away without a sump and just do more frequent water changes. If you go with either the small or large tank you can put macro algae in to help manage phosphates (chaeto is a macro algae), but I don't know what the impact on the research would be if the macro algae was in the main tank.

Sounds like an interesting project - keep us posted on how it goes!

 

[little_fish]

Another big challenge is going to be collecting the sponges. Sponges shouldn't ever be exposed to air because the air will clog their pores and they slowly starve. I think you have a pretty big challenge in front of you, sponges are very challenging to keep. They tend to slowly waste away in our tank. Maybe your project can shed some light on how to better keep them.

 

[Steve Frey]

Thank you for your input, it is greatly appreciated. This will be set up at my house. I've been researching sponges religiously for over six years now by reading hundreds, maybe thousands, of science papers but have yet to study them first hand. I guess you could call it a hobby of sorts, or better yet a project that takes up a great deal of my time, it's all part of a theory/hypothesis I'm formulating. It's pretty amazing just how much we don't know about this amazing organism.

What I am mainly interested in with this aquarium is studying the sponge's associated organisms, bacteria, fungi, arthropods, etc. I am not interested in how it looks I just want it to support life, with this said, should I have plants in it for a healthy system or are they necessary? Ultimately I would like to place underwater cameras in the tank to record the dynamics of the macro-organisms living in/on the sponges. I also plan on studying the sponge's micro-organisms, cell aggregation and asexual reproduction using my biological scope so I'm sure to lose a few specimens. I doubt that's it possible at this time to obtain one of the carnivorous species but I'm going to give it a try, this sponge is not a filter feeder, instead it captures live prey, like a small shrimp, and then the sponge's cells disassociate themselves and feed independently on the prey. An organism that can take itself apart and put itself back together, simply amazing.

 

[FishyReef]

Everything I said in my post about needing a clean up crew (snails), macro algae, and rock is for functionality and to support live - not for asthetic reasons. Good and stable water parameters are a must in tanks. One of the ways parameters get out of whack is overfeeding. Given the feeding needs of sponges I think you are going to have to feed larger quantities than what you normally would. Having a good amount of live rock will help break down the ammonia from the food, the clean up crew will help eat left over food, and the macro algae (plants) are going to use the nitrates and phosphates that exist in the water (and will be at excess with feeding). These provide a natural way to help keep your parameters in check.

 

[Steve Frey]

Another big challenge is going to be collecting the sponges. Sponges shouldn't ever be exposed to air because the air will clog their pores and they slowly starve. I think you have a pretty big challenge in front of you, sponges are very challenging to keep. They tend to slowly waste away in our tank. Maybe your project can shed some light on how to better keep them.

Yes I aware of the challenge that awaits me, that's one reason I want as few non-sponge organisms in the tank as possible. For starters I plan on ordering some sponges from this site Gulf Specimen Sponges

they should come complete with symbionts as this quote claims

Some species are living habitats with numerous commensal anemones, polychaete worms, brittlestars, crabs, shrimps, and nudibranchs living deep within their protective canal systems partaking of the food and oxygen bearing currents that are pumped throughout the colonies

Thank you for replying, I am trying to learn all I can so as to limit my loses, I anticipate some failures due to the difficulty of maintaining these organisms.

 

[little_fish]

I don't think you are going to get the information you are looking for in a captive environment like out our tank, very few of those symbiotic environment will survive to and then continue in our tanks. Some species might have those inhabitants, but the odds of them being included in the shipment are slim to none

 

[Steve Frey]

Everything I said in my post about needing a clean up crew (snails), macro algae, and rock is for functionality and to support live - not for asthetic reasons. Good and stable water parameters are a must in tanks. One of the ways parameters get out of whack is overfeeding. Given the feeding needs of sponges I think you are going to have to feed larger quantities than what you normally would. Having a good amount of live rock will help break down the ammonia from the food, the clean up crew will help eat left over food, and the macro algae (plants) are going to use the nitrates and phosphates that exist in the water (and will be at excess with feeding). These provide a natural way to help keep your parameters in check.

So I've decided on tossing the 20 gal and going with a 55gal, a sump with a good skimmer as you suggested, macro-algae (chaeto) and 2lbs per gal of live rock, so no need for the live sand? The specimen marine lab suggests temperatures between 60-70f, this would not require a heater correct?

I will also do as you suggested and read up on culturing food sources for larvae.

