Tang or not to Tang

Going to skin you a bit; you're tank is definitely too small AND you haven't done a WC in a month AND you have no skimmer. That kind of shows that you're not the most serious about wanting to do things right....yeah, your params may be okay, but that doesn't mean the organisms aren't stressed out. I'd definitely take it easy and try to introduce a fish that's going to be a bit more forgiving, and won't wipe out everything else with ich once it gets sick.

I am loathe to suggest such a thing, but a damsel might not be the worst thing to introduce! They are open swimmers, won't hide all the time, and are pretty hardy. Also, they can be found in some very colorful varieties. There are some types that show less aggression than others. My Talbot's Damsel is yellow and pink and very docile.

Get a tang as a reward when you DO upgrade (as something to look forward to) and when you have built up the experience and skill to take care of a more challenging fish.
 
I got a small yellow tang in my 29, I am really sort of sitting him till he gets moved to a 75 that my friend has, he was a free fish, so we could not pass it up, is he going to be ok in there or do I need to remove him ASAP?

Cathic, I'd be concerned about it if it ends up in there for a while....
 
Going to skin you a bit; you're tank is definitely too small AND you haven't done a WC in a month AND you have no skimmer. That kind of shows that you're not the most serious about wanting to do things right....yeah, your params may be okay, but that doesn't mean the organisms aren't stressed out. I'd definitely take it easy and try to introduce a fish that's going to be a bit more forgiving, and won't wipe out everything else with ich once it gets sick.

I am loathe to suggest such a thing, but a damsel might not be the worst thing to introduce! They are open swimmers, won't hide all the time, and are pretty hardy. Also, they can be found in some very colorful varieties. There are some types that show less aggression than others. My Talbot's Damsel is yellow and pink and very docile.

Get a tang as a reward when you DO upgrade (as something to look forward to) and when you have built up the experience and skill to take care of a more challenging fish.
I have never used a skimmer(going on 3+ years),IMO this has nothing to do with keeping a tang,or any other fish for that matter.As far as WC's go,well thats debatable too...and lets not even start on the ich issues again.We do agree on one thing,the tank is too small,but to say he doesn't care or isn't serious because he has no skimmer is silly:D
 
Seriousness does not = the ability to afford all the eauipment. Coming from a college student. but then again. sometimes i have to decide to buy groceries or aquarium stuff and as you can see my aquarium is coming along at a steady pace. But i am a biology major. lol. all things aside for those of use that cant put want in the tank we want it can be a tough pill to swallow. jsut remember, they are living creatures and even though they are fish they are your responisibility. if you think you can create an environment that is fair to the fish i say why not
 
Wc is not from lack of want it is finace related. Skimmer is a fine option for a larger tank but not a required one. If I didn't care I would have just bought the tang and complained later about the lfs selling me dieing fish. I appreciate your advice and intentions in protecting the fish, but I was trying to get some free advice a number of months down the road. I plan on qting the tang for two months and treated for ich I don't plan on buying 2 500 gallon tanks so can have an equal sized qt system(as I have not seen ANYONE do that). So let me clarify my timeline a bit better, quite soon I will have the space and finances to upgrade to something in the range of 200 - 500 gallons, a few months out I plan on buying all fish and qting them in the 40g or similiar sized bins while I get the dt setup,plumbed,cycled and aquascaped. I do plan on a skimmer(the best I can find based on reviews from here) an ATO, a WC system, something close to 300+ gallon sump with closer to 2000lbs lr. I know that seems like a large upgrade and is and will be.

Please don't mistake my questions and lack of perfect scheduling for me not carrying. Had I not cared I would have bunch of expensive sps corals and not thought about this current period of reduced finances and subsequently had it all die. If my params ever check out as less than ideal I will do what is needed to corrrect the issue.
 
I'm not so sure that buying and QTing all the livestock for an upgrade before hand,is the right idea.Theres just to many things that can come up and cause set backs.
But thats JMO.
If I was gonna upgrade,I'd wait until the new tank was ready or close to ready before buying the fish.
 
I'm not so sure that buying and QTing all the livestock for an upgrade before hand,is the right idea.Theres just to many things that can come up and cause set backs.
But thats JMO.
If I was gonna upgrade,I'd wait until the new tank was ready or close to ready before buying the fish.

After thinking about this for a while I decided that perhaps 2 or 3 100g tubs would be a better choice....something this size would allow the fish to remain if and when the DT is delayed somehow...although something of this scale will require me to purchase all of the mechanics, plan out the plumbing, etc etc ATLEAST a month in advance of the tank actually arriving. I am fairly sure the tank I am thinking off will need to be a custom made acrylic(I want a 5'x5'x5' cube) or potentially make it 2' longer and drop the depth to 36'', it will all depend on the house I buy in the next few months.

Wow putting it on paper makes me think of all that needs to be done for this, but I figure start planning 6-12 months in advance will let me get proper input and methods from everyone here. Even get skinned a few times(for which I appreciate and think I will do a WC tomorrow since I got paid, even if the normal testable toxins are not present, and my 3 coral are not super picky it doesn't mean other untested toxins are not there(but i really didn't have a choice before))

My wife requires that I complete the 40g before I can upgrade(which should all coordinate nicely as far as timing goes).
 
well, let me just say that even though I had a year experience with SW before I upgraded to a larger tank, it had a lot of set backs, and I planned the uprade for 6 months beforehand. No plan survives contact with the enemy-- or reality! So as far as the upgrade goes, I'd wait to get your fish until your tank is really up and going. it'll save you stress and money in the long run-- besides, even with a tank that big, you can't add that many tangs to a newly cycled system. they'll die. Tangs are notoriously messy critters, and they'll end up drowning in their own ammonia.

as for WC... do you test calcium/alkalinity/magnesium? It's important to remember that while toxins may not accumulate, important elements are being constantly consumed from the water. In a tank with such a small volume, the elements get consumed much faster than you think. That's primarily the purpose of water changes-- to replace lost metals (magnesium and calcium mostly).
 
I have never used a skimmer(going on 3+ years),IMO this has nothing to do with keeping a tang,or any other fish for that matter.As far as WC's go,well thats debatable too...and lets not even start on the ich issues again.We do agree on one thing,the tank is too small,but to say he doesn't care or isn't serious because he has no skimmer is silly:D

I totally disagree. Not because I think a skimmer is super critical, but because for someone new, spurning a skimmer and avoiding water changes doesn't really show me someone who is going to go the distance to keep a stressed out fish happy.

And rwynn, not to label you as that, I was just saying that's what it seems. But I dont' see why you'd want to buy the fish ahead of time and QT them before your DT is even ready. That really seems like asking for trouble. Why do you need to have everything ready to go into the DT at once?
 
I totally disagree. Not because I think a skimmer is super critical, but because for someone new, spurning a skimmer and avoiding water changes doesn't really show me someone who is going to go the distance to keep a stressed out fish happy.

And rwynn, not to label you as that, I was just saying that's what it seems. But I dont' see why you'd want to buy the fish ahead of time and QT them before your DT is even ready. That really seems like asking for trouble. Why do you need to have everything ready to go into the DT at once?

Yeah I didn't really explain what I meant very well...I was thinking if I could keep the smaller tang in the tank for an extended amount of time, why not and let it go into the bigger tank later on. I now realize for my needs I'll need much bigger QT systems anyway.

tankedchem, I don't test for those since I have a total of 3 coral, a zoa colony, a mushroom, and an acan that is thriving(or so it seems). I check my tank nearly every 30 minutes or more for anything amiss, the reason for moving everything in at once is that I really like the idea of the fish being there from the git go, plan to age the water and rock all together with the fish for a while after the QT, so...maybe this will work better(and that is the point of asking these questions here far far in advance) QT for 2 months in the few 100g bins, at the same time have the LR for the system in seperate bins for that same time, cycling the water in the bins and really aging the water nicely, then over the course of the next month or two after QT move the fish into the bins with the rock...this way once the tank is ready the water is already cycled and ready to go into the larger DT, that way there is no shock from fresh saltwater, just a roomier tank.

The grow out bins will be plumed together(no point in buying 3 or 4 skimmers and the like, plus it will make it easier to add a good flow throughout.

The reason for me wanting the fish all together from the start is that (and there will need to be more research on this) I want to try to specifically replicate a natural reef school of tangs, normally tangs are aggressive to one another in a smaller tank, but because of the number of fish in a real school the aggression levels are reduced, so..that will be the idea here, I may need a bigger tank to be able to introduce THAT level of fish, I'll need to do research on exactly when I would go from not enough, to sufficient numbers of fish to reach that reduction in aggression.

I will start a new thread so that everyone can help me determine which species would be best for this..so far in my reading the blue hippo and convict have been mentioned as accepting of others of their own kind when introduced together.