 

[Steve Frey]

I don't think you are going to get the information you are looking for in a captive environment like out our tank, very few of those symbiotic environment will survive to and then continue in our tanks. Some species might have those inhabitants, but the odds of them being included in the shipment are slim to none

Hmmm, interesting point, I think I will call the specimen marine lab and pick their brains for info on this subject. From what I have learned I suspect that if the symbionts are in the sponge at the marine lab then they should ship with them.

 

[AmberSunrise]

I have ball and fan sponges in my tank for quite a long time now. I got them from Tampa bay saltwater I dont do anything special for them but they have all attached to rocks and are doing well. I just keep them at the lower portion of the tank so if I do a big water change there is no risk of them being exposed.

 

[FishyReef]

Hmmm, interesting point, I think I will call the specimen marine lab and pick their brains for info on this subject. From what I have learned I suspect that if the symbionts are in the sponge at the marine lab then they should ship with them.

They might ship, but I wonder how well they will ship. Some specimens are just prone to shipping stress and can die en-route.

Another thought I have for you is to try your hand at a FOWLR tank for 6 months and then switch it to your sponge tank. This will really allow the tank to mature and will also give you a great deal of experience in keeping a marine tank before diving in with more difficult species like sponges. Probably not something you're interested in, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. You would still do the exact same set up, just remove the fish and return them to the store when you are ready to move to sponges only. I'm thinking easy fish like a clown pair, blenny, goby, or royal gramma - not too many, just a few to get yourself into the swing of keeping stable parameters and dealing with the inevitable ups and downs of owning a saltwater tank.


EDIT: As for the live sand, yes I would add aragonite sand to the bottom of the tank (not crushed coral). You can buy "live sand" from the store but honestly it isn't very alive at that point. All live sand and live rock really mean is a population of nitrifying bacteria growing in/on them. You can use mostly dry rock and dry sand, then add a few lbs of live rock, cycle your tank, and within a few weeks the bacteria will colonize the rest of the rock and sand. Once established however, you will get additional inverts that start to reproduce and populate the sand - pods, brittlestars, snails, bristleworms, etc - all good members of a marine tank that will help control algae and eat leftover food. You don't need to add them, they usually come on on the few lbs of live rock you add to your tank and gain in numbers as the tank matures.

 

[Bifferwine]

The bigger the tank the better, especially since you will probably have to add food to the water for the sponges. I also recommend TampaBaySaltwater.com to buy your sponges from (the site you linked to may be good also, but I don't have firsthand experience with them). TBS has lots of different sponges you can choose from and they tend to be pretty hardy.

 

[Steve Frey]

Fishy let me first thank you for taking the time to provide me with this valuable information and I think that's a really good idea to start off with fish and get some experience before taking on sponges. I've been meaning to do this for as long as I've been researching sponges but the studies and literature on them is so fascinating and "mysterious" that I've had plenty to keep me occupied, but now it's time to do my own studies and I'm looking forward to it. One of my goals is to try studying the ecosystem inside of sponges using a micro-borescope but at this point I have no idea how small of a scope I need to do that.

At The Gulf Marine Specimen Lab website they say that the sponges thrive on small amounts of brewers yeast, is it possible that that's all they would need and that I might not need the bacteria and other micro-organisms in the live rock or is that just something that's necessary to maintain the environment. Sorry for the total rookie questions. I have emailed the lab asking for additional information so maybe they will enlighten me.

They might ship, but I wonder how well they will ship. Some specimens are just prone to shipping stress and can die en-route.

Another thought I have for you is to try your hand at a FOWLR tank for 6 months and then switch it to your sponge tank. This will really allow the tank to mature and will also give you a great deal of experience in keeping a marine tank before diving in with more difficult species like sponges. Probably not something you're interested in, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. You would still do the exact same set up, just remove the fish and return them to the store when you are ready to move to sponges only. I'm thinking easy fish like a clown pair, blenny, goby, or royal gramma - not too many, just a few to get yourself into the swing of keeping stable parameters and dealing with the inevitable ups and downs of owning a saltwater tank.


EDIT: As for the live sand, yes I would add aragonite sand to the bottom of the tank (not crushed coral). You can buy "live sand" from the store but honestly it isn't very alive at that point. All live sand and live rock really mean is a population of nitrifying bacteria growing in/on them. You can use mostly dry rock and dry sand, then add a few lbs of live rock, cycle your tank, and within a few weeks the bacteria will colonize the rest of the rock and sand. Once established however, you will get additional inverts that start to reproduce and populate the sand - pods, brittlestars, snails, bristleworms, etc - all good members of a marine tank that will help control algae and eat leftover food. You don't need to add them, they usually come on on the few lbs of live rock you add to your tank and gain in numbers as the tank matures.