I really want to impress upon everyone reading this that I will do ALL of the research for this well ahead of ANY purchases, I consider the advice I get here to be invaluable. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing 4 months ago when I got my 40g. Now 4 months later, I have still very little experience, but a ton of knowledge that I have yet to try to apply , but I know that if I ask enough of the right questions I can piece it all together and make this work.
 
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what do you do for a living rwynn? That is such a large undertaking I just hope that your job is secure and that you are able to afford this large upgrade as you plan.

The reason I ask is that I have had my 150 and I have been sitting on it for nearly six months now trying to make sure that I have all of the required equipment to make it a success. I say patience is a virtue and a responsible owner would take into account any kind of delay whether it be something you can see...or the inevitable unseen.

Think of all the things that could affect your timeline and how long it will take for you to finalize this upgrade, cycle the tank, make sure everything is stable. Calculate how fast the fish will grow and what kind of conditions it is going to require as it grows. I think trying to get off to a running start by having the fish is completely unneccesary! I feel that if you want to make sure that you are creating a habitat that closely replicates the fish's environment, consult with mother nature! She takes her time, and she doesnt introduce life before it can be supported and neither should you. Not sure but I dont think she has a smaller ocean before she gets her larger ocean up and running! :surfing:

Just try to be patient and in turn that will make you the responsible and ethical owner that I know you can be and plan to be.

Just a humble opinion from a humble n00b.
 
I agree about being prepared, to answer the question about my work I am manager in a tech support office.I have some other stuff coming up soon outside of work that should help this along a great deal.

I imagine this tank is 18-24 months from being in the house with water in it. I completely agree about making sure all precautions are looked into in advance. The mechanics of the tank are going to as automated as possible to keep things as consistent as possible. I really don't plan on DIYing anything to minimize my own newb mistakes.

Part of throwing out a lot of my untested ideas here is so that I can let every expose flaws or point out possibly better ways to accomplish a task.

The type of fish being added to the tank will make adding them together a pretty big necessity. So the challenge as far as that goes is figuring out a way to make this happen.

If this was any other tank adding fish could take place over months and years...but...adding 1 tang at a time would result in them being killed as they are added.

Also like you said I want to make sure the tank can support the fish in ways not only waste and agression related but also because tangs are browsers of algae and such, I am thinking it will be a good idea to allow a good amount of that to accumulate before adding the fish, so how does this sound.

The grow out bins where the rock and fish will be after QT would be plumbed as the sump. This would allow the DT and the grow out to grow together, and in a way the DT would be a giant fuge for a while. Then there would be less shock moving fish from the same body of water but into a new tank....

If anyone has a good idea on how to make this happen easier please let me know..or if it is not needed that would be beneficial to know as well. :)


I am trying to determine a reasonable amount of the blue hippo tangs(because everything I have read in books and websites have mentioned them being the most peaceful and most likely to work in a multi same species school) for the tank, I am thinking something like I said in the 500g range, but really at that point adding a few inches in any direction makes it a 700g or larger, so that isn't that big of a deal, not to mention the total water volume in the sump and fuge sections will allow for a fairly large bioload.

Consider this thread a feasability study on the Tang School, if we determine it is just not possible for any reason I can always do a mixed school with the traditional timelines...(just wait until we solve this bit and move on to the lower portions of the water column)

The advantage of researching this far in advance(while have yet to buy the house or even stock my current little 40g) is that I can plan for this as best as possible and make as many right decisions as I can.

Thanks everyone for your input and assistance.
 
tankedchem, I don't test for those since I have a total of 3 coral, a zoa colony, a mushroom, and an acan that is thriving(or so it seems). I check my tank nearly every 30 minutes or more for anything amiss,
So, I've been a chemist for 8 years, and I still can't quantify metals solely using my eyeballs. Despite "only" having 3 corals, it is critical to realize that alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium are important for everything in your tank. They maintain pH in the aquarium, and if any one of those parameters is off, your pH can and will wildly fluctuate. That will result in a sudden and tragic loss of fish life. In addition, while only having one apparent sink for alk and ca2+ (your acan), you should realize that you actually have multiple sources for loss in your tank. A good example is coraline algae, which sucks up both cal and alk almost faster than corals do. In addition, you can't observe your acan forming its skeleton, so you have no way of knowing if everything looking okay really means your params are in order or not. If you choose not to do water changes, that's fine, BUT you need to test in order to establish how much your elements decrease over time. Then you will know how long it is safe to skip WCs.

the reason for moving everything in at once is that I really like the idea of the fish being there from the git go, plan to age the water and rock all together with the fish for a while after the QT, so...maybe this will work better(and that is the point of asking these questions here far far in advance) QT for 2 months in the few 100g bins, at the same time have the LR for the system in seperate bins for that same time, cycling the water in the bins and really aging the water nicely, then over the course of the next month or two after QT move the fish into the bins with the rock...this way once the tank is ready the water is already cycled and ready to go into the larger DT, that way there is no shock from fresh saltwater, just a roomier tank.

Ok, fundamental biology misunderstanding here. Cycling your tank is a way of encouraging the necessary biological cultures to grow. These cultures are not in the water column. They live in the sand, rocks, and surfaces of the tank. "Aged" water is just dirty water. Moving pre-cycled rock into your DT is fine, BUT it's no different if you cycle the rock and sand in the tank then add fish. Except, of course, you're preventing a massive amount of extra work for yourself if you do it the "traditional" way. Also, if the rock/sand stays in your bins for a long time, when you move the you're quite likely to start a new cycle all over again anyway.

The grow out bins will be plumed together(no point in buying 3 or 4 skimmers and the like, plus it will make it easier to add a good flow throughout.

The reason for me wanting the fish all together from the start is that (and there will need to be more research on this) I want to try to specifically replicate a natural reef school of tangs, normally tangs are aggressive to one another in a smaller tank, but because of the number of fish in a real school the aggression levels are reduced, so..that will be the idea here, I may need a bigger tank to be able to introduce THAT level of fish, I'll need to do research on exactly when I would go from not enough, to sufficient numbers of fish to reach that reduction in aggression.

I will start a new thread so that everyone can help me determine which species would be best for this..so far in my reading the blue hippo and convict have been mentioned as accepting of others of their own kind when introduced together.

I really want to impress upon everyone reading this that I will do ALL of the research for this well ahead of ANY purchases, I consider the advice I get here to be invaluable. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing 4 months ago when I got my 40g. Now 4 months later, I have still very little experience, but a ton of knowledge that I have yet to try to apply , but I know that if I ask enough of the right questions I can piece it all together and make this work.

I imagine this tank is 18-24 months from being in the house with water in it. I completely agree about making sure all precautions are looked into in advance. The mechanics of the tank are going to as automated as possible to keep things as consistent as possible. I really don't plan on DIYing anything to minimize my own newb mistakes.

SO, are you going to pay someone else to set up your entire system? IF not, you will definitely end up DIY'ing with a tank that large. The plumbing alone will waaaaaay longer than you can possibly anticipate. And you'll probably end up re-doing it again anyway.

Part of throwing out a lot of my untested ideas here is so that I can let every expose flaws or point out possibly better ways to accomplish a task.

The type of fish being added to the tank will make adding them together a pretty big necessity. So the challenge as far as that goes is figuring out a way to make this happen.

You're half way right. If you want tangs of the same species or similar types and colors, they should be added together. However, if you plan things correctly you can break down the additions into smaller pieces which a tank that large should be able to handle-- assuming you have enough rock. Say you wanted hippos, yellow tangs, and sailfins. It isn't necessary to add them all at once. Start with the calmest (hippos), then the next (sailfins) and finally your most aggressive/territorial fish. It doesn't need to be all or nothing.

If this was any other tank adding fish could take place over months and years...but...adding 1 tang at a time would result in them being killed as they are added.

Also like you said I want to make sure the tank can support the fish in ways not only waste and agression related but also because tangs are browsers of algae and such, I am thinking it will be a good idea to allow a good amount of that to accumulate before adding the fish, so how does this sound.

Algae accumulation is never a limiting factor in a new tank. Ever. I promise.

The grow out bins where the rock and fish will be after QT would be plumbed as the sump. This would allow the DT and the grow out to grow together, and in a way the DT would be a giant fuge for a while. Then there would be less shock moving fish from the same body of water but into a new tank....

Again, you're just making more work for yourself. And moving the rock/sand/etc can and will cause a ammonia spike.

If anyone has a good idea on how to make this happen easier please let me know..or if it is not needed that would be beneficial to know as well. :)

Tang schools are certainly possible. But your plan for acclimating them all together in dark bins is, in my opinion, just making extra work and putting these often-sensitive fish at risk. Figure out what kind of tangs you want, and research their "personalities" and sensitivities, and group them by similarity in body type and coloring. then figure a plan from there.
 