 

[Steve Frey]

The bigger the tank the better, especially since you will probably have to add food to the water for the sponges. I also recommend TampaBaySaltwater.com to buy your sponges from (the site you linked to may be good also, but I don't have firsthand experience with them). TBS has lots of different sponges you can choose from and they tend to be pretty hardy.

Thank you Sarah, I have a good idea what will end up happening, I'll set up a 55 gal with fish and like it too much to vacate the fish for the sponges so then I'll have to set up another one, probably bigger since bigger is better right, and I'm going to end up investing a fortune, :Dbut I'm sure it's very rewarding. I think I need the sponges in their own tank because I want to be able to induce stress on them and some are known to release toxins that can kill fish when stressed.

 

[TBrewerton]

Hey Steve,

Welcome to the site. The Live Bacteria Fishy is talking about isn't for food. This is part of the biological filter system in any marine tank.

Their role in the tank is to take Ammonia turn it into Nitrite and then Nitrate. Ammonia is highly toxic to all our tank inhabitants so this process helps to take the toxic ammonia and process it into something much less toxic. (It still amazes me haha)

Hope that helps :-)

Tim

 

[Steve Frey]

Thanks Tim, now I am getting the picture, the biological filter, this is what Fishy was trying to tell me but he didn't realize just how ignorant I actually was, but I now have a decent understanding of the overall process after spending a few hours educating myself.

 

[TBrewerton]

All good, It took me weeks to fully get my head around the "basics" of how the biological filter works - it is truly an amazing process. My tank never ceases to amaze me, the amount of little creatures that just "appear" after months and you think where the heck did that come from haha!

I think from what you have said about your fascination with the biological side of sponges etc you wont find setting up a tank boring at all - even if you took Fishy's advice and just set up a Live Rock with Fish Only tank you will be constantly in awe of what you are able to create in your own home!

Welcome to the addiction, get ready to watch your wallet get lighter - I see you already have decided to upgrade haha and you haven't even begun...

Anyway - good to have you on board and look forward to following your project (as you go keep a tank build thread to keep us all in the loop)

Tim

 

[Steve Frey]

My tank never ceases to amaze me, the amount of little creatures that just "appear" after months and you think where the heck did that come from haha!

I find that comment very interesting because in a way that's what my research is dealing with but specifically in association with sponges, when one considers the fact that there's been hundreds of microbes isolated from sponges that have yet to be found in seawater it raises the question, how can this be so, did they one day just "appear" in the sponge. I've got an idea that addresses the existence of these "sponge-specific" organisms and that's what I'm trying to do is prove that idea as being correct.

 

[yote]

Since everybody else has taken care of the biological part. :D
Keep in mind that most sponges live at depths below most coral. the photosynthetic corals any way.There for they don't need the lights that corals do.
One thing I've noticed with sponges at both the LFS and my maintenance tanks, is algae tends to grow on sponges fairly quick. I assume that it's because of the nutrients that sponges take in for food. That algae does the same as air does, it clogs the pores of the sponge, effectively starving it to death.
So you may be better not running reef lights and go with something less powerful.

 

[Steve Frey]

Well Debbi at the Gulf Specimen Marine Laboratory replied to my email and was very helpful by providing some valuable information about their sponges and associated symbionts, I'm passing this info on for anyone that may be interested.

Hi Steve

The sponges that we suggest that will have symbionic critters are: loggerhead sponge ( P-50), crumb of bread sponge (P-104), Dysidea sp (P-105)…there may be a few others, but these are your best bet. When you order, please specifiy that you are interested in the symbionts , that way we’ll know, and do our best to select the best sponges for you . It shouldn’t be too hard to maintain them…the brittlestars, polychaete worms, and pistol shrimp will stay in the sponge, and other critters may leave to find habitat in your tank. We don’t keep any of the sponges in our holding tanks for very long, as we are constantly shipping them out for orders and then collecting more… but if you don’t crowd, and have good water chemistry, feed them a good invert food…microalgae, zooplankton, enriched brine shrimp, etc they should do well. With sponges, the bigger the water volume the better. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Our office will be closed from Dec 24 to Jan 1. I will be out of the office from Dec 20-Jan 2.

Have a wonderful holiday
Cheers