Thanks! Being very new to the hobby I know there are tons of areas that need a bunch of refining.

I was dosing purple up to add calcium since I couldn't do a WC at the time.(I knew about the coralline depleting).

I have since purchased salt mix for the next 3 months so that will not happen again. VERY long annoying story for why it was an issue in the first place.

When I was talking about aged water it was a term I had picked up from reading other people's threads, that is what I assumed people meant in a "mature" system.

Thanks for clearing up some of the things I was unsure of in regards to tangs accepting one another. Something I read in another person's thread on their website is that he buys all of his fish as juviniles around the 1'' size and has found that by growing up in this manner the fish get along much better with each other and in their habitat.

So if that is true perhaps with a tank this size that provides the natural cover from the rock I could deffinitely add the fish in batches. Say 5 or so every 3-6 months(1'' fish) That way there would be all sorts of lifecycle stages going.

I actually don't plan to move the majority of the rock from the bins to the DT, I was thinking let the DT cycle with rock and sand for a month or two and then open the water systems that had been previously seperate up, this way the sump/holding bins would mix and equalize with the DT thus providing identical water conditions for the fish as they are added. This could be expanded further by allowing new batches of fish to be added to the bins to adjust to the new water conditions prior to dealing with the stressors of adult fish. OH and I would have lighting on the bins they would be as close to a normal tank as possible, with the clear front glass.

Oh and I just realized what I meant in aged water(I think) I would expect a larger amount of plaktonic organisms to be living in the water column in a mature system than in a brand new and mostly sterile environment.

If any of that sounds wrong PLEASE correct me and I thank you again for taking the time to address each of my inconherent and poorly described plans.
 
Thanks! Being very new to the hobby I know there are tons of areas that need a bunch of refining.

I was dosing purple up to add calcium since I couldn't do a WC at the time.(I knew about the coralline depleting).

this is good, but you're forgetting a simple rule in dosing-- don't ever dose what you don't test. If the alk/Ca/Mg2+ balance is screwed, adding too much purple up could cause all of it to crash out of solution and really mess things up.

I have since purchased salt mix for the next 3 months so that will not happen again. VERY long annoying story for why it was an issue in the first place.

When I was talking about aged water it was a term I had picked up from reading other people's threads, that is what I assumed people meant in a "mature" system.

"Mature" doesn't refer to the water at all-- the water gets changed out anyway. Mature refers to growth of organisms in and on the rock, sand, etc.

Thanks for clearing up some of the things I was unsure of in regards to tangs accepting one another. Something I read in another person's thread on their website is that he buys all of his fish as juviniles around the 1'' size and has found that by growing up in this manner the fish get along much better with each other and in their habitat.

this is true, I believe. Getting fish around the same size, and as small as is feasible while still having healthy fish, is a good idea.

So if that is true perhaps with a tank this size that provides the natural cover from the rock I could deffinitely add the fish in batches. Say 5 or so every 3-6 months(1'' fish) That way there would be all sorts of lifecycle stages going.

now you've got the idea!

I actually don't plan to move the majority of the rock from the bins to the DT, I was thinking let the DT cycle with rock and sand for a month or two and then open the water systems that had been previously seperate up, this way the sump/holding bins would mix and equalize with the DT thus providing identical water conditions for the fish as they are added. This could be expanded further by allowing new batches of fish to be added to the bins to adjust to the new water conditions prior to dealing with the stressors of adult fish. OH and I would have lighting on the bins they would be as close to a normal tank as possible, with the clear front glass.

Oh and I just realized what I meant in aged water(I think) I would expect a larger amount of plaktonic organisms to be living in the water column in a mature system than in a brand new and mostly sterile environment.

There's nothing-- and I mean, nothing-- sterile about our saltwater once we add live rock to it, and livestock besides. Don't worry about that.

If any of that sounds wrong PLEASE correct me and I thank you again for taking the time to address each of my inconherent and poorly described plans.

keep doing research, and asking questions. I appreciate your ability to listen to advise.... you're on track now. :Cheers:
 
keep doing research, and asking questions. I appreciate your ability to listen to advise.... you're on track now. :Cheers:


I appreciate your advice more than you could possibly know. Getting these type questions out of the way now lets me start actually picking out specific items and solve some of the things I need to solve in order to make this work when the time comes.
 
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